Author Topic: Healthy community  (Read 31189 times)

ann3

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Re: Healthy community
« Reply #165 on: June 22, 2008, 06:55:27 PM »
Ami Dear,

I'm back, baby!!!!!  Never left.

Love to you & SS.

love,
ann

Leah

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Re: Healthy community
« Reply #166 on: June 22, 2008, 07:05:02 PM »



(((((((((Leah)))))))))))

love,
ann


(((((((((( Ann ))))))))))))


"Welcome Back Here"

Love,

Leah
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ann3

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Re: Healthy community
« Reply #167 on: June 22, 2008, 07:15:11 PM »
Thank you, Leah, sweetheart

(((((((((((((((((((Leah))))))))))))))))))))))

Leah

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Re: Meta-Discussion
« Reply #168 on: June 23, 2008, 07:26:17 AM »

Finally, I have this stored in my favorites, from February'08  --   may or may not be heloful, again, posted with genuine good intention for the purpose of a Healthy Community.      Leah x


What is meta-discussion?

You eagerly start reading a discussion supposedly about a subject of great interest to you, only to find that instead of being about the named subject, the discussion is full of posts arguing about how to discuss, what posts should be allowed on the forum, the attributes of a particular poster, complaints about others' posts and complaints about the discussion.   Your heart sinks.   You search in vain for any on-topic posts, then give up and never bother returning to that forum or discussion again.

That is meta-discussion, and it ruins many a good discussion. For that reason, more and more discussion forum owners are asking posters to avoid meta-discussion.

Let me explain why:

Meta-discussion is second-order discussion: discussion about the discussion – for instance, about its style, its participants, the forum in which it takes place, and so on – instead of about on-topic matters.

by Sarah Fitz-Claridge   




Imagine a discussion forum whose subject is the book Atlas Shrugged, by Ayn Rand. Here are the possible kinds of discussion:      http://www.fitz-claridge.com/node/18



With thoughts and pondering on the subject of "Healthy Community" having posted the above yesterday.   I considered the adverse effect of Meta-Discussion with regard to On-Line Cyber Communication.

Thinking our loud that VESMB is a Message Board

On the world wide web we have Message Boards and Discussion Forums, therefore:

Maybe, that has a significant bearing, or not.  I am thinking that it could that have a significant bearing on the difference between someone wishing to merely "voice" and be heard and validated, and someone with a desire to engage in discussion on a topic subject?   Result being, perhaps, subsequent misinterpretation, as in a lack of awareness by the reader of the thread or posting, as to the member's reason for writing his/her thread/post ?

Of course, a member may post at any given point in time on a thread (or create a thread) with a desire to "voice" and receive validation, and also, post again elsewhere, with a desire to engage in a discussion on a topic subject.

Just thinking out loud, that it may be prudent to open ones post with a short sentence of introduction expressing what one is hoping for ......... to aid communicative understanding.

Love, Leah
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Re: Healthy community
« Reply #169 on: June 23, 2008, 07:53:27 AM »
((((((((((Ann)))))))))))  I'm very glad you've never left! 

Love,
Carolyn

CB123

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Re: Healthy community
« Reply #170 on: June 23, 2008, 08:19:54 AM »
Leah,

You make a good point, and I think that you are right. 

The problem is, I dont think that the two goals are that clear cut.  I think that many times we dont know what we want--we think we want a discussion, but it isnt until we get a negative response that we realize that what we really wanted was affirmation and validation.  At any rate, asking for validation is a more vulnerable position and I dont know if we can always admit, even to ourselves, that the sole purpose of our post is to get affirmation or validation.

On the subject of metadiscussion, I think there's a similar dynamic.  I don't think that there are really two types of discussions on the board--those that are about "real" topics and those that are metadiscussions.  After all, when we are having real discussions what we are oftentimes talking about are metadiscussions that we have experienced in 3D!  Those metadiscussions are significant (no matter where they occur) to our sense of value and our perception of the other person.  I dont think we can have a meaningful relationship with anyone else without regularly occurring metadiscussion.

My experience is that they burn themselves out--both on the board and in 3D.  After awhile, I'm sick of talking about it (and so is the other person) and we move on to something else.  In 3D, the next step is often relative silence while we readjust.  I think the same thing is happening right now on the board. 

By the same token, if I have a significant relationship with someone (or am developing one), a metadiscussion is inevitable.  Those people that I NEVER have such a conversation with, remain on the periphery of my life and, eventually, anything deeper than discussing surface topics just disappears.  I have never had a close, longtime friend that I was able to share confidences with that didnt, eventually, entail a metadiscussion.  That just seems to be part of the evolution of the relationship.

More significant, in my life, than the FACT of the discussion is how it's conducted and concluded.  Something that is terribly ironic to me at this point in my life, is how many of the conflicts I have now in my romantic relationship that are about the same things that I had in my marriage.  The DIFFERENCE is how we do it--and I include myself in that equation.  I am learning to have the metadiscussions with my sweetheart in a more healthy way, and that has made a huge difference in the overall health of the relationship. 

One thing I have learned to do is to not make the conflict itself have cosmic significance.  (Someone during the recent conflict on the board said something about how the community here was interconnected to the entire world community and that damage done here had a ripple effect into that bigger community.  That's just the kind of thing I would have thought in the past that would have fueled my emotional state.)

The very biggest thing I keep uppermost in my mind during these discussions is: what is my goal?  Is it to WIN the discussion?  Is it to prove myself right?  Is it to elicit a particular response--an apology, for example? 

When I ask myself what I want out of each discussion, I find (with my sweetheart) that what I want is a closer relationship with him.  I have found that I don't even have to be understood completely (I have realized that that is not always a realizable goal). If my goal is to build the relationship, then the way I talk to him will either further that goal or undermine it.  I used to think that a close relationship was built on sharing everything in my head and heart.  It isnt.  Everything isnt meant to be shared.  And everything isnt meant to be shared at any moment of any conversation. 

A close relationship is built on mutual respect.  Having a voice is knowing when to use it.  If my goal is to simply exercise my voice whenever and however I want to--I will have had a "voice" but I may very well not have a relationship. I don't think that the FACT of metadiscussions on the board is the problem, but rather the HOW.  What is the goal--what do I want out of the discussion?  If I just want to express my voice, then how I do it will be less important than the fact that I got to say whatever I wanted, whenever I wanted.  (I hear that goal being expressed on the board a lot)

If my goal is to build relationships where I am safe to express myself, then I can't say whatever I want, however I want to, whenever I want to.

Well, I'm leaving this post with no conclusion--but I have posted until I completely ran out of time.  So...maybe anyone who reads this can draw their own??

Love
CB
When they are older and telling their own children about their grandmother, they will be able to say that she stood in the storm, and when the wind did not blow her way -- and it surely has not -- she adjusted her sails.  Elizabeth Edwards 2010

Leah

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Re: Healthy community
« Reply #171 on: June 23, 2008, 08:49:28 AM »


Thank you, CB

And I will read through your posting and respond later, time restraint as present.

I did think some more on the subject of META-DISCUSSIONS within the confines of a message board, and I really do consider the points Sarah Fitz-Claridge highlights are poignant:

in so much as:

.... a person is eagerly trying to engage in a discussion or communication of some kind, on an on-line message board, regarding a topic subject, and meanwhile, all around are posts arguing about how to discuss, what posts should be allowed on the forum, the attributes of a particular poster, complaints about others' posts and complaints about the discussion.    Ones heart does sink.   


I wholeheartedly agree with the valid point:

That meta-discussions of this very nature do in fact ruin many a good discussion or communication engagement of any positive genuine purpose.

With the result being that of the stirring up of a whirlwind storm of conflict.


Just my own experiential thoughts appertaining to a message board, in particular, this one.

Love, Leah
« Last Edit: June 23, 2008, 08:55:51 AM by LeahsRainbow »
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sKePTiKal

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Re: Healthy community
« Reply #172 on: June 23, 2008, 10:31:26 AM »
Quote
At any rate, asking for validation is a more vulnerable position and I dont know if we can always admit, even to ourselves, that the sole purpose of our post is to get affirmation or validation.

CB's point gave me an idea. It's healing to admit to yourself that you want some validation... and after all, what is there to fear HERE about asking for it? We all understand that need, I think - even in the midst of our our own tangled webby healing processes.

I know, when someone has asked only for validation of their post - if I can, I will. If I can't - I need to restrain my "need" to offer advice or my own viewpoint.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

Leah

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Re: Healthy community
« Reply #173 on: June 23, 2008, 10:35:15 AM »

I know, when someone has asked only for validation of their post - if I can, I will. If I can't - I need to restrain my "need" to offer advice or my own viewpoint.



Superb, Amiber

I resonate with full accord, and I do think -- that in effect, that is the difference, that could make all the difference.

Here, on an on-line message board.

Great to hear from you.

Love, Leah
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Leah

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Re: Healthy community
« Reply #174 on: June 24, 2008, 07:03:26 PM »
Quote
A close relationship is built on mutual respect.  Having a voice is knowing when to use it.  If my goal is to simply exercise my voice whenever and however I want to--I will have had a "voice" but I may very well not have a relationship. I don't think that the FACT of metadiscussions on the board is the problem, but rather the HOW.  What is the goal--what do I want out of the discussion?  If I just want to express my voice, then how I do it will be less important than the fact that I got to say whatever I wanted, whenever I wanted.  (I hear that goal being expressed on the board a lot)

Hi CB,

I hear you, and resonate with full accord regarding "mutual respect"

I feel, and believe, strongly, that there is no relationship of any nature, in any circumstance, without the basic ingredient of "mutual respect" and reciprocal considerate discussion - yes, metadiscussions that ebb and flow, and take a new direction, bringing out all kinds of wonderment and refreshment, or even "healthy debate."

However, the difference is in the "nit-picking" meta-discussions i.e. writing style, spelling, grammar, punctuation, and, for stirring of dissension and strife.  I do think that may be the difference.

Acceptance and Tolerance - hand in hand with "Mutual Respect" usually works well, in my experience, and personal view.

Personally, I don't feel "mutual respect" when someone "voices" of me, at me, and over me, it is akin to drowning in the sea of life, and in all honesty, I feel humiliated and objectified.


I feel a personal preference for "Mutual Respect" with a "Voice" flowing from within oneself to another -- not rushing forth like an all powerful torrent.

These are my thoughts.


Hope all is well with you, and your family.

Love, Leah
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Leah

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Re: Healthy community
« Reply #175 on: June 25, 2008, 06:36:33 PM »


(1)    Barriers to Effective Communication

There are a wide number of sources of noise or interference that can enter into the communication process. This can occur and there is a need to understand the sources of error. In a work setting, it is even more common since interactions involve people who not only don't have years of experience with each other, but communication is complicated by the complex and often conflictual relationships that exist at work. In a work setting, the following suggests a number of sources of noise:

[I do feel that the same would apply within any on-line community setting, or indeed, any set of personal interactions]   


*   Language: The choice of words or language in which a sender encodes a message will influence the quality of communication. Because language is a symbolic representation of a phenomenon, room for interpreation and distortion of the meaning exists.   Note that the same words will be interpreted different by each different person. Meaning has to be given to words and many factors affect how an individual will attribute meaning to particular words. It is important to note that no two people will attribute the exact same meaning to the same words.


*   defensiveness, distorted perceptions, guilt, project, transference, distortions from the past

*   misreading of body language, tone and other non-verbal forms of communication

*   noisy transmission (unreliable messages, inconsistency)

*   receiver distortion: selective hearing, ignoring non-verbal cues

*   power struggles

*   self-fulfilling assumptions

*   language-different levels of meaning

*   assumptions-eg. assuming others see situation same as you, has same feelings as you

*   distrusted source, erroneous translation, value judgment, state of mind of two people


*   Perceptual Biases: People attend to stimuli in the environment in very different ways. We each have shortcuts that we use to organize data. Invariably, these shortcuts introduce some biases into communication.

Some of these shortcuts include stereotyping, projection, and self-fulfilling prophecies.

Stereotyping is one of the most common. This is when we assume that the other person has certain characteristics based on the group to which they belong without validating that they in fact have these characteristics.


*   Interpersonal Relationships: How we perceive communication is affected by the past experience with the individual. Percpetion is also affected by the organizational relationship two people have. For example, communication from a superior may be perceived differently than that from a subordinate or peer


*   Cultural Differences: Effective communication requires deciphering the basic values, motives, aspirations, and assumptions that operate across geographical lines. Given some dramatic differences across cultures in approaches to such areas as time, space, and privacy, the opportunities for mis-communication while we are in cross-cultural situations are plentiful.



« Last Edit: July 02, 2008, 12:22:00 PM by LeahsRainbow »
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Leah

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Re: Healthy community
« Reply #176 on: July 02, 2008, 12:19:13 PM »

LABELS  -  Assumptions -  Presumptions :  do not serve any healthy purpose in a community, of any table setting.

likewise,  "Attack Other Scripts"  which are truly insidious.



For a healthy community, of any setting, I cannot consider the following to be a healthy choice within the setting of any community ...


Harsh Start Ups:    Harsh start ups' put the other person in the defensive before the communication has a chance!


The Four Horsemen:   Dr. Gottman claims that certain types of negativity are more lethal to your communication:

   His four horsemen are:

           1)  Criticism:          Complaints are normal but criticism deals more with the other person's character and personality.

           2)  Contempt:       This is long simmering negative thoughts about the other person that turn into disrespect.

           3)  Defensiveness:  This approach rarely ever works and usually turns the conversation into a blame game.

           4)  Stonewalling:    When  X wasn’t willing to work at communication with Y  ... he simply crawled into his cave and the conversation stopped for the time being.



Flooding: This happens when you or other's - bombards the communication with negativity whether it is in the form of criticism, contempt, defensiveness - or any other negative approach.


Passive Agressive behavior    (Anger Expressed Inappropriately)

    * Put-downs
    * Sarcasm
    * Insults
    * Rudeness
    * Sabotage
    * Intimidation
    * Belittling Remarks


Covert Abuse

Verbal Abuse



Just my own thoughts, and personal experience thereof.

Love, Leah

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Leah

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Mutual Respect
« Reply #177 on: July 03, 2008, 07:04:07 AM »

Having given much thought to the concept of the aforementioned "Mutual Respect" - I have just read, with general avid interest, the following article, and considered it worthy of sharing.    Leah x


Mutual Respect


Relationships and Ideas

Our experience of living as individual human beings in a complex world is essentially an experience of relationships — with things, with other persons, with organisations, and with ideas.

All the troubles in the world arise from unsatisfactory relationships in which one person or group tries by one means or another to coerce another person or group into behaving in some involuntary manner. The popular word for this is "bullying".

Such relationships cause unhappiness for the individual person; they give rise to unrest among those immediately involved with that person; and they all too frequently lead to outright conflict as persons and organisations, not always immediately or necessarily affected, "take sides" in other people's quarrels.

When we trace the course of any quarrel to its roots, they are always to be found in a conflict of ideas. Human intelligence and capacity to reason about ideas can be either a blessing or a curse depending on how we use them.


Consciousness

The operation of human consciousness depends on contrasting the perceived qualities of one thing with those of another. We can discern variations in size, shape, brightness, colour, sound, smell, taste, warmth, texture, quantity, motion. If there were no such variations, we should not be objectively aware of anything at all, and objects devoid of such qualities would not exist for us. When we think about such things, our ideas are formed from a recollection of the qualities they present, or seem to present, when we observe them. I say "seem" because the senses by which we perceive qualities can sometimes deceive us.

Even so, we find it easier to form "true" or "objective" ideas about our relationships with "inanimate" objects which seem incapable of having intentions towards us than about animals which we can perceive as friendly or threatening — subjective attitudes which "colour" our ideas and influence the reconstruction of our observations. We tend to form ideas about things, and then perceive what we expect to perceive on the basis of our pre-conceived ideas.

When our minds are "made up", we become reluctant to change them, even in the face of evidence that suggests we may be wrong about something.

This tendency to subjective distortion of perception reaches its peak in our relationships with other human beings or groups ranging from neighbours to governments. Our ideas about other people are filtered through prejudices such as like and dislike, love and hate, hope and fear, admiration and contempt, friend and foe. As our own patterns of behaviour are subject to variation from one moment to the next, so we must assume that other people are subject to similar inconsistencies. Furthermore, our "raw data" about other persons often relies in part upon a more or less imperfect exchange of ideas with each other, either directly or through third parties. So we tend to form "beliefs" or "opinions" about each other based as much on our own prejudices as on observation or any "true" assessment of the character of the other person, and usually ignoring the fact that a person's character may change over time.


Introspection

Recognising the impossibility of ever "fixing" the character of any human individual, we must remain pessimistic in our hopes and expectations of a peaceful world unless we can discern, and mutually agree to apply, a few simple principles whereby to govern our conduct with respect to one another, and so co-exist peacefully despite our differences.

And because our quarrels are not so much about things as about our ideas and beliefs about things, we must start by looking within ourselves and attempt to identify the motives which cause us to quarrel.

We live in a world of relativity. Our consciousness depends on discerning differences. Hence we have an innate mental tendency towards duality and polarisation. And yet we cannot help feeling that despite the myriad contrasts which give rise to the infinite variety we enjoy in this wonderful world, there must be an underlying unity which holds the Universe together and somehow reconciles all apparent conflicts.

We will be studying ourselves and our relationships with the Universe in the hope of identifying an essential unity about which we can agree and which will make us disinclined to quarrel with each other.


Favoritism

Our tendency towards polarisation of ideas makes us liable to favour one way of looking at things rather than another, and thus lose all possibility of objectivity. I have observed this unfortunate trait even in persons with very high academic qualifications, and I have come to suspect that much of what passes for education is really indoctrination into whatever is currently accepted as orthodoxy.

If I am painting the floor of a room, I must plan to work in such a way as to finish at a door through which I can escape to the greater world outside: otherwise I shall paint myself into a corner. Our tendency to favour one line of thought or argument all too often blinds us to the validity of alternatives.


General Application

Rigid adherence to one idea while closing one's mind to its complementary alternative is a principal cause of human conflict. Individuals who favour one hypothesis tend to herd together in artificial opposition to proponents of its equally valid complement; irrational emotions are aroused; persons in either group whose commitment to the central dogma is less than total are liable to be accused of "disloyalty"; and so each such group becomes a potential army to engage in uncivil war.

Paradoxically, this unfortunate development is most likely to occur in "advanced" societies, in which larger numbers of individuals have the leisure to mull over ideas and to make converts. Thus rival, even mutually hostile, groups spring up over matters ranging in significance from sports supporters' clubs to political parties and religious sects.


Personal Integrity

Personal integrity requires that we look deeply into ourselves and try to be as objective about our own ideas, feelings, and emotions - as we expect scientists to be about the interpretation of their observations of the physical world.

Such introspection can be a painful process: but if regularly practised, it will promote the development of virtues such as modesty, tolerance, and strength of character, all of which are conducive to mutual respect and powerful antidotes to bullying.
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