When we are voiceless, who are we really?

[Anonymous]

Do you ever wonder who you really are?

Sometimes I look at the path my life is taking, and I imagine that I am someone else... Someone less reserved, more spontaneous.  Lots of my choices might be different, even my career path.  Who could I be, or should I be.  Of course the grass is always greener.  Maybe If I had that life, I would long for this life that I have.

We are who we are for many reasons. But I think when we are arround Ns, they sort of suck out our individuality. We live into their images for us (positive and negative)  We do things to please others, or to spite others (either case, in reaction to them), and we don't even know who we are or would be without these influences.  

How do we go about discovering who we really are. Lately I am wondering "what if I have been wrong about who I am?" How would I know? What is the cost of making it right?  Is it possible?

[tigerlily]

I know exactly what you mean.  I tried all my life to please my mother, do what she wanted, take care of her needs, let her be the focus of everything, stifle who I wanted to be, etc.  Now when I am understanding what she was all about (narcissism) I am standing for the first time, looking at myself, and wondering how I can start all over and discover who I really am.  It's mind boggling.  I'm in a profession I don't really like, I made decisions that I shouldn't have because of what was expected of me, etc., and I don't know where to start changing things and making myself the focus of things, instead of everyone else.  It's like getting into a car for the first time and trying to drive without instructions.  I want to have the control, but I don't want to get into an accident.

[Moonflower]

...

[Cj]

I'm not really sure how to answer that. Personally, ever since I started having depersonalisation, I've started to feel I don't have a strong sense of self. At first I thought 'God, I've lost myself' (which is *literally* how it can feel). But then, the more I look at my life *before* I even experienced that, (a few years back), I'm not sure I ever have had a strong sense of self . :S
I mean, where is the line between being 'not having a self', and not really feeling much about yourself at all (I mean *really* feeling, with conviction. A conviction that fills you up, and makes you feel strong, and alive)?
The way I regarded myself, and my feelings...those things had little importance in a way, (even though I didn't realise thats how it was!).
But its something deeper. Its the standing outside yourself, and the ability to interpret how you feel: ''This is how 'I' feel'', ''this is how 'I' see things''. (And most important of all, ''It (how I see things) matters!'')
It was just never very strong. At the same time, my anxiety disorder played a huge part in inability to shape myself, in terms of relating/getting close to others, but I do feel there has been a 'lack of self' even still.
I used to spend a lot of time looking in mirrors, imagining being someone else, people I admired. Pretending, or wishing. A whole lot. I never wanted to be me. When I think about it, my fashioning myself on other people went on way to long, 'till It dawned on me I didn't really have a strong identity. Even that (acting/impersonating) I found hard, such was my self hate, and feeling of being nothing. I'd *try* to feel emotions, and feel nothing.

Even now it is cutting me to pieces (although that might just be anger/depression). I know my attitudes (at 29) on somethings', and yes, I do have attributes so evident, I can't dispute they are a real part of me, but seem to be so full of contradictions or uncertainty on how I feel about others (attitudes to thing's/people/even friends) I feel retarded. People my age, and younger, seem so tight in their skins, while I drift in and out, loosely, feeling little definition.
I used to hope for a relationship, but have realised it will be a long time before I have one, because of how I am. It would just confuse things even more becoming involved/close (not even sure that'd be possible anyway) with another person. (or am I being too negative?).
I've no doubt lack of 'real' (as opposed to 'acted out' life experience has a lot to do with this). I just feel so behind. For me, its something I feel I have to build up slowly, piece by piece.

[bunny]

The way I learned about my identity was by starting with non-threatening preferences. (This idea came from a book I read.) First, think about my favorite colors, movies, writers, music, foods, activities. This gets an identity going.

bunny

[BlueTopaz]

CJ,  I have depersonalization several times, and have for about 15 or so years.  It comes & goes.

I think identity is something so many struggle with.   For me, I have this sense of duality.

I know who I am personally, for myself, but I don’t have a strong sense of who I am when it comes to being out in the world, and interacting with others, if that makes sense.   To me, these two things are very different, and I am trying to make them the same.  Just to always be  the “me” I am in my moments alone.

I don’t quite know why “me” gets lost so easily when I venture out into the world?  Perhaps a lack of confidence in being accepted for who I am is a part of it.  I know I think somewhat differently than the masses & am definitely a non-conformist.  

I have the feeling that I am my authentic self in certain close relationships, and also have small glimpses of it when communicating with others.  Most of the time I feel like I’m putting on a persona that has remnants of the “real me” in it, but is mostly made up of  
my fears, and ways of acting that are more mechanical, that I think are acceptable for that situation.  

Bunny—I really like the idea of starting small, with simple things.  This method works so well with many things, and I think it would be great to use with identity.  Sometimes it can be that one starts at the most heated point with such complex questions, becomes burned out within 15 min., and doesn’t  want to address the darn thing again because it was just too exhausting and confusing!    

I’d like to try to look at some small preferences I have when out in the world dealing with others…

BT

[OnlyMe]

I am new, here, and was just reading this because it is something I am struggling with, as well.  
Here's a thought :  It is hard to know who we really are, because we have had to mirror back to our nparent exactly what they wanted us to say or do, or suffer the consequences.   We were not only voiceless, but invisible as well.   I find that i have spent so much of my life trying to say and do the right thing, because if nmother is happy, I am safe.  We become automatically programmed to say and do what the nparent needs.  Then, when we are alone, we can revert to being true to ourselves, for a short while.  We have missed out on all that normal interaction that most people have, and so it is harder for us to be with people for any length of time, because the casual open, trusting interaction with others is foreign to us.  We have been told, so many times, that our ideas are stupid, wrong, irrelevant, that is sometimes hard to know what we really feel or really think.  Does that sound familiar?

[BlueTopaz]

Does that sound familiar?

Hi Only Me,

I didn’t have an N parent, but conditions were that I felt voiceless and invisible as you describe, and I also got the message that my ideas were not valued at all.

I do indeed think this affected my level of self confidence, and the maintenance of a strong identity when I am relating with others.  

I also relate to the difficulty in having trusting interactions because I secretly wonder whether the other person is judging my ideas a stupid or "wrong", just as I felt as a child.

It is getting less with age (in my 30's) though thankfully!  I have no idea what, why how it happens, but in many cases one just begins to care less about what other people might think, and to take less junk from others, as you get older.  

I have only heard so much more to the contrary of my feared inner voices.  Isn't it something how deeply ingrained our parents messages become, to endure so many years later, and in the face of so many other people and things pointing to the opposite....

My own mother (the source of the initial insecurities) has even praised me in this manner many times as an adult, but yet it is still her voice of decades ago when I was a child, that I hear louder!   Incredible.

[OnlyMe]

Thank you, BT for being there!  Yes, the voice of the mother seems to be too strong, and it has a power that I still can't explain.  But the emotions attached to her criticisms, or worse, to the fact that she doesn't hear or see me, are nothing short of a rollercoaster ride.   Intellectually, I know not to absorb her cruelty, but emotionally, I feel like a little kid again, and regress to becoming voiceless and invisible.  Logically, I look at her, and wonder how on earth a little old lady can wield such power over me, but somehow, she does.

It is so exciting to get glimps of our authentic self, and I know when I am being true to myself, because it really feels different from mirroring the nparent's expectations.  It feels wonderful to be able to just be 'me'.

My friend suggested I find a chat room.  Can't keep dragging my kind husband through all this morbid stuff, day in and day out.
So glad to find you all.

[DenmarkGuy]

I know who I am personally, for myself, but I don’t have a strong sense of who I am when it comes to being out in the world, and interacting with others, if that makes sense.   To me, these two things are very different, and I am trying to make them the same.  Just to always be  the “me” I am in my moments alone.

That continues to be the real challenge, for me. And for many others, it seems. The process of bringing the innerself into alignment with the outerself is such a difficult one.

At some point, I came face to face with a question, a "choice point." And I had to ask myself if I was really here on this planet to live out someone ELSE's idea of "my life," or my OWN idea. And that allowed me to start the process of (inwardly) going from just being a "colorless void" to being "someone." And I have done a pretty good job of "Defining me." In isolation.

But then comes the next step. Taking that identity into the world, and not "selling out." But it hasn't really been about not selling out, as much as it is about realizing that you're taking a "new identity" into an "existing paradigm." I have a "life infrastructure" based on voicelessness-- and how do I (can I?) take a voice into that environment? I suddenly become very jarring with my surroundings. So then the question becomes one of whether I just "throw everything out" and start over from scratch. Tell my work, my friends, my life, my relationship "goodbye," move to a new city and start over in a place where I have no "history" and nobody knows me. There's a certain joy in entertaining such a thought, while at the same time it also feels like "running away."

--Peter

[bunny]

I have a "life infrastructure" based on voicelessness-- and how do I (can I?) take a voice into that environment? I suddenly become very jarring with my surroundings. So then the question becomes one of whether I just "throw everything out" and start over from scratch. Tell my work, my friends, my life, my relationship "goodbye," move to a new city and start over in a place where I have no "history" and nobody knows me. There's a certain joy in entertaining such a thought, while at the same time it also feels like "running away."

Can you try being your authentic self even with people who are used to the voiceless Peter? Maybe they'll like this authentic person. If they don't like it, it's kind of their problem.

bunny

[Discounted Girl]

Only Me ... I totally hear you on the dragging your husband through this -- you don't want to cause him distress, bother him, etc., but, wow, we got to talk, got to talk and work through a whole lifetime. Talking, talking, talking, is absolutely vital I think -- main problem is that unless you have been in our shoes it is very difficult to even imagine. Mostly I hear the "put a period to it and get on with it," which is fine and I do that sometimes, but the pain and abuse has etched deep into my soul and I can't "forget about it." It didn't happen in a movie or book, it happened to me and I can't detach from it. If I do detach, then I would be living in a shell and hardly worth it.

Yes, it's hard to know who you really are. I know that I was the same person when I was a kid as I am now except for the times (and when you are a child that is 100%) when the wicked NQueen was in total control. I know that I twisted and squirmed, agonized and shortened my life with stress over how to please the unpleaseable. There is no way to satisfy an N, they always want more and their source of pleasure and actually their whole existence is to feed on those who are closest to them. I picture it as a vile monster with large fangs, foaming at the mouth eating a little girl alive -- nothing left of me but my 2 little pigtails dangling from her foul smelling mouth. And my father in the background turning his head, pretending not to hear or see and if caught peeking, he would pretend to misinterpret the circumstances.

To cherish, love and desire a child is the normal, natural way of life, particularly for the female gender. Most people take that for granted, and I suppose there is no other way for them to feel. I can see how descriptions of the suffering we endure(d) might be construed as a misunderstanding, personality clashes, ignorance, defiance, yada yada, and how a listener would get sick of hearing the same old story. Truth is, Nparents are monsters, devoid of redemption, and those who don't experience the trauma they inflict can never understand.

[OnlyMe]

Hi Discounted Girl,

You are exactly right in all your comments about the nmother.  I read your message, and it was like I wrote it myself.

My husband has saved my life, because I am an 'only' child, and he is the first person to actual witness the verbal abuse - which only happened because they didn't know I had him listen on the phone.  That was the beginning of seeing the evil.  He said he didn't want to tell me that my mother was nuts, but over time, she revealed herself for the cruel woman she really is.   She would put on her nice-nice show for him, fuss over him, etc.  The only difference is that her phony charms don't work on him.  He has stood by me while I have been unpeeling the layers and layers of pain, coming to terms with the things she has done.  Now, when she does or says something that is not quite right, I can see the abuse through new eyes.  
But, I don't want to go on and on and on about it with my husband, you know?  I hate that her evil has so much power in this house.  So, being able to safely vent with you all is going to be wonderful.  It will give my sweetie a breather!  We need to be strong, to stand up to her manipulations.

Yes, the stress definitely has shortened my life as welll, and that makes me very angry.  I have lived in the 'fight or flight' mode until the past few years, and that is not healthy at all.  

And now, I almost resent the energy I have to expend just to cope with the situation, just to keep myself grounded, just to try to live my one life, with my own dreams - what a foreign concept!

I am so thankful I found this chat room.  It is my first, and it is perfect.

[Discounted Girl]

To the Peeling Onion, The Only Me  

Well, you already know how fortunate you are to have such a jewel for a husband -- he sounds totally terrific !! I would imagine she is jealous of his love for you, how could anyone love such a dumb useless thing as you, right ? I have an IQ of about 136 and that old bag has called me "stupid" so many times. Yikes, when my onion peels, after I wipe off the blood, I see how foolish I was to take her crap. I have a really long extension of "one more chances," but when I am done, I am done and I felt the extension cord snap that day 3 years ago, and it is gone for good. I do not wish her ill will, only that I never have to be in her presence ever again. To feel your own mother's hatred is something noone should ever have to experience.

Here's to us -- and the onion peeling continues. Maybe there is a big sweet, wet, luscious rose under all that -- mine is yellow, what is your's?  

[BlueTopaz]

I have a "life infrastructure" based on voicelessness-- and how do I (can I?) take a voice into that environment? I suddenly become very jarring with my surroundings. So then the question becomes one of whether I just "throw everything out" and start over from scratch. Tell my work, my friends, my life, my relationship "goodbye," move to a new city and start over in a place where I have no "history" and nobody knows me. There's a certain joy in entertaining such a thought, while at the same time it also feels like "running away."

I said goodbye to all once, and started anew.    When I was 25, 11 years ago, I moved 5 hours away, into another province where I remain now, because the inner turmoil I was experiencing was too much.

It helped me a lot, but  only because my goal was to figure out what was “wrong” with me, and I needed quiet space and distance from the people and surroundings of my childhood to do so.  

In other words, it wasn’t that I thought starting over would have things be different for me, it was really about  survival, and gaining enough emotional stability to begin to heal.    

But I’ve certainly had that relieving vision of starting over where nobody knows me, simply in order to have the chance to be different, to be the “real me”,  as well.  

Though what I learned first hand via the actual experience (it is a cliché in phraseology) of having done that for a dif. reason, is that the infrastructure that the voicelessness was born out of was/is in me.   I take it wherever I go.    

Though whatever the things are that need to be healed are always there with us, I do at least think some environments, both worldly conditions and situational (i.e. relationships) conditions we place ourselves in, can make it easier to feel more peaceful, authentic, and to heal, than others.

In that sense, I think sometimes a big-ish change can not be "the cure" in and of itself, but can be helpful.

BT