Job Advise

[Anonymous]

Well MM and Bunny:  Good to hear two arguments - for and against therapy.  I can understand where you are coming from, Bunny.  A therapist forces you to look at those things that you are in denial with.  They hold you accountable to make changes.  

But I know what you mean, MM, because I honestly know all the answers (because I have read every book on the subject and gone to hours of counseling.......) but it is just so easy to settle back into that comfortable uncomfortableness and try to just "get by."  Problem with that is I always have this sense of discontentment.  I'm not sure I will ever be over it.  I read in the Bible where Paul says he has learned to be content in plenty or in want....and I don't have a clue about that.................I always live with an underlying sense of unrest....................with anticipation that something will change - for the good.

My job.  Do I like it?  Yes, I like it.  It is a retail bookstore.  Of course my "pet" category is the psychology and recovery section.  I honestly have read every book, good and bad that we carry.  Haven't read that one on Narcissistic Family, but am going to order it.  Nice to have a bookstore.  Can order books at a discount!

If and when my mom REALLY retires, I will love it.  I honestly am the smartest person there (meaning I know how to do everything, from ordering to receiving, to computers to cash registers to you name it....)  Plus I love working with customers.  I am extremely outgoing and am a motivator to the employees.  Most anyone who meets me would think that I am this happy-go-lucky person...I am great at playing a role.  But those who know me and the dynamics with my mother can see how she gets under my skin......many of the long time employees get the same "you can do nothing right" treatment that I have gotten all my life.  One came to me and said if my mom made me feel the way she makes her feel and I grew up with that kind of disapproval then she really feels sorry for me...."  An employee said that to me!!!  In fact (a boundary thing) many of the employees are my friends and talk to me about how they can't stand my mother................................or should I say that after 8 or 9 years they have seen through her image and have recognized how she REALLY is.  I think this is the first position where people have actually gotten to know how she is.  In her multi-level marketing success she was known as a very successful upline....................no one really knew her.  She wore the persona well.  Now people have seen through the persona and can see what a phoney she really is.  But you know what, she doesn't care because they are just the "little" people who mean nothing to her.  They are not worth her time or effort because they are just lowly employees - not anyone of importance who she has to impress.

There I go - mom bashing.  I just can't stand the using my quotes as her own and making people think she knows what she is talking about when she doesn't.................it just irks me.  She doesn't have a clue how to do anything around the store.  She just walks around and sees everything that is wrong.  She takes credit for any success we have ever had at the store.  Maybe that's what an owner is supposed to do.  Sit behind a desk and tell people what she expects of them then takes all the credit when someone recognizes your efforts......................don't know, I like to roll up my sleeves and work along side the employees...............meet them where they are.....

Kelly

[mighty mouse]

Oh my, Kelly. A book store. That's like a candy store to me. I'm afraid I wouldn't get anything done. I'd be on the floor reading some tome or other. It sounds like you really like it there save for mummy's interference. Ya know it sounds like she might be looking for a way out. Maybe you could suggest giving her a salary until it equals her investment so that you could eventually buy her out? That way she could retire and not be around.

I wish you would call that bossy nag, Dr. Laura  
My husband likes listening to her and when we are in the car I ask him "honey, do you want to listen the the bossy nag"? He'll always say yes. She is an ESTJ personality type (as is Judge Judy), so if you do call her, you have to be very concrete. I'm not a concrete personality and I'm sure I would get nowhere with her. You sound like you might do better. It would be fun for grins if you can bear her ubiquitous impatient attitude. And she may actually give you something to work with? It might be a 50/50 proposition anyway. If you do it, please let us know how it goes.

MM

[bunny]

A therapist forces you to look at those things that you are in denial with.  They hold you accountable to make changes.

Uh, no. A therapist doesn't force you to do things. They don't hold you accountable to make changes. That isn't their function. Their function is to travel on a journey with you of exploration. And they are supposed to be like a guide who is experienced and safe. But sometimes we get mad at the guide, think the guide is a charlatan, a loser, or a persecutor.  If it's a really good guide, he just keeps on guiding no matter what.

Unfortunately there are lame therapists who are mediocre or worse. They don't understand how change happens and they waste their clients' time. I always say: get a really good therapist, otherwise it's kind of pointless.

 I am in favor of reading psych. and self help books but it is rather like comparing apples and oranges. But if you have a lame therapist, then reading books is definitely the better choice.

bunny

[lizbeth as Guest]

When my schizophrenic mother cracked up for good (not to come back to even a semblance of normalcy until a few lucid moments towards the end of her life), I spent a lot of wasted time trying to figure out what the heck could be going on in her head.  It is just as useless in this case, I agree.  I needed to spend more time figuring out how I was going to deal with the situation.

Lizbeth

Based on the few sessions he concluded that I didn't like my mom much and would probably be happier not working with her day in and day out.  Why do you think that is so bad, Bunny?

Here is what I see as his mistake:

It's easy to quickly conclude that you'd be happier not working for your mother because you present it that way. A therapist needs to take more time to reflect on the situation. He shouldn't take people's words at face value. If he dispenses easy advice, does he deserve $100/hour? I don't think so. He colluded with your idea (and your mom's) that there is a "quick and easy" solution to this situation. He didn't analyze the complications or look at unconscious agendas and motives. This makes him lame in my view.

Is there some reason you feel I should stay other than good pay and flexibility?  The way I react to her is a big issue.  I am so hypersensitive to anything she says, I don't think she feels real safe around me - I let her have it at the drop of a hat.  But that was after years and years of stuffing my anger.  It is almost like I cannot NOT blow up when I'm around her.  She really drives me crazy.  And so many people have said to me that she will never change..........that is the part that scares me.  That we will live the next twenty years in "walking on eggshells" mode.  How can she want that?  Why does she want me to stay so bad when she doesn't trust me?  And I don't trust her.  It's like I am holding my breath when I am around her waiting for some little thing to throw me over the deep end.

She does not think logically or rationally. She can tolerate your losing your temper. She knows you'll get over it. Actually you are dealing with a semi-irrational person. And you are also behaving less rationally because you don't have the skills to deal with her.

The reasons I think you might stay at this job are that (a) it's a good job; (b) you might choose another job that's even worse which will give you an excuse to return to this job anyway; (c) this job may be improvable if you get enough therapy to detach emotionally from your mother. Then she won't bother you that much.

You want to read your mother's mind. I can tell you that she is not thinking anything logical, useful, reasonable. It's all a bunch of crap. There is nothing useful to be found in pondering her mind. There is a lot more interesting stuff going on in your mind.

bunny

[Anonymous]

Geez, guys and gals, I didn't think I would get so much input on all of this..but thanks!!

Never figure my mom out.  Only work on myself.  Find a therapist who can work with me.  Have an idea.  Write out my bio - two to three pages and deliver it to the therapist before I go in.  That way he can have all the preliminary stuff read and we can jump right in on working on me and how I am going to deal................

It's all about liking me.  Knowing that I will never be able to change Nmom.  Knowing that if I allow her to, she will hold all the keys to my future.  If I just show her love and patience and act like I don't care what she does (like I do with the tuition to the private school - don't care so she doesn't hold it against me...............) then I can live life without so much angst.

But what do I do when she pushes my buttons at work?  Last week she whispered under her breath if I was going to say something to a key employee about a piercing that Nmom doesn't like....................and I said no.  Then I remained silent.  It killed her.

But am I to just ignore her?  It doesn't seem very professional.

Work on Kelly.  Work on Kelly.  Can't change mom.  Can't change mom!!

Good night and have a pleasant tomorrow!
   
Kell

[Anonymous]

Have an idea.  Write out my bio - two to three pages and deliver it to the therapist before I go in.  That way he can have all the preliminary stuff read and we can jump right in on working on me and how I am going to deal................

Interesting. The therapist should read a 2-3 page bio before you even meet them. BTW they will be curious about why you want to control the process so much. Also why you want to do the therapy outside the session hour. I'm interested myself.

It's all about liking me.  Knowing that I will never be able to change Nmom.  Knowing that if I allow her to, she will hold all the keys to my future.  If I just show her love and patience and act like I don't care what she does (like I do with the tuition to the private school - don't care so she doesn't hold it against me...............) then I can live life without so much angst.

You don't have to show her love or patience but I agree with the rest.

But what do I do when she pushes my buttons at work?  Last week she whispered under her breath if I was going to say something to a key employee about a piercing that Nmom doesn't like....................and I said no.  Then I remained silent.  It killed her.

You handled this nicely. If you had a therapist, you could vent to him about what a whack-job your mother is, while maintaining a professional demeanor at work.

But am I to just ignore her?  It doesn't seem very professional.

It is professional to ignore someone who whispers under their breath.


Keep up the good work,
bunny

[Anonymous]

Yes, this clandestine, "them against Us" mentality.  When it is really "us against you, lady...."

I have had this feeling that I have had to "protect" my employees from my mother.  Maybe I am trying to keep them from knowing how it feels to be constantly nitpicked..................it's not a very comfortable feeling.  Even the girl with the piercing told me that my mom constantly comes up to her and actually picks off pieces of lint or hairs from her clothing..something she has done to me forever.  It's almost like she is trying to come up to you and straighten the way you look.  Another thing she does (and I wish i could videotape her doing this and then play it back to her) is manipulate and contort her face and body as I am speaking.....almost like she can control what I am saying by her body language?

So here's the newest test.  She and I get invited to California for some RR with a marketing group we belong to.  Last year they served some nice wine, or pop  or juice.  I was going to have a glass of wine but I knew it would make my mom so uncomfortable ("we don't drink, we don't cuss and we don't smoke.............) so I didn't.  This year, I will.  Gutsy, huh?  And that from a 45 year old woman who really doesn't drink anymore (used to abuse it in my teens and 20s..)  Sick, isn't it that I even have to declare I am going to do that.  Or care.

She'll probably get mad at me and in the next "encounter" we have she'll bring that up.  Then I'll want to run as fast as I can away from her.

Kell

PS  And Bunny, do you think the therapist would be open to reading the bio?  Or that he would think I too controlling?  Didn't get your statement

[Anonymous]

Interesting. The therapist should read a 2-3 page bio before you even meet them. BTW they will be curious about why you want to control the process so much. Also why you want to do the therapy outside the session hour. I'm interested myself.

That's the quote I was trying to paste.......new to this but am experimenting with smileys and quotes and stuff...........

[Portia]

Wow, Kell, I just caught up on the last 3 pages here. A book-store! I wouldn’t want to leave. It sounds like my kinda job. Got some thoughts for you…

When it is really "us against you, lady...."

No it isn’t. You know that right? It’s you against her, no-one else.

I have had this feeling that I have had to "protect" my employees from my mother.

Well you don’t. It doesn’t help either them or you. I did this too, ‘protected’ my staff from my boss. It’s a waste of time (unless you are actually representing your staff when your boss is taking an unrealistic view of what they do etc). People aren’t going to ‘see the light’ and respect you more, or recognise your achievements and worth, simply because you ‘protect’ them. It doesn’t happen. Sad but true. Yes, you need to take the responsibilities that go with your position (which is..?) ie. manage staff? but you can’t then be 'one of them' too. With your mom in overall control, which is how it reads, staff see you as your mother’s daughter, which is not the same as being one of them. And you say ‘your employees’ so you’re managing them, right? They are not primarily your friends when they are at work.

Even the girl with the piercing told me that my mom constantly comes up to her and actually picks off pieces of lint or hairs from her clothing

What did you say to the girl? What would have been a managerial, professional, self-respecting response? If you entered into a conversation with her about what your mom is like….you destroy any boundaries that might exist. You make your employee – your employee – your co-conspirator and your allay against your mother. What does the employee think? If you do talk to employees like this, they won’t have any real respect for you and they’ll use the situation to mould their working environment to what suits them best, winding you up in the process. Do you think it’s okay for employees to come to work with lint and hairs on their clothes? Maybe it is okay to a point (my H is allergic to cat and dog hairs. I don’t want to buy books with those hairs on them). But have you made a decision about whether this employee actually dresses appropriately or not? Every little tiny event like this needs proper, careful consideration. Not the quick and easy way out, blame mom.

Saying ‘no’ to mom about mentioning the piercing is good. Saying ‘no, I don’t see a problem with it, do you?’ would be addressing a difference of opinion to reach a solution. And whose decision would prevail? Who has the final say on such matters? If you’re working in a situation where roles and responsibilities are not clear-cut, why don’t you get some job descriptions written? If you want to be responsible for front-of-house, for the day-to-day operation of the store, say so, get it written, agree. Then you’ll be able to say ‘No, I think the piercing is fine, in line with our image’ or whatever. What do you think about the piercing? If you’ve got a pretty conservative clientele, maybe your piercing-sporting employee will lose you business? What are your real views on this miniscule issue and why? Just stuff for you to consider. (Do you approve of the piercing simply because your mom won’t???)

I was going to have a glass of wine but I knew it would make my mom so uncomfortable

You knew that you would feel uncomfortable, not your mom. Not having a glass of wine is YOUR problem, your decision. You decided not to drink because you didn’t want to deal with the consequences. How you react to your mom is your responsibility. She does not ‘make you’ do anything. Take a fake reefer too and try lighting it up. No don’t, what’s the point. You’d only be ‘getting back’ at her, trying to shock. I shouldn’t recommend anything so childish and adversarial….tempting though those sort of responses may be. They achieve nothing.

I love your openness to comments Kell. You remind me of parts of me and a few people I’ve worked with. And you seem up for it. When you said earlier in the thread that you were emotional about the posts here, have you thought hard about what caused that response? Just for your thoughts. Take it easy! Best, Portia, yeah, sorry, aka Lottery guest as if I’m not like a pimple on my own nose.

[Anonymous]

Portia:  Ok, the first thing that jumps out at me is the lack of boundaries I have with my employees.  Yes, I admit I have rallied them around me.  And it has become us against HER.  Why did I do this?  Well as I think about it, it is the first time in my life that I have been able to expose her for the phoney that she really is.  It is the first time that some regular people could see through the persona and actually see the dysfunction.

It first started when she hired a guy as the manager and she started throwing little hissy fits when he would do things without consulting her.  He and I had a conversation where he told me he had never been micromanaged before.  He was the guy who gave me "permission" to divorce my husband.  My mom wouldn't.

Then later my boyfriend came to work for us.  She didn't want us living in "sin" so she offered that he could live in her basement.  Well, the next thing you know my dad is saying that he didn't feel like the man of the house anymore.  My boyfriend was coming and going as he pleased.  Not showing up and not calling in to work.  He'd come in later in the evening with liquor on his breath and the employees started coming to me with their frustrations about him.  We broke up and all hell broke loose when I demanded that we let him go!!  My mom defended him.

So since then............about three years ago.  In fact it was three years ago in October 2001 that I declared war with my mom and the business was pretty much rocked.  We fought and fought.....and I finally left.  It was almost like my mom and my ex-boyfriend were having an emotional affair.....................it felt like she chose him and his well being over me.  I felt betrayed.

So even though I love this job, a lot of water has gone under the bridge.  The employees don't respect her for siding with him and they probably don't respect me because I thrash talk my mom.  And even when I go up to the nucleus of employees and tell them that I am going to stop talking negatively about my mom, when she does something that bothers them, they run right to me and spill their guts!
K

[Portia]

Hiya again Kell, phew, the more you say, the more I feel way out of my depth. On the Bio Q, would you expect the therp to read your bio for free, in his/her time? Or in your first session?

About the business: seriously, clearly defined job roles are needed for you and mom. And then you both need to stick to them. Literally separating out your jobs! And keeping off each other's stuff. She doesn't mess with the store, you stay away from judging her sales pitches, or whatever they are.

Did someone above mention buying her out? What a great solution. Maybe she could be a freelance 'buyer' or 'rep' or some grand title? She gets a salary and you take control.

Everything must be in writing. It usually is, in business. P

PS:

that I have been able to expose her for the phoney that she really is

does this help anyone? Does this achieve anything for you?

[Anonymous]

The ONLY thing it does for me is give me some peace of mind.  Somehow it makes me not alone in this saga...............does it accomplish anything else?  Probably not.  Is it good?  No.  It just helps me to justify my feelings.  You know, everyone wants to think that their parents will love and nurture them and when you find out that the relationship has always been one of control and not nurture, it feels good to expose the abuser!!!

It's like being required to report abuse when you see it in a daycare or something like that.  It's like I got to report her abuse!  Not that it did me any good.  Probably made me look bad.

Buy her out?  No.  She has too much money in the business.  We will pay her back slowly but I think it will probably take 20 years or more!!  And she doesn't even get a paycheck.  The business cannot afford it and she doesn't need the money (remember she's got lots already......)

And the bio for the therapist.  Don't you think it would take 5 sessions just to get through the stuff to be able to work on the stuff?  If he read it the first session and he read my conclusions, maybe he would be like you guys and tell me I am being totally stupid.  Or I need boundaries or something!  I just hate to waste time trying to get to the bottom of it all when I already know what I think is the problem.

Whatya think?

[bunny]

I have had this feeling that I have had to "protect" my employees from my mother.  Maybe I am trying to keep them from knowing how it feels to be constantly nitpicked..................it's not a very comfortable feeling.  Even the girl with the piercing told me that my mom constantly comes up to her and actually picks off pieces of lint or hairs from her clothing..something she has done to me forever.

Does the employee ask your mother to please stop touching her? That might solve the problem.

Another thing she does (and I wish i could videotape her doing this and then play it back to her) is manipulate and contort her face and body as I am speaking.....almost like she can control what I am saying by her body language?

This is a perfect thing to bring up in a therapy session...

So here's the newest test.  She and I get invited to California for some RR with a marketing group we belong to.  Last year they served some nice wine, or pop  or juice.  I was going to have a glass of wine but I knew it would make my mom so uncomfortable ("we don't drink, we don't cuss and we don't smoke.............) so I didn't.  This year, I will.  Gutsy, huh?  And that from a 45 year old woman who really doesn't drink anymore (used to abuse it in my teens and 20s..)  Sick, isn't it that I even have to declare I am going to do that.  Or care.

If you drink the wine and she gets mad at you, can you plan a strategy ahead of time? How you will respond to her?

PS  And Bunny, do you think the therapist would be open to reading the bio?  Or that he would think I too controlling?  Didn't get your statement.

Okay here is more of an explanation. You send a therapist whom you haven't met, and don't know whether you will see again, a several-page autobiography to save time. A therapist probably has seen a few of these before (from others) and because of his training and knowledge, has certain ideas about a potential client who sends written material prior to the first session. The therapist's idea will be something like this: (a) the potential client is extremely anxious; (b) the potential client is impatient to get to the "magical solution;" (c) the patient doesn't want to spontaneously tell me her story over time; (d) the patient wants to control the speed of the therapy and how I learn her story; (e) the patient may be sending this bio to other therapists as a "form letter" so it's impersonal which says something about her wish to keep a safe distance; (f) the patient wants the therapist to be readily available outside the boundaries of the therapy session; etc. Well, I could go on but I'll stop here.

bunny

[bunny]

And the bio for the therapist.  Don't you think it would take 5 sessions just to get through the stuff to be able to work on the stuff?

I think it would take a lot more than five sessions and it would come out in small titrations, not as a summary of your life and problems.

If he read it the first session and he read my conclusions, maybe he would be like you guys and tell me I am being totally stupid.

I doubt that anyone thinks you are totally stupid. And if a therapist says or implies it, he would be totally stupid.

Or I need boundaries or something!  I just hate to waste time trying to get to the bottom of it all when I already know what I think is the problem.

The therapist will not criticize/judge you about your boundaries. I know you don't want to take time to process your feelings but it's far more effective to do that.


bunny

[Wildflower]

Hi Kelly,

Just wanted to chime in on the subject of writing to a therapist.  I think bunny has some great points about writing an initial bio and sending it to a therapist.  This whole process takes time, and if you knew everything about everything that's going on and upsetting you, you wouldn't be here, right?  You'd be happy in whatever solution you'd found for dealing with your mother and living a fulfilled life, right?  

But in terms of writing in general, I just wanted to share this.  With one exception, my therapist never reads anything I bring into our sessions.  She always asks me to read out loud because that helps her understand how I've heard and interpreted something.  She's more interested in helping me find ways of dealing with a situation that's true to myself than she is in telling me the 'right' way to handle any situation.

Hang in there,
Wildflower