Author Topic: Newbie, surfacing....  (Read 2808 times)

DenmarkGuy

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Newbie, surfacing....
« on: August 19, 2004, 03:41:33 PM »
Not sure if there's some sort of "Board etiquette," but I am new here, and suppose I should offer an intro, of sorts.

I ended up here thanks to a link on another message board. I've previously been part of both "N" and "BP" survivor communities, but they always struck me as filled with too much damage and stridence. That's not really a statement about anyone else's experience, but a statement that either my experience has been "milder," or I am still stuck in some kind of denial. In any case, the term "voicelessness" made a whole lot of sense to me....

Who am I? Well, I'm a 44 y/o male. I didn't have a "horrible," childhood. In fact, most would say I lived a "charmed and privileged" childhood-- a child of older upper-middle class(+) parents, it would seem like nothing was ever lacking. Always had a roof over my head, new clothes, toys, great education, exciting trips to foreign countries, not beaten, not yelled and screamed at, not "actively" abused.... what's wrong with this picture? I've hear psychologists call it "benign neglect." The child-- that would be me-- appears to have everything, except for the fact that they are born into a situation where they are more like an "asset" than a human being.

My father was a distant and self-absorbed man whose life was all about his "image" as an International Man of the World. My mother was a social climber who'd gotten exactly what she asked for, when she married for money and status. Except.... at mid-life (before I was born), she realized that her life had no emotional content, so she coerced my dad into having a child... using the "threat" either we're having a baby, or I'm buying a black poodle. My dad loathed babies and dogs alike, but chose a child as the lesser of two evils. On a subconscious level, my mom got what she wanted-- a chance to get unconditional love and emotional intimacy from SOMEone. Cuz it wasn't forthcoming from my dad.

So how was life? The family paradigm (for many generations) was one of "Children may be seen, but should not be heard." It was more or less "meaningless" for me to have a voice.... I remember two standard "phrases" used, whenever I'd express an opinion of any kind: "Oh, what ABsolute rubbish!" and "Well, that's nice, dear. Now here's what we're actually going to do." Pitching a fit was meaningless, too; I'd just be sent to my room to "cool off" without there actually being any "action" on that fit. And so, I lost my voice.

My dad was mostly absent. He had an explosive temper, but it was generally directed at inanimate objects. My mother fluctuated between "overly present" (clingy) seeking to get the closeness from her son that her husband couldn't provide, and "absent" when she was drowning her sorrows with alcohol and/or prescription drugs.

I have thrown many $$$ at therapy to learn that my anger at my parents boil down to one single thing: "That they HAD me." That may sound brutal, but the long and the short of it is that they brought a child into a place where NO effort was made to create a nourishing enviroment for children. They just continued their "old glamorous globetrotting ways" and treated me (and expected me to be) a "little adult." And because of the endless travel and moving around, I was never really "socialized" by my peer group, but by adults.

My folks divorced when I was 12-ish, and I went to live with my mom. She soon "replaced" my dad with a wealthy retired Englishman, living in the south of Spain, so I went and spent my teen years, living in a retirement area. Again, there were no extremes of anger or happiness, just a persistent background "grayness." Between ages 12 and 18, most of my company came in the form of people over 65. At 16, I could have an intelligent conversation about oil exploration in Saudi Arabia, and new procedures for cancer treatment, but I couldn't have named the most popular "boy band" or clothing style of the moment. Sure, I went to school-- in a place where the English-language school serving 100,000 housholds had 130 students. For several years, the nearest person my age lived 7 miles away.

When I left home, I pretty much had to learn to define myself from scratch-- needs, values, desires, the whole nine yards. Of course, I didn't exactly do an exemplary job. When you have no voice (and the associated lack of self-value) it's hard to make smart choices. Nah, cancel that. It's hard to make ANY choices. OTHER people "make the choices." As did my ex (A BP with many emotionally abusive tendencies)-- a match "made in heaven".... for me, getting with the first female who was nice to me; for her, someone to be her emotional and financial wet nurse. That lasted 13 years.

Then I sortof did it again.... now in my 8th year with the daughter of an actively malicous N and an abusive father. She has a high level of self-awareness, but sometimes that isn't enough.

As for me, I am on an ongoing journey of self-exploration.... I suppose, in an effort to find voice and self-identity. It's not easy. I have found interesting prejudices along the way. The "Girls' Club." This voicelessness is evidently "Not A Male Problem," at least not in the context of the mainstream paradigm. I can feel very isolating to practically be "branded a leper" (or at the very least "deeply defective") if you happen to have these issues and are of the male persuasion. But it's all learning.

And so, here I am, learning some more.

--Peter

Michelle

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« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2004, 04:28:14 PM »
Welcome Peter!  I am glad you found your way here.  Overall, it is such a place of healing and the majority of contributers really do have caring hearts that just want to help others out in their times of need.

I look forward to hearing your voice more!

Fondly,
Michelle
Healing one day at a time.....

bunny

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« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2004, 04:53:11 PM »
Welcome Peter.

Your childhood doesn't sound like "benign" neglect. There wasn't anything benign about it.  :cry:

It was brave of you to post despite your apprehension that males wouldn't be welcome here. But I think they are. :)

bunny

phoenix

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« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2004, 05:59:43 PM »
bye

Anonymous

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« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2004, 08:02:10 PM »
Hi DG,

Welcome.  Don't worry about causing a flurry in a henhouse--there have been a few guys to surface occasionally.  I think they still lurk and check in once in a while.  Hi ya Nic, Rob, Mr T., et al  :)

Well it is very brave of you to speak up.  A lot of guys would like to pass off their voicelessness as being "strong and silent" vs. just "silent".  My brother is practically a mute, having been forcibly silenced by my Ndad.  I believe he is still unaware of the effects of our childhood, having locked himself in a soundproof fortress.  This is what you learn when you open your mouth and one of your parents rages until you close it again.  

BTW, I read a book a long while ago entitled "The Golden Ghetto" written by Jessie O'Neill, the granddaughter of the president of General Motors who was Secretary of Defense under Eisenhower.  She is now a psychologist for voiceless adult children of the incredibly affluent.  I read it because I am surrounded by very rich, very unhappy second generation bluebloods.  O'Neill is very articulate and presents a compelling case for why rich kids do not have the emotional life we think they should given circumstances we working class folk can only dream of.  [Once you hang around a while, you'll learn I'm quite the reader and recommender of self-help stuff.  :) ]

I, too, suffered from "milder" abuse--neglect--plus more regular verbal and emotional bullying and undermining of confidence.  That is, I'm a recovering doormat, discounted not discarded.  I've gone through several stages, still am, like denial "my family is great!", to shock, anger, disgust, more denial, and a bit of acceptance and "let's get on with life".  I kind of cycle through it all.

So be sure to pipe up when you enter a new phase or just want to explore whatever...we're here!  Peace, Seeker

BlueTopaz

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« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2004, 08:28:22 PM »
Totally ditto for me on both counts Phoenix hehehe...

DenmarkGuy

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« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2004, 08:16:10 AM »
Michelle, thanks for the welcome! I'm just hoping to find others who somehow "get" it.

Bunny, thanks-- I think "benign" is really just a figure of speech to distinguish "passive" abuse from more "active" abuse. My childhood (and much of my adult life) has really been shaped more by "an absence of," rather than "lots of" experience/feeling. Think "bubble boy."

Seeker, thanks for the encouraging words, and the book recommendation. Someone else suggested that book a few years ago, so maybe the Universe is trying to tell me something.

This is all a very interesting process, and one that has been going on since my last 20's/early 30's when I first became aware that something "wasn't quite right." Somewhere in there I became aware that my ex's "push-pull" emotionality and undercurrent of "entitlement" was just a re-run of BOTH my mom and dad. Up to that point, I had just maintained "family values" which meant "Problems? What problems? We don't HAVE problems in OUR family." In a sense, I am thankful for my genetic coding-- as an intuitive, empath and "feeler" I somehow "got" that things weren't right. The "downside," I suppose, is that I stuck out like sore thumb in a family that was all about "the outward appearance of things" and who considered anyone who talked about feelings to be "hysterical" and psychologists to be "quacks." It certainly meant a lot of miscommunication:

Me: Mom, I feel really sad.
Mom: But we bought you a new bike just last week!
Me: Sigh.

My worry, though, is somewhat about "getting trapped in analysis." It has been 15 years since I started this ostensible "journey to the self," and whereas I certainly have gained a high level of awareness, there seem to be many areas in which the infamous "repetition compulsion" runs strong. It's easy to point fingers at others and look for common denominators in my choices.... but ultimately I am the "common denominator." I may be able to recognize a personality disorder at 60 paces, but have I become a more integrated person? In a Zen-like sort of way, I ponder the question "Does the absence of failure necessarily imply the presence of success?" I feel like I might know how to "avoid disaster," in choices and relationships.... but that, alone, doesn't feel like much of ANYthing.

Just rambling, here....

--Peter

Portia

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« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2004, 09:19:14 AM »
Hi Peter and hello from me: 42 year old only child abused by emotional neglect and other difficult to pin-down stuff. No therapy, 8 months here, still very much learning.

I felt sad reading about you in Southern Spain. I can imagine, I have a good idea about the type of place. I was moved age 12 to a remote countryside place, tourist location but very isolated, people spoke Welsh. Folks have said ‘it must have been great, being by the sea’. And I think how lovely, southern Spain, I really like Spain. But I realise it must have been grim for you.

You reminded me, I must ask my mother why she used to say: “Oh I’ve met lots of psychiatrists and they’re all mad!” in that dismissive way. She comes from a working class northern England background – maybe she went to parties with them? I must ask! Fascinating. She might deny saying it.

Your comment: "Does the absence of failure necessarily imply the presence of success?"

No and I feel like I’m stuck in the absence of failure. And I keep procrastinating about making the next move, like getting a job. A different job to those I’ve had before. What do I want? I’m working out who I am, what I want, what I’m capable of….all the stuff I didn’t learn about myself as a kid.

But then again, is life about failure and success? Or just about living? And learning? I don’t want ‘success’ as such. I guess it’s about what these terms mean to us?....what do they mean to you?  P

bunny

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« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2004, 10:10:30 AM »
Quote from: DenmarkGuy
My worry, though, is somewhat about "getting trapped in analysis." It has been 15 years since I started this ostensible "journey to the self," and whereas I certainly have gained a high level of awareness, there seem to be many areas in which the infamous "repetition compulsion" runs strong. It's easy to point fingers at others and look for common denominators in my choices.... but ultimately I am the "common denominator." I may be able to recognize a personality disorder at 60 paces, but have I become a more integrated person? In a Zen-like sort of way, I ponder the question "Does the absence of failure necessarily imply the presence of success?" I feel like I might know how to "avoid disaster," in choices and relationships.... but that, alone, doesn't feel like much of ANYthing.


Peter,

Hi. My philosophy is: I plan to be in therapy for as long as insurance holds out and I can afford it. I was screwed up in childhood with 'benign' abuse. I will never be totally functional as a result. For me, it's like having some chronic medical condition that requires constant maintenance. I don't have any negative judgment about interminable therapy.

Not sure what you mean by success. Can you elaborate?

bunny

DenmarkGuy

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« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2004, 10:27:57 AM »
Quote from: Portia

No and I feel like I’m stuck in the absence of failure. And I keep procrastinating about making the next move, like getting a job. A different job to those I’ve had before. What do I want? I’m working out who I am, what I want, what I’m capable of….all the stuff I didn’t learn about myself as a kid.

But then again, is life about failure and success? Or just about living? And learning? I don’t want ‘success’ as such. I guess it’s about what these terms mean to us?....what do they mean to you?  P


Portia, thanks for the welcome! The south of Spain is lovely. I can go there today and visit, and recognize it as "lovely," but I also understand that a location is no more than a "container" for a life.

"Failure" and "Success," as I used them, are merely figures of speech. A former therapist once told me that people basically have two strategies in life: Either they move AWAY from pain, or they move TOWARDS pleasure. From the outside, they look very similar, but the internal motivations are quite different. My life (and I expect those of many other voiceless people) is dominated by "moving away from." That's what I mean when I talk about the "absence of failure." I know how to be "good enough" (in virtually every aspect of life) that I won't attract negative attention. Figuratively speaking, I "choose the shoes" because I know they won't hurt my feet, and not because I just loooove the shoes. My protective mechanism is to avoid "failure," prevent pain, avoid letdown.

It's just a guess, but I'd not be surprised if your mother's comment about psychiatrists has its roots in a profound fear of ANYone who might be able to look through her protective veils and see what's really inside. I have come to understand that my mother is scared to death of objectively looking at the truth of her own life. By dismissing that which she fears as "rubbish," she takes away the threat.

What does "failure" mean to me? These days, it increasingly means the result of "selling out." Failure means I've not been true to myself. Failure means I am letting someone else's voice control mine. Failure means I have subjugated my dreams, wants and desires to someone else's. Failure means I've chickened out of looking at "uncomfortable" feelings and truths of my life. Failure means "faking it" that I am OK, when I am really not.

What does "success" mean to me? I am not sure, yet. I think it means living the second half of my life in an authentic way. I think it means embracing the reality that I am a little "different" from many people, and I do have a somewhat "different" story than most. Success means that I have said "Yes, I am this person," and accepting that maybe only 5% of the world can relate to that. And maybe it's about focusing on the joy of connecting with that 5%, rather than struggling with pleasing the other 95%.

It certainly doesn't have anything to do with money, houses, cars, material wealth, status or any of that stuff.

--Peter

BlueTopaz

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« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2004, 11:52:56 AM »
Quote
What does "success" mean to me? I am not sure, yet. I think it means living the second half of my life in an authentic way. I think it means embracing the reality that I am a little "different" from many people, and I do have a somewhat "different" story than most. Success means that I have said "Yes, I am this person," and accepting that maybe only 5% of the world can relate to that. And maybe it's about focusing on the joy of connecting with that 5%, rather than struggling with pleasing the other 95%.

It certainly doesn't have anything to do with money, houses, cars, material wealth, status or any of that stuff.


Yes!   This is my journey as well Peter...   "Success" for me is a way of being, in feeling, in thought, action, in interaction... in every sense, during my stay here.   That way of being is related to the deep energy that I feel is my "soul" energy.  

BT-- a sure member of the 5%  :wink:

bunny

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« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2004, 01:21:55 PM »
Quote from: DenmarkGuy
A former therapist once told me that people basically have two strategies in life: Either they move AWAY from pain, or they move TOWARDS pleasure.


This is what Freud said. And there is a later theory that everyone moves toward relational attachments. Some of these attachments are quite painful, but a child has no choice in his/her attachment figures. The attachment type gets imprinted in the child and they keep forming these types of attachments unless they break the cycle.

Quote from: DenmarkGuy
What does "failure" mean to me? These days, it increasingly means the result of "selling out." Failure means I've not been true to myself. Failure means I am letting someone else's voice control mine. Failure means I have subjugated my dreams, wants and desires to someone else's. Failure means I've chickened out of looking at "uncomfortable" feelings and truths of my life. Failure means "faking it" that I am OK, when I am really not.


Is this failure or could it be some setbacks, disappointments and learning experiences? (reframing..)

 

Quote from: DenmarkGuy
What does "success" mean to me? I am not sure, yet. I think it means living the second half of my life in an authentic way. I think it means embracing the reality that I am a little "different" from many people, and I do have a somewhat "different" story than most. Success means that I have said "Yes, I am this person," and accepting that maybe only 5% of the world can relate to that. And maybe it's about focusing on the joy of connecting with that 5%, rather than struggling with pleasing the other 95%.


Thanks for clarifying.

I'm of two minds here.

(1) I accept that I am not the most conventional person. Sometimes there's a feeling of alienation/loneliness. On the other hand I can also feel "better than others" and "special" for being different. This is on the social plane of life. In social affairs I tend to talk to people who share interests, values, morals, attitudes. I tend to stay away from people who make me feel uncomfortable, bored, self-conscious. This is not just to avoid pain, it seems practical to me. I'm 47 and I don't have time to deal with people who suck the life out of me.

(2) I accept that as a human being I share traits with everyone else. I believe everyone has similar feelings, emotions, and problems in life. On a spiritual level I am no different from anyone else.

bunny