Thoughts for Seasons

[Hopalong]

What a shame you have to live so close to them, Seasons.

Wouldn't it be satisfying to just pack up a van and move away, no forwarding address?

Where would you like to live, if you could go anywhere?

love and comfort,
Hops

[seasons]

Hi Hops, Your so kind.

I've been thinking of you and your brother even more since my bully triggered me. You have been violated by your brother in so many ways.
Where did you get  the strength?
Did you ever have panic attacks over him?
Did you feel your space was in jeopardy, unsafe, treated like a child not an adult?
If so how did you turn it around?
Trusting yourself, not being scared anymore etc.
Sorry if none of this applies.

I think I realized one of my biggest fears is, someday if I'm alone FOO will try and get in my face, my life, control me, tell me what I need, what I should do etc.
Like when I was a kid, thats how they treated me. I believe it is a huge fear I carry deep inside and have only now found the words.
I was voiceless then and they expect me to be voiceless still.
She, (me) doesn't like conflict, or confrontation, lets make her uncomfortable and scared she'll squeak away and be good.
Why would I still feel this way? Afraid, of there power over me. It's power I know I can only give.
Foo makes me go right back to being like a child and all the fears I had of them.

Oh I know another problem I have been struggling with my whole life is being polite. I tend to be polite even if I start to feel the other person is not treating me right.
Like two wrongs don't make a right. If I say that ???? wouldn't that be rude? How do you kindly tell someone to get away? I have always struggled with trying not to offend someone, I feel like I would be a bully.
this above may sound silly. sorry my head is spinning with why?

I would love to be anywhere that is surrounded by gentle loving peace. love seasons

p.s. I have been stalked before and I get panicky if my space is being invaded, or I feel it may come to that.

[Juno]

How do you kindly tell someone to get away? I have always struggled with trying not to offend someone, I feel like I would be a bully.
this above may sound silly. sorry my head is spinning with why?

I would love to be anywhere that is surrounded by gentle loving peace. love seasons

p.s. I have been stalked before and I get panicky if my space is being invaded, or I feel it may come to that.

Seasons, this is something I'm struggling with too.  Someone I have to work with sometimes, less so now as I avoid him whenever possible, doesn't treat me right.  It was hard to put my finger on it but I knew it wasn't right.  One Friday a couple weeks ago, it came to a head and I knew for sure I had him pegged correctly.

But I had absolutely no words I could use to change this person's treatment of me.  It is so frustrating to have only the tool of NC when it is a workplace situation.  He is a customer and sometimes I am the only person available to wait on him.  I have no other tools yet.

I did tell someone else about it but didn't even tell the specifics of what has been happening.  I figured it would sound like I was the wrong one, the over-sensitive one.  Then yesterday, I was able to explain it more.  It makes me feel nine years old again.  Whenever I was around immature boys it almost always devolved into me being punched in the face, punched in the stomach, chased, teased, etc.  Later on I was also stalked and I have been threatened by immature or otherwise troubled people.  All my life.  But mostly in childhood.  By people who seemed to be, or I thought were, my friends.  Or who shouldn't have been all that bothered by my mere presence.

I am working on things to say in these situations.  When I told one co-worker about something a manager trainee said to me several months ago, her mouth dropped open and she said, "I would have grabbed his d--- and told him exactly what I thought of him."  Ha!  I suppose most men sense that about her and wouldn't even go there to begin with.  Me on the other hand?  I still think I need to be polite or people won't like me.  But guess what?  People who aren't going to like me, don't like me whether I'm polite or not.  Obviously that manager trainee doesn't like or respect me or he wouldn't have said what he said.

What I should have said to him right in that moment was:  "I am very offended by what you just said.  That is exactly the kind of thing a manager should never say to an employee because it is considered sexual harassment.  Don't ever talk to me like that again or I will report it and your career will be derailed."  Ah, wonderful words, six months too late.

I have to stop caring at all whether or not people like me.  That is actually a bizarre goal to have in this life if you think about it.  How do any of us really know what other people like?  And if they treat us bad--it's simple, they don't respect us.  Pretty much the same thing as not liking us.  That has to stop mattering so much.

Also, I have to stop wanting others to rescue me.  "Others" almost always disappoint me in that regard.  I have to be far more prepared to rescue myself.  I have to continue to build myself into the kind of person no one would dare to mess with.

Seasons, I think I really understand where you're coming from on this.  It is very, very hard to teach your body not to do the fight or flight thing that was so well-learned in childhood.  Being good and polite was a survival mechanism in a time when neither fight nor flight were possible.

As adults, fight is usually not possible, so we rely on flight.  Trying to get away.  But that gets old too.  That's where I'm at now.  Why do I always have to leave or avoid?  And sometimes it is physically impossible to avoid.  Why won't anybody help me or rescue me?  I guess that gets old for them.

It's really hard when all our lives we were taught, or we learned somehow, that we weren't worth the effort.  But we are.  It is also hard when we are so tired of this and now it turns out we have to summon the strength for even harder things.  But nobody is going to do it for us.  That's what I am learning so well at my job.  They will take up for the losers and pathetic ones before they will ever consider taking up for me.  Aren't our families like that, too?

It's a long journey, seasons.  You're seeing things now that you didn't see before.  That's a good start.

[Ami]

Dear Seasons
 You are expressing the dilemma of being a "Little voice(LV) . I understand so well. It is painful for me to have "boundaries". It gives me a stomach ache and I get panicked that the other person will abandon me. I guess that is good, of you WANT them to(lol).
 It is a very serious problem, though, b/c it robs us of our sense of self, which is THE most precious thing we carry in life.I am learning that now. Nothing makes up for it, not all the tea in China.
 My study of Alice Miller and Arthur Janov have been my key to finding "myself" after this long, horrible journey.
 I am on your side, Seasons, in whatever way I can to support and help you. I will never forget how kind you were to me when Scott died.
 The only real problem ,for us, Seasons, is our lack of trust in ourselves. I think we can re-claim ourselves back, from that horrible,hopeless place we were  in. I am with you, dear friend.   Love   Ami

(((((((Seasons)))))))))))

[Hopalong]

Hi Seasons,
The hardest thing I've learned in all this Nfamily stuff is that to achieve peace, I have to FIGHT. It seems like a contradiction. But the other thing is, once you really are fed up enough to speak your mind (which has nothing to do with being abusive or bad or even raising your voice) to an N...poof. They tend to wither. (Not saying my brother will, with the legal stuff. And Nmom still had her revenge on me for standing up to her...with her surprise will. Both of those are "passive" attacks in a way, since they involve using an intermediary--the law), But in terms of my own peace of mind and self-respect when it comes to speaking or not speaking or communicating with them (or not), it's been way better.

My whole relationship with my mother became vastly less stressful after I blew up at her once, when she was 95. Talk about "not nice"! The problem was I'd been stuffing and stifling it all my life. So if I knew then what I know now, natch, I'd have cultivated a habit of calmly speaking for myself and from a natural self-located place...and would have done this all my life. Not only in reaction to or frightened anticipation of someone else (incoming!).

But that's our legacy, as children/survivors of Ns. To learn healthy assertiveness.

The good news is we really can. At 5 or at 50. An absolutely pivotal experience for me was participating in, not just reading about, an assertiveness training workshop/series of classes. There's nothing I could recommend to you more, Seasons.

There's a kind of peace that means I'm safe because I'm hiding. Then there's a kind of peace that means I'm stronger than I used to be, and I am safe because I've learned how to erect boundaries (such as NC, or speaking assertively from a centered self--as opposed to being self-centered) and can protect myself.

Took forever, but I have finally realized how much better I like the latter peace. Wishing it for you too, Seasons...and with the aid of the practical assertiveness training I'm hopefully wafting in your direction, it might not be wishful thinking!

love much,
Hops

[Hopalong]

Hi Juno,
Boy do I understand that. My head is stuffed with scripts with my calm, assertive healthy verbal responses...(I really liked yours w/the possible exception notion of perhaps deleting the career being derailed threat, since the former stuff would define your boundaries and your own self-space quite clearly.)
 
One line that jumped a little for me was

I have to stop caring at all whether or not people like me

....

I instantly wanted to substitute I have to start caring a lot whether or not I like me.

I guess all self-defense, proactive well-being decisions, programmed responses (old bad or learned healthy) stem from that, huh.

love to you, you beautiful redhead...(playground JERKS. Ooo that would be a fine retirement vocation, volunteering as a school granny helper, twist a few l'il ears and yank a few bullies off their paths...hmm.)

hugs,
Hops

[sKePTiKal]

I instantly wanted to substitute I have to start caring a lot whether or not I like me.

Hops, you brilliant wise-woman you...

in 20 words or less you've just hit the nail on the head - identified in the simplest way possible - why we all self-selected into this discussion board.

We cared MORE about whether other people liked us, that we cared about whether WE liked us...
so much more, that we continued to suffer abuse (of all kinds), in the hope that "sticking it out" would finally get us "liked"....


genius.

[Ami]

Thinking of you, Seasons               Love, Ami


(((((((((Seasons))))))))))

[seasons]

Hello friends,

I don't know where to begin. First thank you for getting it...(me) lol         I feel like I really had a major meltdown, raw, open old wounds. Yuck, but maybe not. Maybe a time for me to turn the page so to speak.

Having stuff I didn't even know was still evading my body, my spirit and my peace of mind. Greatfully I feel much, much stronger tonight. Time can be so healing, even a day or two. My body is not filled with fear and panic that erupted so quickly, to the point it scared me. It is exhausting to the body.


Juno,
I can't thank you enough for your thoughtful and insightful post. Your words were moving and inspiring.

Also, I have to stop wanting others to rescue me.  "Others" almost always disappoint me in that regard.  I have to be far more prepared to rescue myself.  I have to continue to build myself into the kind of person no one would dare to mess with.

This jumped right out at me.  I know this is so full of truth.... "rescue me"  Thank you...Thank you...
I admit a bit scary yet so simple and beautiful and healing to our soul.
(Juno) thinking of you with love and strength as you continue to work through your curcumstances with your sick customer. May you prevail and rid yourself of him soon.
With appreciation and love, seasons



((Ami))

Thank you for hearing me and understanding my babbling. Yes, I felt deeply a voice that was so very little, sad to think it excists, real old pain as a young child that can erupt in as an adult. I am so sorry for your physical pain it has caused you.
You have always been so honest, and hard on yourself as you have worked to find your core and your own true self. Watching as you have peeled many layers is amazing, understanding a bit more by feeling old pain again gives me even more respect for all your hard work on paving a new road ahead for Ami as you first have to ride through the old bumpy, dark. unknown roads of the past.

You are expressing the dilemma of being a "Little voice(LV) . I understand so well. It is painful for me to have "boundaries". It gives me a stomach ache and I get panicked that the other person will abandon me. I guess that is good, of you WANT them to(lol).
 It is a very serious problem, though, b/c it robs us of our sense of self, which is THE most precious thing we carry in life.I am learning that now. Nothing makes up for it, not all the tea in China.
 My study of Alice Miller and Arthur Janov have been my key to finding "myself" after this long, horrible journey.

Ami your kind, gentle "strength" is a beautiful light to a healthy future. With a thankful heart to know you. You have given me such support, I appreciate it more than you will ever know.
 love you friend, seasons

[seasons]

Hi Seasons,
The hardest thing I've learned in all this Nfamily stuff is that to achieve peace, I have to FIGHT. It seems like a contradiction. But the other thing is, once you really are fed up enough to speak your mind (which has nothing to do with being abusive or bad or even raising your voice) to an N...poof. They tend to wither. (Not saying my brother will, with the legal stuff. And Nmom still had her revenge on me for standing up to her...with her surprise will. Both of those are "passive" attacks in a way, since they involve using an intermediary--the law), But in terms of my own peace of mind and self-respect when it comes to speaking or not speaking or communicating with them (or not), it's been way better.

My whole relationship with my mother became vastly less stressful after I blew up at her once, when she was 95. Talk about "not nice"! The problem was I'd been stuffing and stifling it all my life. So if I knew then what I know now, natch, I'd have cultivated a habit of calmly speaking for myself and from a natural self-located place...and would have done this all my life. Not only in reaction to or frightened anticipation of someone else (incoming!).

But that's our legacy, as children/survivors of Ns. To learn healthy assertiveness.

The good news is we really can. At 5 or at 50. An absolutely pivotal experience for me was participating in, not just reading about, an assertiveness training workshop/series of classes. There's nothing I could recommend to you more, Seasons.

There's a kind of peace that means I'm safe because I'm hiding. Then there's a kind of peace that means I'm stronger than I used to be, and I am safe because I've learned how to erect boundaries (such as NC, or speaking assertively from a centered self--as opposed to being self-centered) and can protect myself.

Took forever, but I have finally realized how much better I like the latter peace. Wishing it for you too, Seasons...and with the aid of the practical assertiveness training I'm hopefully wafting in your direction, it might not be wishful thinking!

love much,
Hops





Hops, you brilliant wise-woman you...

in 20 words or less you've just hit the nail on the head - identified in the simplest way possible - why we all self-selected into this discussion board.

We cared MORE about whether other people liked us, that we cared about whether WE liked us...
so much more, that we continued to suffer abuse (of all kinds), in the hope that "sticking it out" would finally get us "liked"....


genius. Ditto PheonixRising ((hugs))

Hops,

Your words of wisdom are sitting in my heart, calmly appreciating your experiences that have helped you. Your voice has grown so lovely and strong, I notice and I hear with thanks and happiness for you.
You are always so helpful. Hops I may seriously look into assertivness training. It sounds appealing to me. Where would someone look for such a workshop?
I know your strength has come from lots of pain and hearbreak and for that I am so sorry. I appreciate how much you have shared and helped me while your plate is overflowing.
Grateful to have you, you held out your hand to me first and always have been there to welcome me back or help me up.
I remember and am forever thankful. love seasons

[Leah]

((((((((((( Seasons ))))))))))))

Assertiveness training really did do wonders for me, highly recommend.

Your FOO is so like mine and so I truly do extend genuine empathy and understanding.

Love,

Leah


PS.  Oh, I forgot to mention, that I received Assertiveness Training through a women's organization, however, may also be provided at your local college (well, over here they do).

[Ami]

Dear Seasons
 The way to heal(IMO) is to do exactly what you are doing, feel the pain. It hurts,but it will heal. Under the pain are the insights which hold the key to reclaiming our lives.
 I am with you on the journey, Seasons. Thank you for your  words. You have the gift of encouragement and you are a loved and highly valued board member,lifting up us,all.   Love  Ami

[Hopalong]

Hi Seasons, believe me...I don't always have it ready like a faucet.
But I do have much more peace than I used to. Or the knowledge that I have the capacity for it, even when I'm not creating it I know how to, more.
(I'm a lot older than many folks here--except for Methizzylah--that's part of it too.)

I saw an announcement for an Assertiveness Training workshop just the other day.

In my community they are periodically given by the women's resource organizations, and sometimes by therapists who run groups.

I'd call your local mental health association and ask them what places you could call. Also Google "assertiveness training [__name of your city___]

Let me know what you find out!

much love from a talks-the-talk-can't-always-walk-it,

Hops

[Hopalong]

Amber, thanks.

You know all that too.

talks-the-talk-can't-always-walk-it love,
Hops