forgiveness

[Anonymous]

Has anyone been able to forgive their N?  I  know that forgiving doesn't mean that I have to have them in my life or tolerate any more abuse.  I want to forgive them for me, not them.  But how can anyone forgive when the abuse is on-going?  I'd be forgiving minute by minute!  I guess what I really want to know is how can I have peace of heart?    Dinny

[Dawning]

Dinny,

I think it takes a certain degree of both objectivity and insight to forgive.  For me, it is hard to do and depends on my own personal environment as well.  You probably know that having "peace of heart" is something that must come from within.  The N's will never give that to us.  Its still hard for me to believe that.  So one thing that I have used as a little mantra...*forgiving too soon is just as bad as not forgiving at all.*  It works on the broad spectrum.  Having said that, I will not tolerate abusive behaviour, verbal assaults, and/or any attempts to control my behaviour for someone else's personal gain (ie, being used.)  It seems easy to confuse forgiveness with extreme tolerance for evil, uncaring people.  Forgiveness does not mean that I have to take crap from people.  Maybe they don't know what they are doing, maybe they do.  The best thing I can do at this point is forgive myself for believing their lies.  And detach...move on.

Some *empowerment* ideas state that we must forgive and forgive *now* but I think forgiveness is delicate and can only be done on one's personal timetable.  When you are ready to forgive, you'll forgive.  I am starting with learning to love myself.  Forgiveness is really a statement of love.

[BlueTopaz]

...*forgiving too soon is just as bad as not forgiving at all.*

Quadruple- yes, yes, yes, yes!   This is such an important point.  I did this with my X-N partner waaay too many times, and the feelings of resentment always welled up again...   I wasn't ready...

I can't add anything more to the very, very wise message of Dawning.

BT

[Anonymous]

Dear Dawning,

Thanks for your insight.  I think forgiveness is very personal and I've been beating myself up by trying to force it.  I keep hoping that if I forgive, my pain will go away.  I'm just trying to heal my broken heart.  This N thing is pretty new to me. Especially regarding my mother.  I've always know that my F is NOT NORMAL, but my mother's behavior is still very fresh.  My role with her was to rescue her from him.  But she always left me hanging out to dry.  Never defending or protecting me from him.  I feel like she always setting me up.  She'd complain to me about him, I'd try to fix it,  he'd go balistic,and she was nowhere in sight. Now she is furious with me because I won't take his abuse any longer.  In her eyes, I have deserted her and don't love her anymore.  Her efforts to make me feel guilty aren't working anymore.  I still have my moments of feeling responsible for her, but I'm working on putting myself first.  After 50 years of conditioning, it's difficult, but I can finally see the light at the end of the tunnel.  I'm in remission from Cancer. Third year, Yippee.  While I was going through my treatment of weekly chemo and daily radiation, I felt I had to protect my mother from my nightmare.  She made it perfectly clear that my cancer was way too hard for to handle.  In other words, it became all about her.  The good news is that facing my second  biggest fear made it possible to face my first biggest fear.  My father.  He didn't even wait one year before he started in on me again, but I just couldn't take it anymore.  It was like I hit a wall.  I was so tired physically and emotionally that I had no more to give.  What a relief! But at such a high price.  I ended up losing my entire family.  That was 2 years ago.  My daughter is getting married on Oct. 2 and I guess the emotions and stress of this wedding are getting to me.  I do have a wonderful husband and a handful of really good friends whom I cherish.  As Wayne Dyer says "Friends are God's apology for family".  Thanks for letting me ramble on.  It feel good not to have to defend myself.

[Anonymous]

Dear Seeker,

I love the volcano analogy.  It's so true.  My mom has been described to to me as having the Abused Wife Syndrome.  She was great until my father retired and she had to deal with him full time.  Before then, she had a sort of double life.  My father and then everything and everyone else.  She managed things very well until he became full time for her.  Then everything else ended for her.  It's a very sad story and why I always tried to help her when I could.  But she lost herself and I can't let that happen to me.  It came down to either her or me.   I had to choose me.  I feel bad about this, but there comes a time in everyone's life when you have to save your own soul.  I wish my mother was strong enough to do that.   Thanks so much for caring to write back.                Dinny

[bunny]

Forgiving is a process that happens because of internal changes; i.e., one day you realize you've forgiven the person. It happens over a period of time, with changes coming from within. It's not something you can swallow like medicine because it's good for you.

If you are being abused and not yet protecting yourself, forgiveness is not an option. Forgiveness has a strong component of philosophically accepting the abuser's limitations and impairments. And you plan strategies accordingly. The strategy may be avoiding the person; or creating strong boundaries; deciding how much access to grant the person; how much tolerance you'll show; how you'll respond when they do X; etc. This still isn't forgiveness. It's being compassionate and self-protective.

Bottom line, forgiveness isn't that critical except self forgiveness! It is critical to strategize and protect oneself from an abusive, sick person who can't get better.

bunny

[Jenocidal]

I cannot fathom forgiving my sociopathic mother.  In her presence, my anger consumes me.  Every little idiopathy she displays forces me to relive the Hell I endured.

[Discounted Girl]

I think Seeker posted this on another thread -- it is certainly worth the read:

http://www.forgiving.org/Working/myths.asp

[Lizbeth]

I haven't been able to forgive my N's, though I do understand them now (or what they are at least), but I did forgive my schizophrenic abusive mother after she died and I went through a few months of therapy.  

Has anyone been able to forgive their N?  I  know that forgiving doesn't mean that I have to have them in my life or tolerate any more abuse.  I want to forgive them for me, not them.  But how can anyone forgive when the abuse is on-going?  I'd be forgiving minute by minute!  I guess what I really want to know is how can I have peace of heart?    Dinny

[StaceyLynn]

Here's what I've learned that has taken much work (still in progress) to achieve.  I am jewish, and through learning much more about my religion recently and what the foundation of it is and what our "Torah" teaches...I have been enlighted.   I've found that trying to forgive is truely one of the biggest blessing you can make.  Our religion states that children cannot judge our parents and furthermore are ulimately sup[posed to respect them.  Well, I doubt I'll ever get to fulfill this as it is meant.  However, I can forgive her (N Mom) and pray for her that before she is no longer with us, she'll be enlightened to realize who she really is and what she has done to her family.  It takes someone to feel the need to be that introspective to be aware of the things we all need to work on.  I realize that this is out of my control.  She holds the key to taking a good hard look at herself, and realize the she in fact is NOT perfect.  I know what she's all about, and in order to have some sort of peace, I chose to accept that I can't change her.  I can only control ME, which means I'm in control of how she affects me.  It's working.  Good luck to you.

[el123]

Great topic!!  Here are my thoughts on this subject:  Although you may never agree with or like what was done to you/is still being done you *can* get to the point where it does not affect you negatively.  Ok, here's the controversial part but I truly feel this:  You can even get to the point where you see the blessing in the situation.  Ok, before bashing me, let me explain.  I say this because I have gotten to that point many times.  Despite being severely physically abused by my N mother as a child and still abused by her as an adult, I *have* been able to get to a place where she does not hurt me.  This is not the same as agreeing with or condoning her behavior.  It just means that she is unable to hurt me even if she is blatanly being violent with me.  Then the next step is for me to see that I have forged my own parenting rules because of her abuse.  This I never would have done if I was not abused.  This is the 'blessing' for me.  Granted, I'm not always able to do this, but when I do, I feel like it is true mental freedom for me and I feel great!  I've listened to some Byron Katie CD's and books and followed her 'formula' for doing this.  I'd write more but my children just woke up and I need to get my oldest ready for school!
-El

[el123]

Ok, all the kids are taken care of and I've got a minute.  I wanted to add to my post above b/c I didn't have time to finish what I was trying to say.  I don't want to be misunderstood in that I was in any way invalidating anyones experiences or very real pain they experience with their N's.  I KNOW how bad it can be.  I think that the abuse that our N's dish out is *entirely* and * *completely* wrong, sick and some may debate even evil.  I also feel however that the decision as to how it affects us lay entirely in our hands.   That doesn't mean that the beatings, tongue lashings, manipulations, etc. don't hurt.  They do.  They hurt tremendously when you react and feel a certain way about them.  What I am saying is that you can react and feel differently in a way that is not hurtful *to you*.  It may drive you N nuts (and most likely will!!) but you can get to the point where it doesn't affect you negatively anymore.  It IS doable.  In order for me to do this, I needed to take the positive out of each situation as it came up.  Now the positive may be just a tiny speck among a ton of sh#$% but if I look hard enough, I find it.  Then I put my focus on that.  On the positive.  I guess that would be considered 'forgiving' but the focus is on my own well being and not 'pardoning' wrongdoing.  
-El

[Discounted Girl]

All most of us ever wanted was for the abuse to stop -- just stop treating us this way -- just stop. If you don't love us, okay, but stop the abuse. Unfortunately, most of the time it never stops; in fact it becomes worse, manifesting into a lifetime of dysfunction and unfullfillment. The link I referenced above is sure on the money as far as I am concerned. There is a lot of myth surrounding the concept of forgiveness.

Stopping the abuse one way or another is a matter of survival. Now, if you can find a way to have a relationship with your Nparent and also stop the abuse, hey, go for it -- you are a miracle worker.  If you are interested in a superficial, shallow and perfunctory relationship with your flesh and blood mother, you're a better ACON than I am gunga din. To me, that is more wasted time. We shall pass this way but once, and as far as I am concerned, I wasted half of it on a lost cause.

I think it is arrogant to think any of us has the power to "forgive" someone their sins. If you want to call trying to put a wasted life behind us and go on with what is left and make the most of it - if you want to call that forgiveness, then that is the direction I think I need to head. I know forgiveness brings peace to the soul (not absolution to the abuser) but I don't know what that feels like, except I don't wish her harm or anything negative. I only wish to never be abused by her again and I wish to protect and take care of myself. I have no desire to ever see her again, alive or dead. If I burned my hand on a hot pan, I would not keep picking that pan back up -- I would stop the heat. I don't care for superficial relationships with family members. I think it smacks of low degree and somehow feels dirty, not to mention what a waste of even more time. There is a whole world of wonderful people out there and a minimal amount of time to enjoy life with them. I feel very envious when I see adults with their familes all enjoying and loving one another. That is how it should be. You should be able to relax and be yourself around your mother -- you should be able to tell her anything and feel the comfort from a mother's nurturing love no matter what your age. If she does not want to give it to you, what is the relationship for?

I am not trying to be a hard ass, but I am not a saint either and it's way too late to turn hypocrite. I am real and I am passionate -- when I hurt, I bleed, I cry, I mourn, I grieve -- I'm not going to be fake and wave a forgiving hand over someone's head. Tsk, tsk. Like Red in Shawshank Redemption said -- we need to "get busy living or get busy dying."

[el123]

Discounted Girl,  Correct me if I'm wrong but I felt your hostility towards my last 2 posts.  I think that you were referring to me when you wrote:

Stopping the abuse one way or another is a matter of survival. Now, if you can find a way to have a relationship with your Nparent and also stop the abuse, hey, go for it -- you are a miracle worker. I

I didn't mention this in my post but I have minimized contact with my N mother, (also my N MIL and N brother in law) almost to the point of no contact.  I see her rarely and briefly for the sake of my kids since they absolutely love her (and she's good to them) and to see my dad.  My meetings are brief and I almost never answer the phone when she calls.  When I do have very limited contact with her, yes, I am able to mostly not let it bother me.  I was NEVER able to do this in the past. I'm not 100% yet but I am saying that if I am able to do it then it is definately possible.  It's also possible to not be consumed by the past.  Not to deny what happened but to not let it bother you anymore so that it controls you.  Not in a shallow, superficial way but to TRULY let go of it.  I am not in any way condoning having a relationship with anyone who is abusive.  I don't have shallow, superficial relationships and then deny what I'm feeling.  That is not in any way what I do.  I feel totally misunderstood and realize that it's because I'm probably not making myself clear.  If anyone knows what I'm saying and can clarify better than me I'd really appreciate it.  Otherwise, I'll just realize that you all just disagree with me on this.  I did not mean to offend anyone here and sorry if I did.
-El

[Discounted Girl]

Nope, Eli, I was not being hostile to you -- I have been on this board for a year now and have not been hostile to anyone. I appreciate reading your views and experiences and do not feel offended by anything I read on this forum. I value everyone's input and don't try to sway anyone -- I don't criticize fellow-board members -- I am only accountable for myself and my own words.

I just felt prompted to make the remarks in my post after reading the entire thread, which included your postings. Everyone is different, special and unique and sees the world through only their own eyes. I doubt I would ever make it in the state dept, but I do have cordial (but what I will call meaningless) relationships, more like acquaintances whom you see now and then as neighbors or come together at some event. (I would never have made it back in the 1800's when fine ladies all called on each other (to gossip haha) every Saturday morning.) But I cannot imagine having such a relationship with my mother. I would not want one. I only wanted her natural love, period. She does not know me, never wanted to. She chose only to mistreat me to feed some sick and twisted need. I have my own children and cannot fathom anything but a deep, true and real relationship with them.  Anything less would be a sham.

That's just me -- and I would never imply that anyone else should feel that way also.