Hoarding

[ch]

What is the connection with Npeople and hoarding??

My Nmother hoards and steals.  She has closets and a full basement full of her goodies.  She conceals the items very carefully, wrapped in paper in neat boxes. Most items are garage sale junk and is literally worthless. This is someone who already has 2 cars, 2 houses, 3 kids, husband, fur coats, and plenty of jewelry (her favorite), and still feels that she does not have enough.
What kind of illness is this??

The one and only, and last time i travelled with her, she hoarded my untensils while i was eating my in-flight meal.  She salivated at my metal knife, fork, and spoon, and glass/plastic cups before stealing them.  What was going through her mind??  Then she stole all the toiletries and towels before i got up each morning in the hotel. I would have to call room service to get more and hide them for my own use for the duration of the trip. If she could, i am certain that she would have taken the pillows and blankets too.  

There are plenty other examples, but i think i'll stop here.  If i told this to any other people, they would probably disbelieve me and think i was insane.  But i feel safe here and know that others know what i am talking about.

[Learning]

Hi ch,

Wow, this struck a nerve for me.  My dad is a hoarder, too.  Although he is not neat at all!     When I was growing up, our home was always filled with stuff.  Stuff everywhere.  All kinds of things.  Stuff in the garage, the basement, the closets, everywhere.  Now he lives in a small, two bedroom condo and the last time I was there (about 7 years ago), I could barely breathe in there because of all the stuff.  His SUV is the same way, filled with things.  I am not really sure what all the stuff is because I've trained myself not to look to closely (once I found something I wish I hadn't in his car).  But I have no doubt that he cannot live without all of these things around him.  Security maybe?  Actually it does kinda remind me of how my four year old plays.  She loves to take as many things out as possible and surround herself with them.  Probably normal for her age.  Maybe Ns are just stuck at that development stage.  Who knows?  But it is annoying nonetheless.

Wow ch, I'm sorry to hear that your Nmother steals from you so blatantly.  It is really unbelievable, but then again it isn't, is it?  As far as my dad taking things from me...he goes for the big stuff...like my credit rating and my identity.  He thinks that everything belongs to the "family" and he convinced me when I was 23 to put my name on his condo since his credit rating was awful.  He also put my name on a piece of property (of course with my obedient approval ) and then sold it without telling me.  He forged my name.  As I've gotten healthier, I have unentwined myself from him.  I signed the condo over to him.  In the process, I made sure that I didn't lose any money.  I think I've learned my lesson.

Thanks for a great insight, ch.

Take Care,
Lisa

[Ellie]

This topic is very interesting!

We were not wealthy at all so the things my Nmom hoarded were ketchup and mustard and sugar packets, plastic ware and straws from fast food places. There were drawers full of this stuff. And the car was full, and the camper was full!

Also, she never got rid of anything! I bet she still has her clothes packed in a suitcase from her first years married. She used to take them out and show us girls how to save all of your stuff because you may need it in the future. The clothes were smelly from years in moth balls - Bet your sweet a-- I would want to wear those again! She kept every one of our school papers she could get her hands on, and still has them stored in the attic. When asked why, she would say we would want to go back and relive our school years someday - NO FRIGGIN WAY do I want to remember those days living under their roof!

So I can accept her obsession. The problem came about when she started dictating I do the same! In my own house if she saw me use a sandwich baggie and throw it away instead of washing them like she does, she went balistic! And god forbid I throw out my used aluminum foil - wash it and straighten it and use it again baby. And she didn't throw trash out in the plastic trash bags that held the trash, she emptied the trash can holding the plastic bag in the can, then using the hose she would rinse the plastic trash can bag out and reuse forever! Thank god for Wal-Mart and KMart plastic bags! Now she keeps all of them and does actually throw the trash out in a bag because there is an abundance of little blue or white plastic bags in her house!!!!!!

I realized this behavior when I saw I was keeping clothes from 20 years ago. It was a FREEING moment when I realized I could give them away or throw them away! I didin't HAVE to keep this stuff anymore! This was my mother's issue, not mine!

The only things she stole from us was my sister's child at 4 years of age - forced an adoption. And she tried to get my kids, but that was hopeless. I wan't weak like my sister. And she stole letters and personal stuff from me that she thought was bad. She read all of my mail and if she read a letter from a friend that contained stuff she didn't approve of, she would give it to me to read, then find it later and hide it. I'm not sure if this was to be used as ammunition later in life or what. Her packrat nest was full of our personal letters and other mail.

Ndad wouldn't throw anything away either - but he wanted us to use the old stuff!!!!! When the newer electric typewriters came out (I'm dating myself) I got one but he had the old heavy manual one. Everytime I got out my new typewriter he would fuss at me to put that thing away and not waste it, use his old one - it was better.

He was in the army and had a black stamper for his belongings. When we went to camp, he would drag out this old smelly cigar box with that stinky black stamper and take everything we packed and stamp with that smelly black ink and did I mention UGLY blak stamper. He was insane with the fact that he must still use things from his army days (he was in for 4 years only).

When I had my first child my Nparents appologized that they could not send me my old high chair for my child to use. Since  I lived in Alaska at the time they thought it would cost too much to mail it. Was I ever grateful for that!!!!!

But the first visit back to their house with my little 3 month old, Nmom insisted I put my son in that UGLY old high chair. It wasn't even the nice wooden one, it was metal and plastic and cold! I refused so she took him from my arms and put him in it and said "now I've got to get a picture of that - your child in your high chair". He started falling out because there were not belts to help hold him in like the newer ones. She took my dad's leather belt and belted my 3 month old boy in so he would sit up in my old high chair!

Ns hold on to the past so much! I guess it is all they think they have. They are in love with all of their material belongings. I only wish Ndad had wanted to spend as much quality time with me as he did that ugly black stamper!

And if Nmom had loved me half as much as she loved that ugly high chair, I would have been a happy child!

[Discounted Girl]

Funny how we have different twists on the same experiences. I would love it if she had wanted to put my son in my old high chair, but where would that be? To my knowledge she never saved one single thing from my baby/childhood. She had some report cards she gave me about 10 years ago that she accidently stumbled on, along with a Bible I had when I was about 8. She didn't keep anything that I made or baby clothes I wore or shoes. Nothing that I can hold or look at now. Now that I see what I missed, I would like to have a piece of something that little girl had written or made.

I have a lock of hair from each of my boys' first haircuts and their first shoes and first spoons. Those are little things that I hope will be important to them someday, maybe that's corny. And I have a box of "some" of their schoolwork (special things) and cards they have given me over the years and a couple of letters they wrote me and Christmas ornaments they made. Those things are important to me -- I look at them and hold them and remember. I think that's what mothers are supposed to do and feel. She never saved one single thing as a memory of me, nada thing -- it's as though I never existed, so easy to discount, so expendable, so easy to sacrifice me. What a shame.  

[Ellie]

After writing my last post I received the following from a friend. I felt a moment of guilt, then realized that the person who wrote this grew up with fond memories of thier mother. I don't want to keep the things that bring pain...
Many of us have felt that pain of aloness way too early in our lives when our parents are still alive and well  

To all my "Keepers"

I grew up in the forties and fifties with a practical parent, my mother, God love her, who ironed Christmas wrapping paper and reused it and who washed aluminum foil after she cooked in it, then reused it. She was the original recycle queen, before they had a name for it.

It was the time for fixing things...a curtain rod, the kitchen radio, the screen door, the oven door, the hem in a dress. Things we keep. It was a way of life, and sometimes it made me crazy. All that re-fixing, reheating, renewing, I wanted just once to be wasteful. Waste meant Affluence. Throwing things away meant you knew there'd always be more.

But then my mother died, and I sat in my kitchen that Sunday afternoon reading her old handmade cookbook in a binder. I was struck with the pain of feeling all alone, learning that sometimes there isn't any more. Sometimes, what we care about most gets all used up and goes away...never to return. So...while we have it... it's best we love it....and care for it..... and fix it when it's broken.....and heal it when it's sick.

This is true.....for marriage..... and old cars..... and children with bad report cards.....and old friends... and dogs with bad hips..... and aging parents ...and grandparents.
We keep them because they are worth it; because we are worth it. Some things we keep. Like a best friend that moved away ..or a classmate we grew up with. There are just some things that make life important, like people we know who are special..... and so, we keep them close!

I received this from someone who thinks I am a 'keeper', so I've sent it to the people I think of in the same way.

[Moonflower]

...

[Ellie]

My Nmom has lots of memorabilia from our childhood, but will not give it up. I guess it's her way of holding onto us. She has hundreds and hundreds of pictures of us, but I have 2 of me as a baby. I took them without permission. She gave me a small box of nicknacks I was forced to keep over the years and she gave me my yearbooks from high school after she had read everything written in them for 10 years. She has all of the school pictures, papers, and baby clothes. I have a few report cards, but that's about it.

She and Ndad starting buying bonds for us as children and finally gave me mine when I was married and had my children. They said I might be responsible now to spend the money wisely (at age 35).

They have also bought bonds for my children as gifts for every birthday. They put the kids name and their name on the bonds so we could not touch them. I have never asked for them, and could care less if we ever see them - we have the kids college funds going strong at this point. She made a comment a few years ago when we were just starting this journey discovering their abuse that I could sue them like others were doing but we would not get much because they were so poor, but the kids could have their bonds - maybe that would make us happy. That was 5 years ago - not another word since. My kids are 14, 12, and 9. I guess they also have 20-30 years to go before they get their birthday presents.

[Anonymous]

Hoarding is a type of obsessive-compulsive disorder.

If you do an internet search, I'm sure you'll get a lot of information about hoarding. It's a mental illness.

bunny

[ch]

Wow, those were really good stories which brought back alot of memories for me as i am trying to further understand the mentality of hoarding.  I have similar background and stories, and can resonate with everyone who wrote. I quite agree that she must be stuck as a four-year old.

Those bond stories reminded me of my Nmother too. They love to get those for some strange reason despite the fact they hardly keep up with inflation. Did anyone have any experience where their Nperson had trouble with the concepts of inflation and depreciation as well?

For example, one time, my mother tried to sell her 10 year old laptop for  the same amount as the cost.  My father and i tried to convince her that she would be very lucky and should be very grateful if she could get $50 for it, but she insisted that it was worth its original price tag of $1000 and would not get rid of it for a penny less!!  So she had had that obsolete, slow-moving, and extremely heavy computer-laptop collecting dust for all these years. I would have gladly given it away much sooner.  

Whenever going shopping with her, she was always frustrated with the weak purchasing power of today's dollar as opposed to 20 years ago.  She always complained that things were too expensive, and didn't like that i reminded her that she was making more money every year with annual raises to keep up with inflation.  She would yell at the sales people with nasty remarks.  Finally, she kept most her shopping to yard sales, and continued tormenting the people by nickling and diming them. it is the most embarrassing experience to accompany her to a yard sale.

I was traumatized as a child when my Nmother gave away my favorite possession which was a figurine perfume bottle made by AVON. Without any regard to my feelings, she just gave it away to a neighborhood playmate who admired it in passing, and never replaced it no matter how hard i pleaded with her.  I think it hurt so much that i never again got attached to any material  things ever again.  I was 6 years at the time.
In contrast to me, i have always noticed how attached she is with things, and has resorted to stealing toilet tissues, napkins from fast food restaurants, and office supplies from the office, among other things.  i got so used to it that it didn't hurt much whenever she took  paintings from my room. but when she came to my office and wanted things from there, that was the last straw for me.  

Also, she  tried to find a good reason to visit me at my boyfriend's apt on numerous occasions.  Finally, i caught on to her plan, so i made excuses to avoid burglarizing my friend's apt.   There really is no end to this maddening behavior.

I have discoverd that i had hidden too much of my TRUE self in her presence in order to conform and soothe her anxieties.  I am always doubling as both CHILD and PARENT to her.  Its no wonder that i am so exhausted and have made conscious decision to forego childbearing.  Add to the fact that i never found Mr. Right since i was so busy living up to Nparents' expectations. And it was a bad experience to witness the dysfunctional raising of my younger siblings and to help out so much during the babysitting years.  Oh, its so sad how they have ruined my childhood. I'm just glad i'm done with dealing with them now. Nothing will faze me now.  Purging old feelings and distorted views is very helpful.  Thanks everybody for sharing!!!

[Anonymous]

Hi everyone,

I'm glad Ellie handled the guilt quickly.  There is a difference between keeping memorabilia, being frugal, and naked hoarding.  My crazy SIL collected lint.     Yep.  And kept a bucket in the shower.  She also recycles wrapping paper and likes to use "occasion" paper for the wrong occasion.  She displayed all of her birthday cards on the mantle for weeks to show everyone how loved she was.  She keeps the newspapers stacked for a week in chronological order before reading them.  I think "borrowing" things and keeping them is a way of keeping some kind of connection, as annoying as that is.  

Mrs. Winchester of  Winchester Mystery House fame like to buy whole bolts of fabric for one dress, so no one could have the same fabric (even though no one would see her and she sees no one.)  There’s also the idea of “I have it and you don’t”.  This thought is particularly disturbing when women break up with their boyfriends who think “if I can’t have you, no one else will either.”

My T finally turned the lightbulb on for me regarding giftgiving with Ns.  "Everything is an opportunity for ***** [N’s name]"  

The bond gift is a way to look more generous than you really are.  I forget exactly how they work, but they take forever to mature.  I once started a spreadsheet to figure out how much they were worth at that point in time and gave up.  It was pennies.

SIL was also a master at being really generous with things she got for free at her office.     If you accepted, you were in her debt and she was out nothing.  Clever, huh?  

On the other hand, my mother didn't keep much memorabilia, but that was a result of her military style upbringing and constant mobility.  Had to travel light.  I think it is also a result of her stepmother's Nability to treasure them.

ciao, Seeker