Are N's uncomfortable with any sort of positive relationship?

[SilverLining]

Over the past couple of months I almost got lulled into thinking things had improved a little with my father.  He was less obnoxious than usual when I visited over Christmas, even asking a few stilted questions about my life and situation.  It was still superficial but it seemed he at least made some effort.  Then I talked to him on the phone in February and it seemed we had an almost normal reciprocal conversation for a few minutes.  It was the first conversation in years not littered with the usual counterpointing and gaslighting of his typical conversation. 

So then a couple of weeks later I get another phone call with a blast of self absorbed nonsense involving his "concerns" about my life and his explanations of what my options are.  I hadn't requested any advice or indicated any problems.  I get off the phone feeling like I had been mugged. 

I have to wonder if N's almost have a phobia against any sort of positive relationship, or at least what anybody else would consider positive.  I get the feeling  my father just isn't comfortable with any reciprocal relationship on an adult level, and so he is compulsively destroys any relationship which appears to be improving.   

It pretty much destroyed whatever hope I might have had of any long term improvement, and that's probably a better place for me to be.   

[Ami]

I have exactly the same thing with my M. I have for years. She seems to be "normal" i.e. caring. Then, when I am sucked in, I get batted over the head.
 I am just now seeing that the true NPD is in a closed loop. It may appear that they do change but it is false. They can cycle in the Abusive cycle which is when you have a honeymoon phase, an abusive phase and then a make -up phase. However, the NPD will never  change in any real way.
 I have waited my whole life for my M to be normal so *I* could be normal.
 It is really life in the middle of a horror movie.
 I wish I could help (((( SL)))))) but I do understand and have lived and am living it.             Love to you,  Ami

[SilverLining]

I have exactly the same thing with my M. I have for years. She seems to be "normal" i.e. caring. Then, when I am sucked in, I get batted over the head.
 I am just now seeing that the true NPD is in a closed loop. It may appear that they do change but it is false. They can cycle in the Abusive cycle which is when you have a honeymoon phase, an abusive phase and then a make -up phase. However, the NPD will never  change in any real way.
 I have waited my whole life for my M to be normal so *I* could be normal.
 It is really life in the middle of a horror movie.
 I wish I could help (((( SL)))))) but I do understand and have lived and am living it.             Love to you,  Ami

Hi Ami.  The horror movie comparison really fits.  It seems if we let the N get even a toe in the door, they jump for it like the starving vampires in the movies.  I've been trying to stay in the "medium chill" mode with my father and the rest of my FOO for several years.  But when I let my guard down just a little, around we go again.  I often wonder if I should just tell him where to go and totally cut off the connection.  But then the whole (dysfunctional) structure of the FOO would come down on my head.  So I suppose it's time to renew my commitment to the medium chill.   

The latest episode has been helpful to me in making more connections with past experience.  I suspect now the exact same thing was going on starting in my teen years (or even earlier) but I didn't have the capacity to really understand what was going on.  As soon as I reached a certain age, I became a threat to my father and the gaslighting and covert abuse really got rolling.   Now it seems obvious there really is no hope for improvement, because he would have to submit to some kind of intensive program for self change, and the basic N-ism would never allow for such a course.  My father did get some psychological counseling about 30 years ago for depression, and I have to wonder now if it failed because the therapist told him some things about himself he didn't want to hear. 

[Ami]

For my entire life I have been in the struggle with cutting off the relationship with my M,blaming myself, blaming her, trying to apply the Bible to her, screaming like a lunatic,  ,going back.  I see that it is futile now. Does the monster in the horror film ever change?
 I know how badly ir hurts, SL.               Ami
                                                                                                                     

[SilverLining]

For my entire life I have been in the struggle with cutting off the relationship with my M,blaming myself, blaming her, trying to apply the Bible to her, screaming like a lunatic,  ,going back.  I see that it is futile now. Does the monster in the horror film ever change?
 I know how badly ir hurts, SL.               Ami
                                                                                                                     

It may be one of the lessons in the horror movies.  Things seem to be okay, until the full moon comes out and the wolf inevitably appears again.  I've finally realized with N's it's like expecting to train a dog not to snarl when it feel threatened.  The Nishness is just too deep in their "character" (or biology or whatever) for them to ever make any real progress.  They may even honestly have positive intentions, but there's  almost no chance for it to ever consistently affect their behavior.   I can  detect now when my father is straining to act like a "normal" person with real interest in others and it is obviously a phony show.  As soon as he lets down his guard, the N-ishness pops right back into play.  It's like he keeps accounts in his head and has to get more out of others than he gives, keeping balance in his internal world.  If he asks a superficial question of somebody, then later he's going to get in a insult.  There's no way anybody else is going to "win" in an interaction with him.  

I'm now trying to work directly on the habitual feelings I have that I am somehow responsible for putting up with this stuff.   Thanks for the replies Ami.  I know where you are coming from. 

[debkor]

Hey Silver,


In General, being Positive in any kind of relationship..people, jobs....Yes I do think so.  To them I do believe Positive is Control. This is the only time they feel positive and even when they are in Control they sure do seem to need the negative too.  Like they get bored with the Positive/Control and need to do a Negative/control ....  Like batteries...positive/negative...IT works.. Positive/Positive , Negative, Negative...Don't' work.

I have never ever seen it last long with a relationship..as in Share...thoughts...concerns...anything Last Long and it go from a Positive to Negative  ....As long as they are controlling the relationship and how it goes..even if it appears to be on an Adult Level like Wow this is different IT DOES NOT LAST...and You Surely will be as you say Mugged...What happened.

So I agree Silver that to give up hope of anything long lasting that we all are going to be in a Much Better Place.

Love
Deb

[SilverLining]

Thanks Deb.  You sure have validated my experience.   Over the years I have had a few glimpses of an adult reciprocal relationship with my father, but it usually only lasts for a couple of minutes, and it's now obvious to me he quickly flips back to a more comfortable self-absorbed position.  If he asks one superficial question about my life, the "price" is listening to a blast of unsolicited negative advice, or maybe a half hour monologue on an interest of his.  There is no real adult give and take.  

 I had a delusional idea the last couple of years that things might improve if I bumped up my level of assertiveness in dealing with his BS, but now I think this is just falling into a trap.  If he can get a reaction out of me with his nonsense, then he is in control, which is what he really wants.  What I would consider a positive adult relationship just doesn't work for an N.


 

[Ami]

It may be one of the lessons in the horror movies.  Things seem to be okay, until the full moon comes out and the wolf inevitably appears again.  I've finally realized with N's it's like expecting to train a dog not to snarl when it feel threatened.  The Nishness is just too deep in their "character" (or biology or whatever) for them to ever make any real progress.  They may even honestly have positive intentions, but there's  almost no chance for it to ever consistently affect their behavior.   I can  detect now when my father is straining to act like a "normal" person with real interest in others and it is obviously a phony show.  As soon as he lets down his guard, the N-ishness pops right back into play.  It's like he keeps accounts in his head and has to get more out of others than he gives, keeping balance in his internal world.  If he asks a superficial question of somebody, then later he's going to get in a insult.  There's no way anybody else is going to "win" in an interaction with him.   

I'm now trying to work directly on the habitual feelings I have that I am somehow responsible for putting up with this stuff.   Thanks for the replies Ami.  I know where you are coming from




Dear Silver Lining
 I can see that you get it as I have only just got it. They will not change and it is a terrible reality but not facing it is worse.I am so sorry you had to live through this.
 It is awful for a child. It is awful for a child who is an adult. Facing it is the only way out. I think you and I are facing it. I thank God for that.                                                            Love to you Silver Lining,     Ami

[SilverLining]

 I can see that you get it as I have only just got it. They will not change and it is a terrible reality but not facing it is worse.I am so sorry you had to live through this.
 It is awful for a child. It is awful for a child who is an adult. Facing it is the only way out. I think you and I are facing it. I thank God for that.                                                            Love to you Silver Lining,     Ami

Hi Ami. 

I'm working toward taking full responsibility for my reactions to the situation, which is a difficult thing, but I believe it's the only way out.  We can't control the behaviors of others, but we can work on our own feelings.  What makes it a challenge is a lot of old conditioned reactions going back to childhood.  I still struggle with the feeling I am somehow responsible for my parents well being, and thus have to put up with their crap in order to make them feel good about themselves.   My father can only feel good if he is in a dominant position of control, and so I am stuck either playing the role of an abused 12 year old, or else letting go of the whole thing.  He isn't going to allow an adult reciprocal relationship, so letting go is the only real option for me.  I might still play along to some extent on the surface, just to not get caught up in a lot of nonsense with other members of the FOO, but internally it's time to be done with it. 

Thanks again for the feedback and validation.  As always its of great help to communicate with others who are dealing with the same stuff.