Author Topic: Evolution of some sort~~~~~?? Help!  (Read 1843 times)

Izzy_*now*

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Evolution of some sort~~~~~?? Help!
« on: July 05, 2008, 12:27:43 AM »
Hi
I watched a Movie "Hostel". I never expected it to be so ghastly gruesome. It was about 3 young men, early 20s, I think , backpacking through Europe. They were strangers to each other but met up before the movie begins. All they have on their minds is "nailing every woman they can get on this trip". I can leave the blood and gore out here.

I watched another movie, "Hollow Man", about scientists discovering a 'serum' that when injected could make a person invisible--- not nearly as tame as The Invisible Man of earlier years. In HM, while invisible he was able to ring a girl's doorbell, enter her apartment and rape her. Well that would be traumatic! How do you tell the police? I haven't seen the end. I am disgusted.

Because of these two movies, I began to thing about when I was , say 17-21, the late 50s and nudity was not in regular films. If lovemaking were to take place, it was 'Fade to Black".

So I began to think of why there was such a change in morals? Why all these disordered people? When did it start? How did I miss it? What about the guy, in 1969, who was so angry that I said "No" he crashed the car disabling me! Hmmmm. Somewhat the  entitlement felt by the guy(s) in the movies above?

So I thought also about TV and Leave it to Beaver, and Father Knows Best. The wives stayed home and wore shirtwaists, pearls, high heels and a frilly apron. Long gone now!

Then I was in hospital and a gal friend from 2 jobs ago came in with stuff and one was Cosmopolitan Magaziine. Now I was 30 years old and a mother and was not inexperienced per se, but BOY! Was I inexperienced! A model was wearing a crocheted dress and no underwear. I thought it was my eyes. There was more and I realized I must have the woman's version of Playboy! (which I had never seen, but had heard of.)

I checked tonight about the "Women's Movement":

Sexual discrimination was outlawed in the United States through the Civil Rights Act of 1964 in the hopes of allowing women to rise in the working world once proper experience has been achieved. (Wiki)

My daughter was born in '64 and I missed the movement and it must have made the men mad!

Then I saw a movie called Thelma and Louise and was fascinated but still unable to dig deeply into the plot and come out with this: "quote"

The scene in Thelma and Louise that I though was the most effective at creating a feminist critique was when the two women finally pull off the road to confront the truck driver. The truck driver seemed to represent an exaggerated male stereotype. This stereotype (“macho man”) could be derived from his mud flats containing the outline of a woman’s body, his obscene hand and tongue gestures, and his inappropriate comments to the women (“ready for a big dick” or “ready to get serious”). As the truck driver gets ready to go meet Thelma and Louise for what he thinks will be a sexual rendezvous he grabs some condoms and removes his wedding ring. Louise begins talking to the driver and commenting that he has some very poor manners and owes them an apology. To this the driver seems confused and dumbfounded and tries to laugh them off. When the two decide that this man will never apologize and probably continue to behave in the same way they shoot out his tires and explode the truck. The “death” of the truck, a phallic symbol, is the symbolic castration of this man. Then, as if adding insult to injury, Thelma steals his hat and the two drive off.   

Oh yes, I remember that scene!

A current movie in comparison to the female star's previous movie. quote

At this point, I’m not quite sure what to do with Brenda Blethyn, and not just because she's become an extended replay of the whining, monstrous mother she portrayed more than a decade ago in Mike Leigh’s Secrets & Lies. What makes her such a liability for anything other than the crassest comedies is her desperate need for attention: incapable of sharing the limelight, she sucks the oxygen from every scene, leaving her costars gasping on the fringes like landed fish. As Jean, the vulgar, delusional comedienne who dominates Cherie Nowlan’s shrill dramedy, Blethyn puts a ravaged face on the struggle between aging and arrested development. But neither Keith Thompson’s trite script nor her own bombastic acting style allow us to probe the more interesting corners of her dysfunction. Chewing both her sons’ testicles right along with the scenery—she even intrudes on her retarded son’s bath-time to ensure he isn’t playing with his duckie—Blethyn makes Jean a black hole of maternal need. Never mind that beneath the postmenopausal shrieking lie uninvestigated themes of far greater interest than Jean’s self-infatuation (there is real pathos, for example, in her estranged husband’s attempts to reach out to his sons); it's a movie with no higher aspirations than a group hug and a rousing chorus of “Nutbush City Limits.” —JC

I think I might be asking if the Women's Movement, the demand for equality, castrated the men and drove them  to the lack of respect for women, the denigration they showed, the lack of respect for men that women show, the castration in words, the men's rape in words...

Where am I going with this? I don't know. Can anyone see where I'm going? I am invisible and my eyelids are transparent so I must keep my eyes closed.

Regards
Izzy


 
« Last Edit: July 05, 2008, 12:30:54 AM by Izzy_*now* »
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teartracks

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Re: Evolution of some sort~~~~~?? Help!
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2008, 12:45:18 AM »



Iz,

Get ready.  I don't have any answers, but I think you've got a hot topic here.

tt

Certain Hope

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Re: Evolution of some sort~~~~~?? Help!
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2008, 12:56:30 AM »
Quote
I think I might be asking if the Women's Movement, the demand for equality, castrated the men


Yes.  Because equality does not mean same-ness, but that's what it's come to mean,  I think.

The feminization of society, a 'la Oprah.

i m o

I am grateful that I'm not a man.

Carolyn

teartracks

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Re: Evolution of some sort~~~~~?? Help!
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2008, 02:22:35 AM »
Hi Iz,

Because it is the fourth of July weekend and because your thread is largely about women, I wanted to enter this snippet on one of the most significant woman of the twentieth century.   

1)   During World War II she headed the War Department's Women's Interest Section for a short time and then became the Director of the Women's Army Auxiliary Corps (later the Women's Army Corps), which was created to fill gaps left by a shortage of men. The members of the WAC were the first women other than nurses to be in uniform. Hobby achieved the rank of colonel and received the Distinguished Service Medal for efforts during the war. She was the first woman in the Army to receive this award.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oveta_Culp_Hobby

2)    Oveta Culp Hobby

Born January 19, 1905

Killeen, Texas

Died August 16, 1995

Houston, Texas

Director of the Women's Army Corps

Oveta Culp Hobby was an attorney and a journalist who became director of the Women's Army Auxiliary Corps (WAAC). On July 1, 1943, WAAC was given full military status, making it part of the U.S. Army. The unit was renamed Women's Army Corps (WAC) and Hobby became the first female commanding officer in the U.S. Army. She was commissioned a WAC colonel in 1943 and remained as director until July 1945. In January of that year, Hobby received the military's Distinguished Service Medal for outstanding service to her country during World War II (1939–45).

President Dwight D. Eisenhower (1890–1969; served 1953–61) called Hobby back to Washington, D.C., in 1953. Eisenhower appointed her as administrator of the Federal Security Agency.

http://www.enotes.com/wwii-home-biographies/hobby-oveta-culp


3)   b]Oveta Culp Hobby[/b]

Oveta Culp Hobby (1905 - 1995) was born in Killeen, Texas. She received her education at the Mary Hardin Baylor College for Women in Texas, and from the University of Texas Law School where she received a law degree in 1925. Immediately after graduation she became parliamentarian for the Texas House of Representatives, and Assistant City Attorney in Houston. In 1931 she married William P. Hobby, former Governor of Texas, and Publisher of the Houston Post. Following her marriage she helped her husband run the Post, until 1941, when Mrs. Hobby went to Washington, D.C. as a $1 a year executive, to head of the War Department's Women's Interest Section. From 1942 to 1945, she served as Director of the newly created Women's Army Auxiliary Corps.

World War II was waged on land, on sea, and in the air over for approximately six years. Fighting a two-front war, supplying men and all needed supplies for the war effort, while sending lend-lease material to the Allies, created a critical and obvious drain on the resources of the United States. Over 150,000 American women eventually served in what would become known as the Women's Army Corps (WAC). Both the Army and the American public initially had difficulty accepting the concept of women in uniform. However, political and military leaders, realized that women could supply the additional resources so desperately needed in the military and industrial sectors. Given the opportunity to make a major contribution to the national war effort, women seized it. Members of the WAC were the first women other than nurses to serve within the ranks of the United States Army.They were led by Colonel Oveta Culp Hobby, the director of the Women's Army Auxiliary Corps which later became the Women's Army Corps.

As a result of the success she achieved at this position, was awarded the Distinguished Service Medal. Following World War II, Mrs. Hobby returned to Houston to help her husband run the Post, and a newly acquired television station. In 1953, President Dwight D. Eisenhower named her head of the Federal Security Agency, which, later that year, was elevated to a Cabinet position and renamed the Department of Health, Education, with Mrs. Hobby becoming its first Secretary, a position she held until 1955 when she resigned and returned to Houston to take care of her ailing husband.

Bibliography: "Oveta Culp Hobby,The Little Colonel" from the WOODSON RESEARCH CENTER, <http://riceinfo.rice.edu/Fondren/Woodson/exhibits/wac/index.html>; Oveta Culp Hobby, from "The Official Web site of the Social Security Administration" <http://www.ssa.gov/history/hobby.


Here's a link with photos and article:  http://www.olive-drab.com/od_soldiers_clothing_combat_ww2_waac.php

Edit in:  I didn't intend to at the start, but I would like to salute my aunt Martha who served in the WAC's.  She was stationed  served in Japan during WWII.  When the uniforms changed, she was often called upon to  'model' them for the Army's WAC brochures.  She has many photos.  Beautiful...

tt



« Last Edit: July 05, 2008, 06:02:04 AM by teartracks »

CB123

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Re: Evolution of some sort~~~~~?? Help!
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2008, 05:44:52 AM »
I think I might be asking if the Women's Movement, the demand for equality, castrated the men and drove them  to the lack of respect for women, the denigration they showed, the lack of respect for men that women show, the castration in words, the men's rape in words...

Izzy,

Actually, I don't think so.  It's possible that the women's movement had hoped that the demand for equality would help the situation you describe.  Unfortunately, all the women's movement could do is correct some inequalities in the legal system, but it couldnt change people's hearts and thoughts--and it didnt.  But I don't think it created any of this.

I have a lot of thoughts on this that might or might not be connected--I'll just throw them out and see if they make sense to you:

The examples you give here are shocking, but they arent out of the norm for history--there is actually much worse.  There is still a lot of serious stuff happening to women even today--forced circumcision and honor killing for one.  Forced marriage of little girls.  There's lots of stuff out there that will make you fall to your knees. 

Something that has been striking to me as I've studied history, is how long certain groups of people have been viewed as less-than.  There have always been political enemies and cultural enemies, but those vary depending on the period of history and people group you are looking at.  But, almost across the board, in every culture, women have been second class citizens.  There seems to have been a couple of notable exceptions (the Celts are said to be one of them, but I'm not sure that equality in battle equals social equality). But even educated and (to our minds) noble people like the Romans and the Greeks had very low opinions of women's worth. 

And, unfortunately, there has always been "entertainment" available that abused and defiled women.  Used to be that average people like you and me had to go out of our way  to ever see it--not to the local Blockbusters, right down the aisle from the Disney movies--so it is much more visible than it once was.  I havent seen any research on it, but maybe that move began happening around the time of the women's movement was beginning.  So, it might appear that there's a connection.  (check out Dandy's thread on Baloney Detection--the issue you may be wrestling with is "correlation is not causation")

The first step to outright abuse is viewing someone as fundamentally other.  That view doesnt always lead to abuse, but it has to be a prerequisite to abuse.  People who are entertained by the kind of movies that you describe here, have had to first regard women as something other. Not like them.  Just changing the legal framework of a culture can't change people like that--and all the women's movement could do is change the legal framework.

A lot of this is simply the dynamics of the powerful vs. the powerless.  If the powerless are given more power, but they don't use it to change these things, then they won't change.  And, I think, in our society we value some other things far above the dignity of women.

The idea of "freedom of speech" has  changed and become all-encompassing and without any restrictions.  This has translated into all kinds of entertainment that past western cultures would have found abhorrent.  We, as a culture, are so afraid to shut down the free expression of ideas (which is the whole point of freedom of speech), that we allow abuse in under the flag of free speech.  So, something that our culture would have condemned and would have had to be sold in some back alley even a couple of decades ago, is now on shelves at the neighborhood video store.

We also shrink away from calling anything "right" or "wrong".  So, if someone creates a piece of entertainment like this, we don't have any culturally acceptable language to label it as wrong, and we don't have any culturally acceptable practice to allow it to be restricted.  This is all new stuff, and those of us who have been around for awhile, or have been raised under a different set of standards, are shocked.  Trust me, the next generations (for the most part) aren't even batting an eye.  They have grown up with these practices as normal:  there is no right or wrong, except to restrict someone's free expression. 

For what it's worth, I don't think it's possible for women to castrate men by their demeanor or demands.  I don't think that women can either inspire men to be better than they would be on their own, nor demoralize them to the point that they engage in degrading behavior.  Just as with all of us here, men and women are responsible for their own thinking patterns and the behavior that results. 

And Teartracks is right, Iz.  You're about to get deluged.  Hang in there.

Love

CB

 
When they are older and telling their own children about their grandmother, they will be able to say that she stood in the storm, and when the wind did not blow her way -- and it surely has not -- she adjusted her sails.  Elizabeth Edwards 2010

gratitude28

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Re: Evolution of some sort~~~~~?? Help!
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2008, 09:35:58 AM »
Izz,
I have been thinking about something near this and related to this, but too tired to collect thoughts right now. Will comment on this very interesting topic soon.
Love, Beth
"There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable." Douglas Adams

Hopalong

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Re: Evolution of some sort~~~~~?? Help!
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2008, 12:26:14 PM »
media, mothers, chickens, eggs...

here's an article, Izz...(wait for "Enter Salon" to appear in upper-right corner, read for free...)

I think this relates to what you're discussing. Whole thing breaks me apart.

http://www.salon.com/mwt/broadsheet/2008/06/24/quebec/index.html

love,
Hops
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cats paw

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Re: Evolution of some sort~~~~~?? Help!
« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2008, 01:04:45 PM »
Hi All,

  This thread has been, and will be, some great reading !  Did anyone ever read "The Beauty Myth" by Naomi Wolf ?

cats paw

Izzy_*now*

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Re: Evolution of some sort~~~~~?? Help!
« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2008, 02:17:10 PM »
Thank you all for your responses.
I have to go back to bed....pain in my upper back.
Am still thinking on this, and my post was about when *I*happened to notice a change, yet know much of this has gone on for centuries. I guess I'm saying/asking "Why is it so legal to have all this out in the open now?" Books. movies, real life!

bbl
Izzy
"The joy of love lasts such a short time, but the pain of love lasts one's whole life"

Certain Hope

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Re: Evolution of some sort~~~~~?? Help!
« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2008, 04:32:34 PM »
Hi, Izzy,

I hope your back is feeling better. Have you been doing too much studying?

Maybe a hot damp towel on your shoulders would ease it?

I was sheltered from alot of this stuff through the wild and wooly 60's and 70's,  in parochial school.
To this day, I am shocked regularly by some of the stuff that's even allowed on tv commercials (satellite).

To me, it's not a question of being prudish or not... it's simply that there seems to be no shame or sense of propriety within the culture.
Just about anything is acceptable, so the very foundations of society are becoming shifting sands.

Anyhow, I appreciate your thread and look forward to reading more of your thoughts. For now, just wanted to say - take care of your back!

Love and hugs,
Carolyn

Hopalong

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Re: Evolution of some sort~~~~~?? Help!
« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2008, 04:38:56 PM »
Because we come from Puritanical roots, America over-reacts to sexuality. We either repress it like crazy which produces distorted personalities, or we swing the other way out of defiance of our Puritanical culture and tell ourselves we're making it "natural" with overexposure. So it all gets dumbed down and blunted and we (the cultural "we" become desensitized.)

The second reason is we don't care about our children. Whether we overcontrol them and leave them afraid of their sexuality, or abandon them to the media and let them internalize all the distortions that so horribly devalue them, particularly girls. (Though rearing boys to be cannon fodder in Iraq and teaching them THAT's love is just as distorted, in my view.)

Personally, I'm a radical leftie, but I really miss Tipper Gore, because I totally agreed with her about lyrics. And that's innocuous to what's celebrated on screen, on TV. At all hours...day and night.

I ALWAYS visualize a 3 or 4 y/o watching, when the mindless sexual stuff comes on TV. It is devastating.

American doesn't care about children. Or anybody's else's (Bomb, bomb, bomb-bomb Iran... remember McCain singing that little ditty with a grin?).

Or we would have a very very different society.

Your question about why is it now so uncensored? I think it's cultural id showing, and that it's the beginning of the fall of Western civilization (remember Rome's orgies and vomitoriums? Starlet's w/o underpants (ahem, heist on me own petard) and eating disorders seem parallel to me...).

I'm sorry to say such sad things.

love
Hops

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teartracks

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Re: Evolution of some sort~~~~~?? Help!
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2008, 09:50:11 PM »




Hi Iz,

Just wanted you to know I'm thinking about you.  Hope the pain has abated.   Have you tried the IcyHot patches?  Just a thought.

I'm still noodling your  Evolution of some sort~~~~~~~~~~?? Help! thread.  I've wondered, now, if I'd posted those questions, what would Iz have to say? 

Tender hugs,

tt