Black president or female VP - what a new world

[Gaining Strength]

Mud - even McCain is running against the last 8 years and lots of Republicans are right with him on that.  Disappointment in the last 8 years is certainly a bipartisan reaction.

[miss piggy]

Thanks SS.

My reaction is not partisan at all.  My reaction is not against republicans.  I myself was a republican.  So it was my decision, I emphasize, MY decision, perhaps not anyone elses, that remaining republican meant associating myself with what all went on re Iraq, Katrina, DOJ, etc.  I just could not do that.

Yes, many republicans feel the way I do yet choose to stick with their party.  That is another way to go and I respect that.  I stick to my opinion that this country was run with decisions made to enrich war profiteers and oil companies. 

But it's a free country (still?) and we can agree to disagree.  If my comment about greed set anyone off, well, that is very interesting information.  Interesting that someone had such a visceral reaction to what I wrote.  That wasn't my intent.  My intent was to vent my own feelings about the last eight years and my excitement and desire for change.   I think it was pretty general.  I can only take responsibility for my own vote.  This board is indeed about voicing opinions.  I participate in other political boards and can certainly take specific political opinions there. 

But politics are about how we live together and there is an enormous amount of personal psychology that enters into it.  I see some overlap there.   

Peace.  Miss Piggy

[Hopalong]

It probably makes the most sense to draw one’s own conclusions:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_ShEXZo7UY

We all have differenct sources and different backgrounds...different experiences that influence who we respond to, who we have faith in, who we support or fear. With love and respect to my good brother Mud, it's okay to disagree.

There are thousands of right- and left-wing blogs and so forth. I am a left-tilting liberal on most (but not all) subjects. I've personally made peace with the specific charges you raised, Mud. Among others, below are some articles that show context. I'm sure there are other sources that say the opposite, and I respect your right to believe them.

Professor Ayers
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/fact-checker/2008/02/obamas_weatherman_connection.html

Reverend Wright
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lecia-shorter/reverend-wright-damned-if_b_99760.html

Tony Rezko
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/21/AR2008082103562.html?sub=AR

Mega dittoes to PEACE!

Hops

[miss piggy]

Agree that political discussions will probably devolve into an argument.  However, I know that religion has been discussed as a weapon of mass destruction by Ns, so why not politics as well?

I can be allowed my disgust without being called partisan.  I did not post any dirt on Obama or McCain. 

I will NOT stand with anyone who believes that locking people up without due process and torturing them is OK.  There is no objective that is worth that.  I do not buy the ticking time bomb argument.  My priorities are
1. human rights
2. me and my neighbors
3. taking action that is life giving, not destructive.

political parties are just an argument over where the money goes.  I don't think Obama is the messiah, but I will vote for him.  I fully expect to be disappointed.  I am not for the DNC any more than I am for the GOP.  I would vote all incumbents out if I could.  Just so you know where I am coming from.

Sorry if this is considered "mudslinging". 

[mudpuppy]

I can be allowed my disgust without being called partisan.  I did not post any dirt on Obama or McCain. 

Partisan is not a dirty word, nor does it mean posting dirt about someone. It means favoring one side over another. I just pointed out that what began as a bipartisan thread immediately became a partisan one. Nor did I accuse anyone of mudslinging.

even McCain is running against the last 8 years and lots of Republicans are right with him on that

Well, he's running on making Bush's tax cuts permanent and taking credit for pushing the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. I suppose there is some way one could construe that as running against the last 8 years but I'm not sure how.
He is doing what all politicians do which is to distance himself from an unpopular president, just as many congressional Democrats did when Truman was very unpopoular and distrusted at the end of his presidency. Fifty years later of course Truman is viewed in a very bipartisan way as a great president and the congressmen are forgotten.

Among others, below are some articles that show context.

God bless ya, Hops. You have yet to ever provide me with a link that wasn't a puff piece for whatever cause you believe in. Those three links are whitewashes which could have been written by Obama himself. Google the Annenberg challenge and Obama. Look in places you wouldn't otherwise look. The way you learn about someone is sifting through what their supporters say but also and more importantly what their credible critics say about them. Reading only echo chambers of our own views provides the same perspective as you'd get in Soviet Russia or Mussolini's Italy.

I'll bow out of this thread now as it is a prime example, in my opinion, of why this board is slowly dying.

mud

[lupine]

Hey Mud!

You're exactly right.  Let's head right back into religion and get a good discussion going again.  Just kidding.

Actually, it's enlightening to know what your agenda is.

We've never had a guy who has only served three years in the senate (two of which he's spent campaigning) and otherwise has done pretty much nothing;

Nothing!  Are you sure?

who spent twenty years in a church listening to his pastor preach racist hatred, then deny he heard any of it; whose political mentor is an unrepentant 60's bomb designing terrorist who he spent years working closely with but whom he now acts like he barely knows; and whose political fixer and fund raiser just got sent to the Federal hoosegow for wire and mail fraud, but of course he hardly knew him either even though he helped him buy his house.

Whew!  Is it all as simplistic as you say!!!   Wow....

I guess the short story is that we know who you are going to vote for....

I don't think we need to stop talking because you find it offensive.  Of course, you could go volunteer for the "other guy".... if you find the thread just too out of order....

Anyway, thanks for your opinion.  And I'd like to keep talking

[mudpuppy]

Allow me to bow back in.

I guess the short story is that we know who you are going to vote for....

No you don't. I wrote a couple of posts critical of Obama and one straightening out what SS said about McCain and then indirectly criticised McCain. It is safe to conclude on what I have written who I will not, but not who I will, vote for.

Actually, it's enlightening to know what your agenda is.

My agenda is exactly what I stated it to be. Secondarily to point out the fact that this bipartisan thread devolved after one post into a partisan one, but primarily to try to voluntarily persude folks that this site is valuable and unique, or at least it used to be, and that these topics, are detrimental to that value. I have merely voiced my opinion that people consider this view; not told anyone to shut up.

If people disagree they are free to continue on in the vein the board has been in for the last year or so and watch the membership continue to dwindle as new memberships are closed and see it die completely eventually.

Now bowing out of this thread permanently (I hope)

mud

[miss piggy]

I'm pretty excited too.
We're looking at real change here if Obama is elected.
We've never had a guy who has only served three years in the senate (two of which he's spent campaigning) and otherwise has done pretty much nothing; who spent twenty years in a church listening to his pastor preach racist hatred, then deny he heard any of it; whose political mentor is an unrepentant 60's bomb designing terrorist who he spent years working closely with but whom he now acts like he barely knows; and whose political fixer and fund raiser just got sent to the Federal hoosegow for wire and mail fraud, but of course he hardly knew him either even though he helped him buy his house. Hope and change indeed. He does give a pretty speech though.

Suggest we leave politics off this board and restrain the desire to label those with whom we disagree with pathological labels.

mud

Well, this WAS quite the stinkbomb...as others have said, you can choose to participate or not, but please hold the accusations and assignments of intent.  I call the actions of our government pathological and i stand by that statement.  If you choose to delve into character assassination, that is your choice.  But it's your choice.  Own it.

[Overcomer]

One thing I know for sure is that I have heard a lot of dirt on Obama..................and I have heard things like McCain is too old and why would he choose an unknown woman from Alaska and more of the same blah blah blah..........

To be honest with you, this is the first election I do not know who to vote for.  It will be the first time I go into the booth and not automatically vote for a Republican.  Oh well, all I want is for the economy to bounce back and for my new beautiful granddaughter to be safe!!

[mudpuppy]

If you choose to delve into character assassination, that is your choice.

That is a lie, please retract it.
And once you have, go take a walk til your hat floats.

mud

[Ami]

Just an observation, Mud,but you sure fight back when you percieve YOU are insulted. Then ,Mr Impartiality seems to be riding in the back seat.
 How would you like s/one to come in ,now, and tell you not to  fight? 
  Do you get the point that was made on the other thread? This is it.   

[mudpuppy]

Ami,

I make a distinction between an insult, which is an opinion, and a falsehood.
When someone falsely accuses me of something I tend to be not quite so impartial.
I'm funny that way.

mud

[miss piggy]

If you choose to delve into character assassination, that is your choice.

That is a lie, please retract it.
And once you have, go take a walk til your hat floats.

mud

Having fun?  I could say that to anyone...it stands as a statement, not a lie.

Someone needs to check their projections.  Just as an interesting exercise, one could go back and review what they have written and see what they would think if someone had directed it at them. 

I guess criticism of our country's government really hit a nerve for you.  I guess it doesn't bother you that the current administration has shredded the constitution, ignored treaties, invaded a country or two, and told Congress to stuff it.  Now that's change!  Sorry you don't like the fact that I would like the wars and robbery of our treasury to stop.  Wonder why you are so defensive. 

But thanks for telling me and anyone who is riding high after the Dem convention to stifle.  Very kind.  And the suggested walk.  Wow, just wow.   
 

[James]

Bean........I agree with you this is probably about our pasts and our posture NOW may very well be, in fact, the strategy adapted earlier in childhood.......  I believe it's more of a reflection of how we developed coping mechanisms to survive our fears as children.  Some people seem to protect the parents at all costs and some appear to challenge the authoritarian structure of their childhoods embedded in these poltics. This usually manifests in a "struggle" in the present........James

[mudpuppy]

I could say that to anyone...it stands as a statement, not a lie.

You accused me of engaging in character assassination which I have not done, ipso facto it is a lie.

I have not tried to stifle anyone. I have questioned the wisdom of bringing up politics on this board and recommended voluntary restraint because the discussion invariably devolves into a pointless fight and goes from general statements of opinion to ad hominem attacks such as your false accusation about me referred to above.

I do thank you though, for making my point about why this thread was such a bad idea so much more effectively than I could ever have.

Bean........I agree with you this is probably about our pasts and our posture NOW may very well be, in fact, the strategy adapted earlier in childhood.......  I believe it's more of a reflection of how we developed coping mechanisms to survive our fears as children.  Some people seem to protect the parents at all costs and some appear to challenge the authoritarian structure of their childhoods embedded in these poltics.

Not in my case, James. My parents weren't Ns and I had a happy childhood.
My position is based on watching these kind of threads blow up in the past, precisely as this one has.
The only way they don't blow up is if one side practices voicelessness on itself and doesn't respond to provocative comments by the other. Most of us don't need anymore practice being pressured into keeping our mouths shut in the face of provocation.
That is why I advise voluntary restraint by both sides. It breeds goodwill rather than bad.

mud