Help? Severing ties? N-dad troubles in the present day.

[ListNewbie]

Hey, all.

First, thank you for this forum, and all your voices. I've been sitting here, reading, feeling a little better knowing that there are others out there dealing with this sort of issue.

I have a sort of different story than many. I have an N-dad whose preoccupation is in his own Unique, Interesting, Brilliant Spirituality. He's creating a new "religious system" of "technologies" to liberate the masses. Further, he's a pot smoking hippie dropout - although he has no problem working a corporate job when someone hires him. Being a "suit" or "conformist" are to him the moral equivalents of being a Nazi at a concentration camp. I have a hard time explaining to people that this isn't just a turn of phrase: especially when he then works in such a corporation and wears such a suit.

It's not even that I disagree with all of his premises, for social reform, or whatever. However, with Dad, I slowly came to realize that this was only theoretical, and only a response to how he himself felt "screwed over" by the system. His morality does not extend to people who are in his way. He is entitled by his moral superiority to harrass the working class waitress while ordering lunch... Sending his meal back for moral hippie infractions.

Unlike many of you, I was not always the "bad" kid. I was seen by Dad as being the next Messiah. (He writes the new Bible, I convert the masses.)

I was such a good mirror for him, that we didn't have many problems until I was about ten. He married other personality disordered people, and I was the go-between, the fixer, the "healer", the one who could make it all better. Except when I was the evil, horrid, misbehaving child, and the all night/middle of the night "therapy" sessions would start. They'd pull me out of bed and explain or yell at me about how I'd fallen short. It was like a psychological lynching. Then tomorrow, I could do no wrong. I was back to being the Messiah, the lynchpin upon which the family rested.

Horrors on top, I also had a step father (my mom really picked 'em, when she was younger), who is a classic Antisocial Personality. There was  vicious, regimented military sexual abuse on that side.

I've been in tons of therapy for my step-dad/step-mom/dad issues. I'm doing pretty well, all things considered: Married to a lovely man, have a funny, strong, gorgeous child, no contact with crazy steps, and my mom has come a long way - participated in family therapy with myself and my (adult) sister last year. With my mom and sister and husband and son, I'm a blessed individual: I feel supported and loved.

Dad, I'd sort of humoured. "Yep, you're the best!" "That's fascinating!" "I'm glad your open marriage is working so well for you!" "Oh, really, that's brilliant!" - and even some actual praise for stuff he did do well.  I'd ignore his blatent and almost amusing self-love. Like when he "came out" sexually to me as "polyamorous" - an issue I've had in my face since I was a kid - when I phoned to tell him that my H and I were pregnant.

Recently, he came to visit with the accompanying drama that follows him wherever he goes. After an eight hour day, I just LOST it with him. I'd not done that in years. With all the healing with my mom, I'd extended my ring of safety to him, and that just isn't true. It's like I've healed enough to expect to be treated with kindness and empathy, and I forgot that didn't apply in his case.

The next day, I sat him down. No more games. I said I thought he was a Narcissist. (He's actually been diagnosed, but has rejected the diagnosis. Of course...) I said that we needed firm boundries on our contact. I laid out those boundries. I said that sometimes I became a toddler with him, emotionally two and a half, because there is part of me that keeps wanting him to grow up and be the adult.

The thing is, I know this isn't going to work. I'm only now, for the first time, searching out the literature on people involved with narcissists, and I've used the tricks for years. The tricks aren't working anymore suddenly, because suddenly, I'm blooming sick of being the adult. I'm the adult for my son.

Why SHOULD I be the adult for my dad?

Then, he sent me a letter. It was a horrific classic attack. He inferred my mother was sexually? abusive. He brought out new angles on the sexual abuse of my step-father, some of which would have helped when I tried to press charges many years ago. (In Canada, the Crown Prosecutor can choose not to go to trial even if the police say there's a case, if the crown feels there's no chance of winning.)

It made me ill. And Angry.

Now, (four months later), I'm still frozen in my response. I can't send him an honest angry response - it's what he wants. I WANT to cut him out of my life. I don't want him anywhere near my son.

However, my aunt (his sister), and my grandfather (his dad), have no real understanding of the extent of his insanity. They're both supportive of me, but they'd feel sad for us if I severed contact. My aunt suggests more limits on contact, to which I feel, WHY? Why? In a little narcissistic fit myself, I wonder: What the heck do I get out of this? Not love. Not support. Not someone to be empathetic TO: I have to insulate myself from his constant, neverending hurts too, because he cannot heal and become strong. To be brutally mercenary, there's not even gifts that I can enjoy... The man's a financial suckhole, and anytime he gives me a gift, I see him starving on the streets in his old age.

There's only some cultural morality in me that says: "He's your dad." We all hear the stories of regret when family cuts off other family. Sometimes, I feel like telling that cultural morality that we're a special case. Sometimes, I feel like my own morality is perhaps a bit shaky, if I know that he's broken and can't love him anyway. Oh, damn. I do love him anyway: but I mean, if I can't make allowances for his broken-ness. If my dad were quadrapeligic, I'd mourn not getting to play ball with him, but I wouldn't cut him off until he learned to walk, would I?

So - that whole long story - if you've gotten through it all - is to ask this: has anyone cut their Nparents off completely? Is it okay to? Did it have really horrible consequences in your life and the lives of your families?

I know I have to make this decision myself.  I'm in need of advice, though: I really am on the horns of a dilemma.

Thanks for reading,
ListNewbie

[Looking in]

So - that whole long story - if you've gotten through it all - is to ask this: has anyone cut their Nparents off completely? Is it okay to? Did it have really horrible consequences in your life and the lives of your families?

I know I have to make this decision myself.  I'm in need of advice, though: I really am on the horns of a dilemma.

Definitely sounds as if you are not ready to severe contact with your dad.

[Anonymous]

Welcome, ListNewbie.

That was quite a story.  

After an eight hour day, I just LOST it with him. I'd not done that in years. With all the healing with my mom, I'd extended my ring of safety to him, and that just isn't true. It's like I've healed enough to expect to be treated with kindness and empathy, and I forgot that didn't apply in his case.

Probably it's too much to spend 8 hours with him. If you see him again, you might decide the maximum amount of time you can manage, and not go beyond that.

The next day, I sat him down. No more games. I said I thought he was a Narcissist. (He's actually been diagnosed, but has rejected the diagnosis. Of course...) I said that we needed firm boundries on our contact. I laid out those boundries. I said that sometimes I became a toddler with him, emotionally two and a half, because there is part of me that keeps wanting him to grow up and be the adult.

I wouldn't explain to him about my own regression. He doesn't care and it will trigger his own regression. Just set up the boundaries without explanation. Of course he won't like it, but he doesn't have to. All he has to do is not trample over the limits (which you'll have to enforce).

Now, (four months later), I'm still frozen in my response. I can't send him an honest angry response - it's what he wants. I WANT to cut him out of my life. I don't want him anywhere near my son.

However, my aunt (his sister), and my grandfather (his dad), have no real understanding of the extent of his insanity. They're both supportive of me, but they'd feel sad for us if I severed contact. My aunt suggests more limits on contact, to which I feel, WHY? Why?

I'm assuming that other relatives don't want the burden of this loser and are afraid you'll be out of the picture when he needs more care. They have rationalized (and may indeed believe) that it's "wrong" to cut off this severely destructive person. If you do cut him off, and you are certainly entitled to, they will have to deal with their own feelings. It's not your job to make them feel better. They don't have to give it their blessing. They can think it's sad if they feel like it. Do what you have to do and let them accept it on their own time.

I would not honestly respond to this man as he is way too distorted in his thinking. It wouldn't do any good. I would probably plan a strategy of how to proceed. It may be prudent to do nothing for a long time.

bunny

[Moonflower]

....

[ListNewbie]

Thank you so much, all.

My most true self says to me: "Get the hell away from this man, for your kid, if not for yourself."
The worried side says to me: "Yup, and then you'll be just as narcissistic."
The worried side is supported by well meaning friends and family, who see breaking ties with family members as self-wounding and somewhat immature.

Moonflower and bunny, I've read other posts by you on the board; it is astounding to me that you understand the ferociousness of the Nar - I don't really have to explain. It is wonderful to have people who really get it help me off the hook I've got myself on of guilt and responsibility. Thanks, Moonflower, for letting me know it's worked well for you and your siblings to push away from your Nmom: it gives me hope and some resolve. I think that breaking away is where I'm going. Is it like ripping off a bandaid? Worse if you do it slowly? Worse in anticipation?

I totally agree, bunny, that 8 hours is too damn long. If I do talk to him again, it has to be for short periods of time. You're right as well about the relatives. That's harder for me. My aunt is a psychologist, and though she sees that Dad's 'eccentric' and 'farther along on the scale of narcissism', she doesn't see him as personality disordered. There's so much she doesn't KNOW though. I know I have to make these decisions without green lights from her or anyone else, but there's this part of me that wishes to lay out for her every selfish & hurtful thing Dad ever did. (Not enough time to do such a thing...)

Of course, her being a psychologist has always played heavily in Dad's universe. He puts on a good face for her, and if she doesn't see his insanity, then that's a mallet he can use to bludgeon people in an argument.

*oh. the light just went on.

Holy cow. That's pretty obvious, isn't it?

Anyway, thanks both. I'm going to have to chew this one over.

Oh, and thanks, too, to LookingIn. I'm guessing that the level of my conflict about this issue is why you're saying I'm not ready to sever ties. You're right. I'm glad this board is here; already it is helping me to resolve some of that conflict... Then, whatever I decide, it will be clean, for me.

ListNewbie.

[Looking in]

I'm guessing that the level of my conflict about this issue is why you're saying I'm not ready to sever ties.

That's what I meant . A person will know when he/she is ready. The determination should be there.  The old programming by the N will come up to harrass the ex-victim most likely with all kinds of feelings though, but it won't deter him/her from the purpose to hold to the boundaries and the actual enforcement of the boundaries.

[bunny]

My most true self says to me: "Get the hell away from this man, for your kid, if not for yourself."
The worried side says to me: "Yup, and then you'll be just as narcissistic."
The worried side is supported by well meaning friends and family, who see breaking ties with family members as self-wounding and somewhat immature.

It isn't narcissistic to decide that a severely disturbed and destructive person no longer gets access. It's reasonable. You could never be as narcissistic as him, anyway. He sounds mentally ill. If friends and family see it as self-wounding and immature, hopefully you can tolerate their disapproval.

Re: your aunt. Being a psychologist doesn't make her more knowledgeable about her own brother. She's biased there. And psychologists can be just as nutty and f*ed up as anyone else (often more so). Give her only the credence she deserves and no more. It's a waste of time to convince her of anything. She should have been paying attention a long time ago, and she chose not to. It's okay to keep wishing she'd be convinced but realistically it seems unlikely.

bunny

[nassim]

Hi Listnewbie,

you said:

Then, whatever I decide, it will be clean, for me.

ListNewbie.

I've cut off contact. But it will never be clean. You don't have to announce it or anything. You can just decide little by little to decrease contact and maybe do nothing for a long time. Say you've been busy even if you're not. You can be pretty low key about it unless they're in your face alot. Get some technology (for phone, etc.) to help you screen calls and such. I decided one day I'm not Pavlov's doggie and don't have to answer the darn thing if I don't feel like it  

Good luck. One thing to keep in mind is that you have to not be afraid to look like the bad guy. You know you're not the bad guy anyway. Let others draw their own conclusions since you don't have any control over what they think anyway.

Nassim

[Moonflower]

...

[Anonymous]

Hi ListNewbie:

My n-father never expressed a moment of remorse in his entire life.  He wore a suit cutting the grass and even, when he went hunting.  He was very intelligent and behaved in a number of odd ways,  as well as quite violently.  I cut all ties with him for about 11 years before he died.  He was pathalogical and stalked me until the police finally had a little chat with him (back when police were allowed to just stop by and have a chat with a person).
After that, I received sporatic somewhat      , sometimes frightening phone calls, mainly in the middle of the night, and always thought it was just him trying to upset/provoke me.  I kept record but otherwise, did not react.  I never saw him again.

The phone calls continued after my father passed away.
I quit all contact with my n-sis (who sometimes denies there was any abuse in our childhood household--?????) about 3 years ago.  The phone calls have so far stopped, once I moved to a different town, and sent the telephone security people to investigate, after the 1st call at the new house.  They had to agree that this could not just be a coincidence and I don't know what was discovered about who was calling.  I highly suspect it was my n-sis who did this all along but I don't know.

The effect of severing myself from those harmful relationships has been a relief, in many ways.  I don't miss the       stuff but I am mourning the loss, especially of the relationship I thought I had with my n-sis.  I still love her very much and I am having a hard time accepting that I probably won't see any great change in her behaviour.   She sends messages to me through other family members, and is doing a good job of making me look like the bad guy.  I can't be bothered arguing about it all.  I usually let those comments pass by without absorbing them.  I know what is true and what is not and my n-sis does not speak much truth often.

You mention a physicall illness vs. the mental illness your father presents with, and mention that you love him and wouldn't cut him off if he were a quad.   True but if he had a contagious desease that would harm you and your family, would you then?  (Who knows what you or I or anyone else would do?   There is much to consider but if it was a     ly bug, we
would probably all run like hell, right?)

My advice is that if you decide to cut all contact, prepare for the worst and have your plan ready.  The chances are the worst won't happen but if it does, at least you'll be prepared.  What others think isn't important.  It's what is best for you and your family (children) that is priority.   I made a sudden decision to end contact with my n-sis in order save my sanity.  You have the advantage of planning ahead and doing things gradually, if you choose to.  Who knows what thing is best?
It's gradual or cold-turkey n-quitting, I guess.  

I tried setting boundaries and limiting the relationship for a very short time.   That sent my n-sis into a ruthless rage and a destructive rampage.

Hope things work out for the best for you and your family.

s

[ListNewbie]

Thanks for sharing your story, s. This was especially helpful to me:

I don't miss the stuff but I am mourning the loss, especially of the relationship I thought I had with my n-sis. I still love her very much and I am having a hard time accepting that I probably won't see any great change in her behaviour.

I think one of the problems I'm having is that I *do* love my n-dad. There's nothing in our present day contact that I'd miss, but there's the history of how I used to see him. Although I don't hope anymore that he'll change, I still hold some slim tendril of hope that he's not utterly devoid of feeling for myself and my brother. He, unlike many of the N-parents the other folks on the board had experience with, invested his nar behaviours in looking psychologically perfect and spiritually saintly: which means that there were times when he'd say the right things or do the right things. You just couldn't relax into it though: if you went "off script", he couldn't respond empathetically. It's like he learned the hallmark card version of love, and couldn't go beyond that.

Anyway, hearing your process, your struggle, and your bravery helps.

[ListNewbie]

Sorry, I just figured out that every time I answer someone, it pops this up to the top of the board again.
 
I really am a ListNewbie... Sorry!

[flower]

It's like he learned the hallmark card version of love, and couldn't go beyond that.

Like that description, ListNewbie.   It sounds so familiar.

That's okay you can pop your thread up to the top as much as you want. We are all in this together.  

[Anonymous]

Hi ListNewbie:

Thankyou for your kind words.  I noticed a typo in my post when I wrote about what if your dad had a deadly disease and then:

"Who knows what you or I or anyone else would do? There is much to consider but if it was a ly bug,....."

which should be:  "deadly bug".

The wonders of technology!  I have no idea how I managed to delete part of that word.  Sorry for the confusion.  

Regarding missing your n-dad you wrote:  "...but there's the history of how I used to see him...."

For me, it's that history plus the history of good memories, because there are a few of those too, times when everything seemed ok.

Also you wrote:  "I still hold some slim tendril of hope that he's not utterly devoid of feeling for myself and my brother...."

Thankyou for that.  I have to admit I have the same faint hope.    The info on n's states that n's are unable to love.   If that is true, it makes me feel better knowing I'm not the only one with such a false hope.  I need to work on correcting it, that's for sure, but how do I know what n's do or do not feel?  I guess it doesn't matter (thinking out loud now) does it?

You also wrote:  "...there were times when he'd say the right things or do the right things. You just couldn't relax into it though:..."

Yes.  Those are the memories I'm talking about too, the "right" ones, and yes, I could send her off the deep end, into a real fit, in an instant, by going "off script", as you put it.   As long as I agreed with her stuff and kept me to myself, everything seemed like it was ok, except for those "off script" occasions.

In my case, there weren't as many of those because I tried so hard to just be agreeable and conform to her requirements.  I did that because I know she has been through so much, growing up where we did, and because I love her.  Most of those things aren't as important to me as our relationship and feelings, that's the way I saw it.

In reflecting on that, I see how I allowed her to have so much control and how intolerable it was for her, once I stood up to her, because I was sweating the big stuff.  That caused her outrage--my rebellion.  I blame myself for allowing her such power in the first place, but I am only human.  I only wanted to have a loving relationship with my sister.  I only wanted some kind of closeness with her and I knew that wouldn't happen if I wasted energy arguing over every detail of "the script".  

Your description helps me.  Thanks NL.

s

[Anonymous]

For crying OUT loud!  I mean LN.

Sorry about that.

s