Dealing with Sociopaths

[Gabben]

Carolyn,

This past year I read The Sociopath Next Door, by Martha Stout.

If you do not mind  me posting this (just want to keep the topic alive ) for the sake of truth....I think that you understand, here is a review of this work:

How do we recognize the remorseless? One of their chief characteristics is a kind of glow or charisma that makes sociopaths more charming or interesting than the other people around them. They're more spontaneous, more intense, more complex, or even sexier than everyone else, making them tricky to identify and leaving us easily seduced. Fundamentally, sociopaths are different because they cannot love. Sociopaths learn early on to show sham emotion, but underneath they are indifferent to others' suffering. They live to dominate and thrill to win.
The fact is, we all almost certainly know at least one or more sociopaths already. Part of the urgency in reading The Sociopath Next Door is the moment when we suddenly recognize that someone we know, someone we worked for, or were involved with, or voted for, is a sociopath. But what do we do with that knowledge? To arm us against the sociopath, Dr. Stout teaches us to question authority, suspect flattery, and beware the pity play. Above all, she writes, when a sociopath is beckoning, do not join the game.


Thank you for bringing up this thread.

Lise

[finding peace]

Hi Carolyn,

Thanks for this thread.  I have never read this book.  I am taking some time off work, think I will go to the library. 

Our schools have instituted programs against antisocial behavior - plastered all over the walls are pictures that the kids drew designating the school a no bully zone - it is wonderful to see.

The other day my daughter came home (3rd grade) and started talking to me about Uncle Jim and inappropriate touching.  We had touched basics with her, but apparently the school had them watch a film describing an "Uncle Jim" who inappropriately touched a child, and went on to describe what was inappropriate.

She came home from school and just started talking about it matter of factly - the details were hazy, but she wasn't alarmed by it.  My only concern was that they didn't tell us ahead of time or let us preview the movie.  I would have been better prepared to answer her questions - and she did have questions.  They did send a note home telling us that they had shown the movie, but I didn't find it until after she started talking about Uncle Jim. 

I am very glad to see this in the schools - this would never have been spoken of in my day.

My next big campaign - no spanking! (Not trying to start a flame war, I know this can be a hot topic - just stating my rather strong opinion on this.)

Peace
 PS - tt - that little girl's story is so sad.  I hope the GM is a good person.  I can remember the simple kindness of people outside of my FOO as a child and I cherish those memories - while it doesn't replace true attachment, it kept me afloat.

[lighter]

::raising hand and with ya on the no spanking FP::

I'm all for positive consistent discipline and teaching, as opposed to punishment.


Lighter

[Certain Hope]

tt, I hope that little girl you encountered will be able to return to church...  so sad to think of the hand she's been dealt. Yet I know that she does have a loving Father.
Do you know of Angeltree Ministries? I think it may be a division of the Prison Fellowship ministry?
Maybe they would be glad to receive her name and minister to her, as well?
Might be something to check out, if her grandmother is willing to receive contact from them.

Peace, I hope that your little girl is calmed and better now after last night's experience... and you, too.
And I agree that the school should have offered parents the opportunity to preview that film and then sign, giving or declining permission to view it.
Seems like most schools follow such a protocol...
guess I'd want to find out what IS their policy.

Passing on the spanking issue.

Love, Carolyn

P.S.   back later with more points re: sociopathy.

[Certain Hope]

Well, first off, I never got back to include my commentary on the very first post... those first 3 points...
just some items from my own experience in encountering people who appear to have little or no conscience.
 I don't know what letter of the alphabet best applies to them, but their effects on me are the same, regardless. It's sickening to be forced to get up close and personal with one of these creatures who wouldn't recognize the truth if it lept up and bit them in the butt.

  Yes, they look just like everyone else... and it doesn't matter what title they claim.
In fact, the more they put on a show to convince you of what a people/animal/humanitarian issue-lover they are, the more you can be certain that they abuse those closest to them, keep their cat locked in the closet, and voted no on any legislation which may have offered relief to those suffering inequity.

     One is a pastor's wife who will approach you with arms wide open and cover you with honeys and dears, then undercut you the moment you cross her purposes - without a 2nd thought.
Privately, she'll claim to share your view, but then slander you behind your back in ways that she thinks you'll never discover. When you hear about it and confront her, she'll malign the character of the person who revealed her lies to you... and the web she spins just grows stickier.

Three strikes and they're out - indeed. Solid rule, that.

[lighter]

Saw this 2005 OP on the board and it reminded me of this thread, so providing it here for those who come after.

Lighter




Author  Topic: How to spot an abuser on your first date  (Read 583 times)  

Sallying Forth
Hero Member

Posts: 528

No longer a venture off the beaten path ...


    How to spot an abuser on your first date
« on: November 13, 2005, 06:31:59 PM »  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I found this information way back in the beginning of 2004. This might be a repeat from other posts. However I like the way the information is presented. Very clear and with questions.

HOW TO SPOT AN ABUSER ON YOUR FIRST DATE

Is there anything you can do to avoid abusers and narcissists to start with? Are there any warning signs, any identifying marks, rules of thumbs to shield you from the harrowing and traumatic experience of an abusive relationship?

Imagine a first or second date. You can already tell if he is a would-be abuser. Here's how:

1.  Perhaps the first telltale sign is the abuser's alloplastic defenses - his tendency to blame every mistake of his, every failure, or mishap on others, or on the world at large. Be tuned: does he assume personal responsibility? Does he admit his faults and miscalculations? Or does he keep blaming you, the cab driver, the waiter, the weather, the government, or fortune for his predicament?

2.  Is he hypersensitive, picks up fights, feels constantly slighted, injured, and insulted? Does he rant incessantly? Does he treat animals and children impatiently or cruelly and does he express negative and aggressive emotions towards the weak, the poor, the needy, the sentimental, and the disabled? Does he confess to having a history of battering or violent offenses or behavior? Is his language vile and infused with expletives, threats, and hostility?

3.  Next thing: is he too eager? Does he push you to marry him having dated you only twice? Is he planning on having children on your first date? Does he immediately cast you in the role of the love of his life? Is he pressing you for exclusivity, instant intimacy, almost rapes you and acts jealous when you as much as cast a glance at another male? Does he inform you that, once you get hitched, you should abandon your studies or resign your job (forgo your personal autonomy)?

4.  Does he respect your boundaries and privacy? Does he ignore your wishes (for instance, by choosing from the menu or selecting a movie without as much as consulting you)? Does he disrespect your boundaries and treats you as an object or an instrument of gratification (materializes on your doorstep unexpectedly or calls you often prior to your date)? Does he go through your personal belongings while waiting for you to get ready?

5.  Does he control the situation and you compulsively? Does he insist to ride in his car, holds on to the car keys, the money, the theater tickets, and even your bag? Does he disapprove if you are away for too long (for instance when you go to the powder room)? Does he interrogate you when you return ("have you seen anyone interesting") - or make lewd "jokes" and remarks? Does he hint that, in future, you would need his permission to do things - even as innocuous as meeting a friend or visiting with your family?

6.  Does he act in a patronizing and condescending manner and criticizes you often? Does he emphasize your minutest faults (devalues you) even as he exaggerates your talents, traits, and skills (idealizes you)? Is he wildly unrealistic in his expectations from you, from himself, from the budding relationship, and from life in general?

7.  Does he tell you constantly that you "make him feel" good? Don't be impressed. Next thing, he may tell you that you "make" him feel bad, or that you make him feel violent, or that you "provoke" him. "Look what you made me do!" is an abuser's ubiquitous catchphrase.

8.  Does he find sadistic sex exciting? Does he have fantasies of rape or pedophilia? Is he too forceful with you in and out of the sexual intercourse? Does he like hurting you physically or finds it amusing? Does he abuse you verbally - does he curse you, demeans you, calls you ugly or inappropriately diminutive names, or persistently criticizes you? Does he then switch to being saccharine and "loving", apologizes profusely and buys you gifts?

If you have answered "yes" to any of the above - stay away! He is an abuser.
 
 
 
 

[Certain Hope]

Dear Lighter,

Thank you so much for bringing back that post... great stuff!

Sure wish I'd had that list before I hooked up with NPD-ex. Although a couple of his oddities did manage to float through my numbed senses, it really would have helped to see them printed up in black and white, so they couldn't so easily be brushed aside.

He did all of those things - consistently - except for the criticism (at first) and the revealing of sadistic sex fantasies.
Some stuff he saved for later

Thanks again!  And I hope you're feeling better soon.

Carolyn

[lighter]

::nodding::

yup yup yup.... me too.

Lighter

[Certain Hope]

Dear Lise,

I just saw your post. Sometimes my having the posts on a thread arranged from latest to oldest can get confusing. Anyhow, thanks for your thoughts!
And yes, I definitely do want to continue studying Martha Stout's pointers for dealing with these conscience-less predators.

You wrote:

Part of the urgency in reading The Sociopath Next Door is the moment when we suddenly recognize that someone we know, someone we worked for, or were involved with, or voted for, is a sociopath. But what do we do with that knowledge? To arm us against the sociopath, Dr. Stout teaches us to question authority, suspect flattery, and beware the pity play. Above all, she writes, when a sociopath is beckoning, do not join the game.

And I know from harsh experience that's alot easier said than done, when you're a people-pleasing, unassertive, unaware codependent like I was.

Here's another of my favorites of Ms. Stout's cautions, which elaborates on what you've said:

The best way to protect yourself from a sociopath is to avoid him, to refuse any kind of contact or communication.
The only truly effective method for dealing with a sociopath you have identified is to disallow him or her from your life altogether.

Sociopaths live completely outside of the social contract, and therefore to include them in relationships or other social arrangements is perilous.
Begin this exclusion of them in the context of your own relationships and social life.
You will not hurt anyone's feelings. Strange as it seems, and though they may try to pretend otherwise, sociopaths do not have any such feelings to hurt.
You may never be able to make your family and friends understand why you are avoiding a particular individual.
Sociopathy is surprisingly difficult to see, and harder to explain.
Avoid him/her anyway.If total avoidance is impossible, make plans to come as close as you can to the goal of total avoidance.

[lighter]

You may never be able to make your family and friends understand why you are avoiding a particular individual.
Sociopathy is surprisingly difficult to see, and harder to explain.
Avoid him/her anyway.If total avoidance is impossible, make plans to come as close as you can to the goal of total avoidance.

[/i][/b]

Beared reapeating.  ::nod::

Light

[dandylife]

I'd like to add one to look for:

Do the rules apply to everyone else and not him?????


When I first met my partner and started getting serious, he insisted I throw away my photo album with old boyfriends' pictures in it. He still has his.

Does he insist you never go to bed without resolving issues, but then when he's mad - he stomps off, slams the door and won't talk to you??

Ad infinitum.

Dandylife

[Certain Hope]

I'd like to add one to look for:

Do the rules apply to everyone else and not him?????


When I first met my partner and started getting serious, he insisted I throw away my photo album with old boyfriends' pictures in it. He still has his.

Does he insist you never go to bed without resolving issues, but then when he's mad - he stomps off, slams the door and won't talk to you??

Ad infinitum.

Dandylife

Hi, Dandy,

Oh, I remember this one really well with NPD-ex... and I think it's a strong characteristic with borderline personalitty disordered individuals, as well.

I'm not sure about sociopaths, though.
Still have a long way to go with my reading, but I get the impression that sociopathic individuals are more likely to adhere to quite a strict superficial adherence to the rules....

that they want people to think that they're law-abiding citizens and show to all a mask of conformity,
all the while possessing a total lack of concern for whether or not they are violating those laws or the people around them.
Seems like it's their apparent conformity which fools so many people and allows them to swoop in under the radar and annhilate their victims.

I may be totally off base with that, but to me... this is, in great part, what sets the sociopath apart -
a complete lack of character along with a clever ability to hide that lack.

Carolyn

[changing]

Ohh- I like this list. Dandy, your insight is right on the mark- it seems that the sociopathic takes a great deal of trouble to assume a mask of "humanity" and is therefore acutely aware of the rules of conduct, which must be learned and carefully put on as an actor learns a role in order to have the desired effect, rather than incorporated into their being. If a non-sociopath strays from the script, the sociopath is acutely aware.

Lighter-I know a doctor who is conducting research into the rare genetic disease from which he suffers. There are others of the Alexander Graham Bell/ Lorenzo's Oil type who study a specific disorder in order to help an afflicted loved one. Sometimes I lose interest in the N/Sociopath/Bipolar/etc field and its many scientific and pop psychology findings and ideas. Perhaps it is because I do not care much about the Bagworm except that he leaves me alone. But often I get factoid  and llist fatigue and have a sense of dread when I try to read yet another book, article or pronouncement about Ns, etc. The field is so unscientific and populated with so many incredibly clueless types who use their dubvious credentials in a harmful or lazy manner, somewhat like those doctors in the last century, who measured skull sizes, etc and made pronouncements on a person's criminal predisposition on the basis of their "take" on the skull.

Your list is practical and certainly appears true from my experience, and should be printed on every girl's lunchbox!!

Love,

Changing

[debkor]

I can vouch for these things said:  I had personal experience of living with one.  Mine went a little more deeper then the list though.
Yes all what everyone has said applied and then,  (mine was a criminal) a next door, clean cut, all American, all American job, CRIMINAL and no one knew.. he did not appear to be anything else.  at first... for years...and years and years....

here is some things said when after caught and his reasoning.....

The crime committed was a victimless crime..... he shot off a sawed off shot gun into a ceiling so if it was not at someone there were not victims, although there were people in the place, terrified for their lives...

When there are drug dealers on the streets and driving nice cars, nice clothes, lots of money why shouldn't he get what he wants since he was a decent hard working guy and got nothing... (he made himself victim)

I was in danger and my child so he had to do what he did to protect us  (again victim) and not true..

Then started a journal.. that was about how he portrayed himself and that he was not who people though he was.. he was evil..

That is all that I had seen and it was never completed or extended any further so I don't know what it was for or why he wrote it. 

I can tell you this though.  What I know and what everyone else knows is not the extent of things he has done.  I really think he has done more and we only know what he got caught for. 

He has no conscious.    So when I say N I don't really know.  I would think more P.   

He went to jail but it is scary that he did come back out into society.   I have no contact but I wonder who he has come across and what he has done to people unaware.

I did get a phone call 2 years ago from someone who was looking for him (probably a loan company) they would not reveal themselves  and all they could tell me was he put me down as a contact person    I hadn't seen him in many years so that is NUTS and disturbing.  When his mother died my children's GM we did not attend.  We have kept no contact because when I gave my address to family when I relocated they gave it to him.  His family are good people they are just manipulated by him and that is the way I left it.  We cut off ties. 

Love
Deb

[changing]

Hi Deb-

It is tremendous that you have escaped this man, and the chldren are free of that influence and the risk he poses. The betrayal that you felt at learning about his secret life  must have been tremendous, and it is a credit to you that you have risen above the shock and trauma. How odd and disturbing that this man seems to remain unstable after all of these years, as evidenced by that phone call. I am so glad that you have made a new separate life for yourself and your children, and you should be proud of your accomplishment.

Love,

Changing