Changes in Self Image

[Ami]

 As I was sobbing last week , I really "felt" the extent of hopelessness  I felt ,as a child. I was afraid to have any hope. It would have been too much to even expect a way out of this situation with my M. There was no escape, so *I* made the decision(unconsciously) to give up hope.
 Lately, in present life, I notice the same feelings of hopelessness come over me. The message behind it is "You will never get whole or emotionally well." 'You will never overcome the effects of your M". "You are destined to be in this "loop" of circular pain, shame  and hopelessness." "Why try,who do you think YOU are?"
 I feel the oppression (hopelessness) come over me and I am trying to find the "words" behind it.
  I am , also, questioning the "bad" image of myself. I read ,today, that that was shame.
  I am trying to "check out" IF I am really "bad"
  The real question is 'Am I human" or Am I bad?"
   It seems so simple and nonsensical, but it makes "emotional" sense to me that I AM bad.
   I hope by writing , I will get one step closer to seeing how "silly" and "unneccessary it is.           Ami

[Izzy_*now*]

Ami,
I thought you were normal until age 14, which is past being a child and into a teen.

Can you not go back to that point?

You're in the pity-patch right now!

[Ami]

For me, being "bad" is having "needs", I think. As I study Alice Miller, I see that there were some things I denied. One was I had needs, any. The other one is that everyone has needs.
  The feeling "bad was any need. Any thing that I needed for myself , any way that I could be whole, not fractured and any building up of myself was "bad". Hence, my natural desire to grow and be independent and trust in myself was "bad" . I hope I am seeing this with the heart, so I can change.      Ami

[Izzy_*now*]

Is it bad to be hungry, then eat? 
Is it bad to be thirsty, then drink?
Is it bad to be freezing, then go in where it's warm?
Is is bad to be hot, then take a cool bath?
Is it bad to be sick, then see a doctor?
Is it bad to be lonely, then go see a friend?
Is it bad to want new shoes, then go buy them?
Is it bad to want to be happy, then go for it?

Those are just a few basic needs and no one is bad for fulfulling them. Think about it

You are not bad for having needs.

Did you deny your children when they had these needs?

Then why are you not entitled as well?????

[James]

Ami......I do not think your feelings are "silly" or "unnecessary", they were absolutely lifesaving when you were a child. Take your feelings seriously now because they have something to tell you about your past and like most of here it is about unbearable pain. Our defenses, still in place, shield us from this still. It is, in essence, the old defenses which keep from us this old reality. They must be breached to find the truth they protect us from. The child could not survive this reality but you can as an adult when you find it. The hopelesness may be part of your childs world and you feel it now IMO. Can you feel what it was about? I was abandoned, terrorized, physically and psychologically abused, neglected, used for the needs of others and perhaps the greatest pain of all...I was not loved. These are some of the reasons I developed such strong dissociation. My mind could not let me feel reality as it was and it chose, in order to feel in control of a hopeless and life threatening situation, that I was "bad" and "disgusting". Of course this was not true but I believed it. The abuse created these feelings of shame about who I am on the deepest level with the aid of my defense system as it distorted reality so I was protected from the nightmare I grew up in. As you know, I have torn down a large part of my defense system and experienced this intense pain it was protecting me from. I am face to face with a lot of this and it's Ok now. I am accepting now my parents really do not love me, although they think they do. It is easy to see we have never had any relationship of importance in fact I don't know them and they don't know me, we are just stangers. Living with truth does hurt but I can face it now and survive.... its getting so much easier to own my feelings without shame. The worst of it all was the LIE. Now its gone and I am finding relief albeit painfully. I will support you as you do the same. I will not protect your parents. Dear Ami....it will take time to do this.......Love, James

[Iphi]

(((Ami))) and (((everyone on this topic)))

I really relate to everything shared here and shared a story from my past elsewhere that is relevant here, so you know I understand your experiences, all.

I gave up hope and desire for myself too Ami, so I did not build toward a future at all, but just drifted along without a plan or any effort to steer.  I felt that hope was fruitless, that it was wrong to leave or want to leave (the family, but in my case - dad) and desire was wrong -selfish.  Was taught that.

In reading your post Ami it struck me anew how you were coached to be an object for your mom's use to reflect upon herself always, to be available for that purpose, to never object.   Earlier I read a post where you were talking about how the Nfamily is like a cult - it is!  So true.  Reality is what they say it is - who are you going to believe - them or the evidence of your own eyes.  And you better say 'them.'   

I'm really appreciating what everyone is sharing here and I want to say I particularly love what James said, that he will 'not protect your parents.'  Thank you for that statement James. And also for saying that the lie is the worst and that living with truth is worth it. 

[Ami]

I am "blown away" by the responses to my thread.My heart is so full .
I see from feeling some of the deeper feelings , that I could NOT have needs, without being very shamed , as if a nuclear bomb was thrown on me, to wipe me out.
 Lollie, you described beautifully the process of HOW needs are dealt with, in an abusive home. We are made to feel badly about our core self b/c we have the most basic of human needs. WE become bad, NOT the person abusing us(as should be the case) Alice Miller says this is the crux of our emotional "illness". WE have taken on the "bad" role and retain it, rather than shove it back on the person who did it. That is what Alice Miller does for the child. She is the advocate for the child. She would think of YOU with your frozen toes, NOT your F. Many regular "shrinks" could tell you,"Your F didn't mean it." That would shut you down,inside.
 Your post was a wonderful gift, Lollie, a wonderful gift. Thank you.    Love    Ami

[Ami]

Ami......I do not think your feelings are "silly" or "unnecessary", they were absolutely lifesaving when you were a child. Take your feelings seriously now because they have something to tell you about your past and like most of here it is about unbearable pain. Our defenses, still in place, shield us from this still. It is, in essence, the old defenses which keep from us this old reality. They must be breached to find the truth they protect us from. The child could not survive this reality but you can as an adult when you find it. The hopelesness may be part of your childs world and you feel it now IMO. Can you feel what it was about? I was abandoned, terrorized, physically and psychologically abused, neglected, used for the needs of others and perhaps the greatest pain of all...I was not loved. These are some of the reasons I developed such strong dissociation. My mind could not let me feel reality as it was and it chose, in order to feel in control of a hopeless and life threatening situation, that I was "bad" and "disgusting". Of course this was not true but I believed it. The abuse created these feelings of shame about who I am on the deepest level with the aid of my defense system as it distorted reality so I was protected from the nightmare I grew up in. As you know, I have torn down a large part of my defense system and experienced this intense pain it was protecting me from. I am face to face with a lot of this and it's Ok now. I am accepting now my parents really do not love me, although they think they do. It is easy to see we have never had any relationship of importance in fact I don't know them and they don't know me, we are just stangers. Living with truth does hurt but I can face it now and survive.... its getting so much easier to own my feelings without shame. The worst of it all was the LIE. Now its gone and I am finding relief albeit painfully. I will support you as you do the same. I will not protect your parents. Dear Ami....it will take time to do this.......Love, James

Dear James,
 Thank you for this post. It validates what I was trying to express. It goes in to my heart and explains what I could NOT express. The hopelessness of the child with an NM (or any abuse) is so deep. You have to throw away hope and you become "gray". I am still gray,inside.
 I don't know what "gray" is exactly, but it may be the 'Why try, everything hurts". It may be 'Why get excited and full of joy, it will hurt MORE to do that than to be "dead"
 One reason I gave up ,on  life, was that everything seemed gray and it still does. I hate to say that, but it is true. There is a gray lens,inside me, and all experieneces flow from the gray .
 I am so happy to be able to talk about it here and have people understand.
  To meet a person, in their heart pain and to say,'It is OK" is a gift, with an incalculable value. Thank you, James.   Love    Ami

[Ami]

(((Ami))) and (((everyone on this topic)))

I really relate to everything shared here and shared a story from my past elsewhere that is relevant here, so you know I understand your experiences, all.

I gave up hope and desire for myself too Ami, so I did not build toward a future at all, but just drifted along without a plan or any effort to steer.  I felt that hope was fruitless, that it was wrong to leave or want to leave (the family, but in my case - dad) and desire was wrong -selfish.  Was taught that.

In reading your post Ami it struck me anew how you were coached to be an object for your mom's use to reflect upon herself always, to be available for that purpose, to never object.   Earlier I read a post where you were talking about how the Nfamily is like a cult - it is!  So true.  Reality is what they say it is - who are you going to believe - them or the evidence of your own eyes.  And you better say 'them.'   

I'm really appreciating what everyone is sharing here and I want to say I particularly love what James said, that he will 'not protect your parents.'  Thank you for that statement James. And also for saying that the lie is the worst and that living with truth is worth it. 

Thank you for that post, Iphi.
I DO feel the emptiness of a cult member. I look inside to what SHOULD be a rich world of feelings, thoughts and emotions, and there is a blank. I never really faced it or talked about it,but it IS there, a blank, where a "person" should be. It feels good to face it. It feels like a relief.
 Obviously, no one would become a "blank" if they could have maintained the "richness" of their own inner experience. They became a blank b/c they HAD to.
 My shock at learning of Scott's death taught me so much. It happened in an 'instant" and I was fully aware of it. I saw myself move from one state(conscious awareness) to another state(shock, numb, unreal). It happened in an instant and it was involuntary.
 I see how we ,as children, did the same thing. Our "problems" could be called all sorts of names,but they were "shock'(IMO)
 Many therapies put the fault on you, the victim, the TRUE victim.
 James showed me the way out, to feel those deep ,blocked feelings, and I have hope, for the first time, really, that I can heal,in a true way, not just "words".
         Love    Ami

[Ami]

You, on this thread, have given the courage to face what is inside me, today.
 Usually, I would 'run away" from my feelings in to "addictions" ,even if they are just coffee, exercise or shopping. Even cleaning the house can be an addiction(although I don't go" there" ,very often(lol)
 Now, I will sit with these feelings. They are  "Why bother?"
 I see the truth of what Alice Miller says, peaking out from behind the blinds. It WAS my M, the horrible monster. It was NOT me, the little kid. It was NOT me who was "bad. It was NOT me who was flawed. It was NOT me, who should be punished. If I had gotten beaten up by thugs, would I have "empathy" for the thugs ?
 Miller says that your empathy has to be for YOU. That is the first step to healing.
 This post may raise people's defenses. I am sorry if that happens. I am free to explore my voice and  I give others that same freedom.I expect it,also.   Ami

[Ami]

Dear Amber
 My heart tells me to go with James's (Alice Millers)way of approaching healing. There are many different schools of thoughts and theories. Ultimately, your own heart has to show you the way. James showed me the way that seems right to me. I have so happy for your breakthroughs, Amber.      Ami     

[Ami]

I am seeing that the pain is IN the lying to protect the system(our parents). WE took on the "badness", the shame and guilt ,to protect the "system" which "told" us we were loved when our bodies and souls  knew that we were being "destroyed "and it was NOT "love".Is`"love" when you have to jettison your feelings, thoughts and "self" to conform ?
    Ami

[James]

Amber/Ami....Amber , I think what you are saying is true. It is necessary to find the suppressed stuff but once it processes it is OK then to let it go. My T pointed out the same thing to me, that I was hurting myself by over doing it. A real turning point for me was expressing my rage at the parents, this broke the back of my dependency issues and then after this a lot of 'stuff" started floating to the surface and with it the pain. These  experiences had to be felt and sometimes more than once. Did you experience something similar Amber? I also experienced some of this in the form of "primals". These were shocking but the insight I gained was almost beyond belief. Down on brain/body levels this deep the changes I experienced are so real. After these I always try to go deep. There is plenty of controversy abt these. Arthur Janov says conventional therapy cannot get deep enough to produce the change many are looking for. Alice Miller who also underwent this therapy now says for some it's dangerous and may not work in the long run,(I tend to disagree with her) and she no longer advocates its use. Personally I am somewhere in-between b/c I have experienced both. I say both b/c Miller advocates expressing the rage as the key to understanding our old stuff. I do know from experience that "primals" are unlike anything I have experienced and it would be hard for someone to understand what they really are until they have experienced them. I view recovery in terms of affecting the brain chemistry.......Hope this makes some sense....James

[Ami]

Thank you, James, for that post.
For me, I have not really owned the truth, emotionally, about the suppressed stuff, EVEN though I have talked about it intellectually, many times.
 Inside me, I have not felt and faced the truth and that is what I am trying to do, at the heart level, which is ALL that really matters, as Alice Miller says.          Love     Ami

[Ami]

As`I REALLY feel and see the "truth" about my M, on a heart(emotional) level, I feel more centered. Trying to lie about her and "protect" her in actual life, as well as in my mind caused me to get  uncentered.
 When I was my healthiest in life, I saw her the MOST clearly. As I got more "emotionally ill", I saw her as "good". When I was my most healthiest, I saw her as very, very screwed up and not to be trusted. It was truth and truth is the main ingredient in mental health.Truth is painful, though.
      Ami