Boundaries - and Faith

[Certain Hope]

My own current review and exploration of boundaries is now focused on re-examing and re-evaluating these fences and gates from a Christian perspective. The best way I know to do that is to consider what Jesus did.

Now, whether you think that Jesus was just a good man, or a mortal prophet, or whether you believe that He is God incarnate, the living Lord….. it seems most folks agree that He set a pretty good example.
Personally, I believe that Jesus Christ is Lord … Savior and King… God of all… but I'm not here to preach or to proselytize.
My point is that Jesus (imo) does not in the least resemble the milktoast image with which He is often portrayed in our time.
Seems to me that meekness is often confused with weakness.... resulting in the sort of "cult of nice" mentality (recently mentioned here on the board)
 in which evil prospers, by default!

To me, the full efficacy of the truth - spoken clearly and decisively - is a demonstration of boundaries in action, as illustrated in the Bible passage quoted below. This is, imo, a wise, wholesome, and proper method of confronting error.

There are many more examples in Scripture, but I’ll begin with this ~ Matthew 23 ~ the entire chapter...
 because this is the passage which most convinced and convicted me, personally, when I was given up to the chains of religion, instead of relationship with God. I was totally decrepit and bound, yet preaching and teaching religion (not true Christianity), all the while boozing it up and feeling quite superior to those whose beliefs did not coincide with my own. It was during this era that I met NPD-ex, so in a way, he really was the fruits of my labor.
And so I know, from personal experience, that this passage can shine light into the darkness of hypocrisy and open the way into new life…. Or not.

Was Jesus attached to the consequences when He first spoke it?
I know that He cared.... that He loved these people.
Did His love and caring prevent Him from speaking up?
No way.
And I am so very glad that it didn't... because if He had not spoken these same words into my heart, I would still be trying to reach God through religion… dead inside and utterly unaware. This is proof positive to me, personally, that unpleasant and quite inconvenient truth can change a life, when one has ears to hear.
Anyhow, this thread isn't about religion or even about God - it's about boundaries - and I think that Matthew 23 is an excellent example of the use of clear verbal boundaries that aren't mushy or squooshy or even a smidgen fuzzy.

Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, saying:

 "The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them. 

"They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger.
"But they do all their deeds to be noticed by men; for they broaden their phylacteries and lengthen the tassels of their garments.
"They love the place of honor at banquets and the chief seats in the synagogues,  and respectful greetings in the market places, and being called Rabbi by men.  "But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers.  "Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.  "Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ. "But the greatest among you shall be your servant.

Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.

 "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.
 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you devour widows' houses, and for a pretense you make long prayers; therefore you will receive greater condemnation.
 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.
 "Woe to you, blind guides, who say, `Whoever swears by the temple, that is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple is obligated.'

 "You fools and blind men! Which is more important, the gold or the temple that sanctified the gold?  "And, `Whoever swears by the altar, that is nothing, but whoever swears by the offering on it, he is obligated.'
 "You blind men, which is more important, the offering, or the altar that sanctifies the offering? "Therefore, whoever swears by the altar, swears both by the altar and by everything on it. "And whoever swears by the temple, swears both by the temple and by Him who dwells within it.  "And whoever swears by heaven, swears both by the throne of God and by Him who sits upon it.

 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!
 For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.  "You blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!
 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full of robbery and self-indulgence.
 "You blind Pharisee, first clean the inside of the cup and of the dish, so that the outside of it may become clean also.
 
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness.
"So you, too, outwardly appear righteous to men, but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, and say, `If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.'  "So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets.  "Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers.

 "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?"
 "Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.  "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.  "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.  "Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! "For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ` Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!'"

edited to change title

[Certain Hope]

Just so that this doesn't take on a surreal atmosphere,
I do see what's going on across the board on the threads about Matthew and about Intrusiveness.

 I have acknowledged within myself how I feel about it...
and I have written to Dr. Grossman to express to him that I see this nonsense as another clear violation of the Non Contact which I've implemented with the two members involved. Dealing with it, from a Board perspective, is in Dr. G's hands.  For me, life goes on.

This thread is not about any personalities on this board. It is about life. My life.
Perhaps someone else can benefit... and for that reason, and because I do have good friends here, I will continue to share.

Thanks.

Sincerely,
Carolyn

[Certain Hope]

As I was saying, Jesus' words to the crowds of religious folks finally cracked my heart wide open.

Even once NPD-ex was out of the picture, I still operated under many of the same prideful delusions, "working" in a Christian chatroom, still drinking, and still thinking that I was empress of all that was good and true. Really, I did. I even listened to the Bible AnswerMan... (that makes it official!) until this passage hit me and God spoke to my heart and said...
"I didn't make you to be a heresy hunter. Just get to know Me."
About a year later, He showed me that I didn't need to drink anymore, either.
All this time I'd thought it was about storing up the right ways... when it was really, actually, all about letting go of the wrong.

And then there's the Sermon on the Mount... turning the other cheek and all. How do boundaries fit into that?   Back in my religious days, it was the beatitudes which kept me under N's foot.
I actually knew from very early on that he was not right... but I had pledged myself to him and would not go back on my word. Now that is religion!

Here's the beginning of an old message that's helped me to see these things in a new light:

In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus makes an astounding statement that, over
the centuries, has led to an enormous amount of debate about his meaning.
Matthew 5:38-42

38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘AN EYE FOR AN EYE, AND A TOOTH FOR A
TOOTH.’ 39 “But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps
you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40 “If anyone wants to
sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also.

Jesus says don’t resist an evil person, and if someone asks for something, give it
to him. Jesus says, don’t resist and don’t set limits on evil. Some of us have
asked ourselves, “is this really what Jesus wants us to do?” Now, we find in
Jesus’ own life something very interesting. He does something opposite of what
he says here in the Sermon on the Mount. Do you remember before Jesus went
to the cross when Jesus was on trial before the High Priest and was struck by an
officer and how he handled that?
John 18:23 tells us, Jesus answered him,
“If I have spoken wrongly, testify of the wrong; but if rightly, why do you
strike Me?”
Does this look like turning the other cheek to you? Instead of turning the other
cheek, Jesus challenges the officer’s strike. On another occasion, Jesus again
teaches something opposite of turning the other check when he says in
Luke 17:3 “Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents,
forgive him.   Here again, rebuke doesn’t sound like turning the other cheek, but
instead resisting evil. We may wonder how we can reconcile Jesus’ teaching in
Luke 17 with what he said in the Sermon on the Mount about not resisting evil.
The answer is that Jesus is teaching two different responses to evil. Jesus
provides wisdom for each of us to know how to respond to evil in each individual
case that we encounter. Sometimes the wise response to evil is to turn the other
cheek and let people have what they want, even when it seems unjust. Like
when Jesus allowed himself to be crucified. At other times, the wise response to
evil is to resist evil directly by setting limits on it. Of these two different
responses, this morning we are going to focus on protecting ourselves from bad
things and preserving good things by setting limits.


more later......

[Izzy_*now*]

hi Carolyn

I am happy you have this straightened out regarding a BV. They are definitely worth watching for

Love
Izzy

[Certain Hope]

Thanks, Izzy.

Love,
Carolyn

[lighter]

I'm still thinking all this over, Carolyn: /

Lighter

[teartracks]

Hi Carolyn,

I dig!

tt

[Certain Hope]

Hi, Lighter .... me, too... still thinking. This is the first time I've ever tried to put the whole picture into black and white... of where I was and through... to where I am now.  And then... to where I want to be??  That is the question... lol.

Let me know what you come up with, okay?


Hi, tt...     thanks!   It's not easy for me to move out of the swamp of details into that bigger picture, but I'm trying to learn from you!

Love,
Carolyn

[teartracks]

Hi Carolyn,

Isn't it good to know that we're not called to be compliant doormats? 

You've got me rethinking my views.  I feel strengthened by your comments.

tt



 

[Certain Hope]

Hi Carolyn,

Isn't it good to know that we're not called to be compliant doormats? 

You've got me rethinking my views.  I feel strengthened by your comments.

tt



 

Hi, tt,

This feels like some of the most practical study I've ever done, really... and I'm so glad if it's registering with you, too!

My pastor did a message last year about the Real Jesus... who He is and what He stands for.
It made as much of an impact on me as anything I've ever heard... and alot of this line of thought comes from that teaching.
Jesus is not a wimp. When He walked this earth, He did not let people steam roll over Him and He never, ever tolerated wrong or lies.
He's not a people-pleaser and He doesn't sweep messes under the rug.
Why not?
Because that is not the loving thing to do.

Here's some more, from where I left off last time and it's kinda long, but I don't know when I'll have a chance to get back and post more segments:

How can we create boundaries?

We can create boundaries, with our words.
The most basic boundary setting word is “no.”

Many passages of Scripture urge us to say “no” to others’ sinful treatment of us
(such as Luke 17 when Jesus said, “if your brother sins, rebuke him.”
The word “no” is a confrontational word.
God wants us to confront people and say, “No, that behavior is not OK.”

Can you think of someone in your life that you need to begin saying “no” to?

Perhaps they are treating you in a disrespectful way,
raising their voice at you, using profanity around you, not keeping their
commitments to you, asking more than you have the resources to give.
In those cases you can set a boundary by saying, “No, that behavior is not OK.”

We can easily recognize the sin of the person who is mistreating us.
But we are also sinning if we allow the mistreatment and we don’t set boundaries on their behavior.
On the one hand, we need to set boundaries, on the other hand,
perhaps you are in the opposite situation and you need to apologize to someone
for violating his boundaries.

In addition to saying “no,” another boundary we can use is physical distance.
Wecan physically remove ourselves in order to replenish ourselves physically,
emotionally, and spiritually, after we have given to our limits.
On some occasions (such as in Mark 6:30-32) Jesus left the crowds he ministered to, to be alone so
that he could replenish himself.

We can also use the boundary of physical distance in order to avoid harm.
This is referred to in Proverbs 22:3 The prudent sees the evil and hides himself,
But the naive go on, and are punished for it. This Scripture shows that we
can physically remove ourselves from a situation in order to set a boundary. We
can physically remove ourselves from those who continue to hurt us and go to a
safe place.

Boundaries help to keep the good in and the bad out.

However, some of us have a different problem. We have bad on the inside and
good on the outside. Those of us in this situation need to be able to open up our
boundaries to let the bad out and let the good in. The way this happens is to
have gates in the fences of our boundaries. Boundaries are not impenetrable
walls. The Bible does not say that we are to be walled off from others, but that
the fences of our boundaries need gates. Through this gate, through interaction
with Jesus and others, the good can come in and the bad can get out. We may
have some sin that we are struggling with that God wants us to confess to him or
to others. Or perhaps we are hurting inside because of some loss or stress in
our lives. We can confess that to God or others. When we do these things we
can get forgiveness and healing as we read about in the book of James.

James 5:16
Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another
so that you may be healed.

Is there bad in you that you need to get out so it can be dealt with, such as sin or
hurt? Is there good outside of you that you need to let in, such as forgiveness
and healing? In addition to opening the gates of our boundaries by confessing
our sin or hurt to get it out and receive forgiveness and healing, God also wants
us to open the gates of our boundaries so we can give love to others and receive
love from others. Paul speaks about this to the Corinthians.

2 Corinthians 6:11-13
11 Our mouth has spoken freely to you, O Corinthians, our heart is opened
wide. 12 You are not restrained by us, but you are restrained in your own
affections. 13 Now in a like exchange—I speak as to children—open wide to
us also.

Paul says in verse 11 that his heart is opened wide to the Corinthians.
In effect, Paul is saying that he has opened the gates of his boundaries to the Corinthians.
Paul is not closed and self-protective toward the Corinthians, but wants to give
love to them and receive love from them. He is asking for the same openness so
that they can give love to him and receive love from him.

When we find safe people that we can open up to and be ourselves with then we can experience
this same giving and receiving of love. Boundaries are not to inhibit this giving
and receiving of love, but to enhance it.

[dandylife]

Carolyn,

You wrote, "When we find safe people that we can open up to and be ourselves with then we can experience
this same giving and receiving of love."

Yes, I think that's the key.

Little lessons turn up in unexpected places. My partner is a counselor/therapist and so I see alot of paperwork in that regard as I work with/for him. And on his intake forms for new patients, it has the analysis grid that helps identify the "questionable" people in their life - the possible abusers.

The grid asks,

"Who demanded you communicate with them?"

"Who refused to communicate with you?"

"Who demanded affection?"

"Who refused you affection?"


So, these are good questions to ask about the people who are supposedly your friends and loved ones.

I wish you good luck on your journey to peace. It sounds like you are well on your way!

Dandylife

[Izzy_*now*]

Hi Carolyn,

"When we find safe people that we can open up to and be ourselves with then we can experience
this same giving and receiving of love."

Sounds good to me too!!!
Love Izzy

[Certain Hope]

The grid asks,

"Who demanded you communicate with them?"

"Who refused to communicate with you?"

"Who demanded affection?"

"Who refused you affection?"


So, these are good questions to ask about the people who are supposedly your friends and loved ones.

I wish you good luck on your journey to peace. It sounds like you are well on your way!

Dear Dandy,

These are so simple and clear... thank you!

Looking back, I can see how I've run counter to each one of those points in attempts to reverse the effects... instead of seeing them as the danger signals they are! When you believe in your heart that you were made to please others, all that lies before you are hoops and hurdles to be conquered. If you're determined (aka stubborn) and longing for acceptance, a person can sure knock herself silly in trying!

Dandy, when I first came to this board and found some acceptance, I would gush all over the place.
Everything was love, love and hugs, mooshy squooshy knows-no-bounds "just please don't hurt me" sort of approach.
It wasn't a put-on, at all. It was just pure gratitude for not being squashed like a bug in a place where I did not feel the least bit up to par. 
At times, I still do feel that way... it's a hard habit to break.
But now I see it's only appropriate to express it to those who have proven to be safe and appropriate to receive it gracefully and not twist it against me.

That means, now the love and hugs and gratitude which I'm able to express when someone strikes a chord within me and resonates...
is not attached to strings of black and white.
What I mean is - - they don't have to prove themselves to be agreeable in every way. We can have lots of matters of difference, and the love stands... because there are no demands for total agreement.
And if they are truly safe - - - it is likewise for them.

Hope that makes sense...
been struggling to express the whole mooshy squooshy gushy dilemma for some time and thought if I could just put it out here, maybe it would fall into place.

Thanks!

Carolyn


P.S.   (((((((Izzy)))))))) thanks for stickin with me on this thread that I know is not your cup of tea. I appreciate you.

Love,
Carolyn

[teartracks]

Hi Carolyn,


As I was saying, Jesus' words to the crowds of religious folks finally cracked my heart wide open.

Even once NPD-ex was out of the picture, I still operated under many of the same prideful delusions, "working" in a Christian chatroom, still drinking, and still thinking that I was empress of all that was good and true. Really, I did. I even listened to the Bible AnswerMan... (that makes it official!) until this passage hit me and God spoke to my heart and said...
"I didn't make you to be a heresy hunter. Just get to know Me."
About a year later, He showed me that I didn't need to drink anymore, either.
All this time I'd thought it was about storing up the right ways... when it was really, actually, all about letting go of the wrong.

One of the most beneficial actions I took during what I call the 'middle period' of my recovery was to join in a Celebrate Recovery group.  It is an outreach of Saddleback church in CA.  There are parts of your 'story' that remind me so much of John Baker's.  Here's a snippet and a link: http://www.celebraterecovery.com/?page_id=4

But you see, there was this problem. I had to be the best in everything I did.

Because deep down inside I never felt good enough for my parents, my teammates, my girlfriends or anyone. So if I wasn’t good enough for them, how could I ever be good enough to serve God? I must have missed the Sunday sermons on Jesus’ unconditional love and freely given grace. I was a walking and talking paradox: A combination of the lowest possible self-esteem, which I tried to cover up with the worlds largest ego.

Believe me, that’s not a very comfortable feeling inside. The best way I can describe the feeling is a pain, a burning emptiness, a hole, right in my soul. I wrestled with God’s call and judged myself “unworthy” to enter the ministry.

After High School I went to the University of Missouri. When I packed for my Freshman year I took my non-existent self-esteem with me. I joined a fraternity and soon discovered the solution, or at least, what I believed to be the solution for my life’s hurts - alcohol. From the first drink it worked. I fit in! For the first time in my life I felt like I belonged. It wasn’t long and I was majoring in Business Administration and minoring in Partying.
I met my wife Cheryl at a fraternity-sorority football game, and despite lots of warning signs she agreed to marry me in my Senior year. We didn’t want to wait because the Viet Nam war was in full swing and we new after college that I’d be called into the service.  Little did Cheryl know what the next 19 years would have in store for her. After graduation I joined the Air Force and was chosen to be a pilot.

I attended Officers Training School and in 90 days I learned to act like an Officer and drink like a gentleman.

Love,

tt

[Certain Hope]

One of the most beneficial actions I took during what I call the 'middle period' of my recovery was to join in a Celebrate Recovery group.  It is an outreach of Saddleback church in CA.  There are parts of your 'story' that remind me so much of John Baker's.  Here's a snippet and a link: http://www.celebraterecovery.com/?page_id=4

Dear tt,

Thank you. I read John Baker's story and I do see alot in common with his past attitudes and outlooks. I'll continue to explore that link more thoroughly, too... the eight principles of recovery are excellent.  There's no group here in our area, but that doesn't mean there couldn't be one started up... or even another group, of similar principles and goals...
if I would just explore options.
I'll think about that...

Thanks again.

Love,
Carolyn