Author Topic: Michael Jackson  (Read 5496 times)

lighter

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Michael Jackson
« on: June 26, 2009, 09:39:59 AM »

With all the stories about Michael Jackson's life....

one wonders about the voice he experienced as a child.

Ironically, he gained the globe's collective ear,

while his personal voice seemed to grow more faint.


Mo2



 



 

Gaining Strength

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Re: Michael Jackson
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2009, 10:35:30 AM »
Good point - but I'm in the boat of who cares - he got away with being a child molester and is still celebrated.  I think THAT is a crime.  I wonder how it feels for those children who are so voiceless in the face of his celebrity.  They are the voiceless I care about surrounding Michael Jackson.

lighter

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Re: Michael Jackson
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2009, 12:22:01 PM »
I've always thought of Michael Jackson as a child......

not an adult....

which is odd now that I think about it.

He seemed bent on self destructing behind an unrecognizable puppet face.

I wonder if that goes back to not having a voice in childhood.

Mo2








sunblue

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Re: Michael Jackson
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2009, 01:33:49 PM »
After watching all the coverage, it is clear to me that Michael grew up with "voicelessness" issues.  Perhaps his domineering father, Joe, was the narcissist.  It was clear that he was both physically and emotionally abusive to both Michael and his siblings.  The level of self-destructive and unnatural behaviors that Michael engaged in-----from the never-ending plastic surgery to the desire to live as a child (via a Peter Pan complex) which he manifested through his Neverland ranch and culminating in the numerous accusations about child molestation----must have emanated from serious childhood issues.  Perhaps it was because Michael was regarded as the most talented of his family (which resulted in the N "(dad Joe) to control him and make his talents and successes his own) that he appears to be the most affected by his family.  He certainly appeared to be the most sensitive, vulnerable and affected by his family issues.  His eagerness to please, to be loved by legions of adoring fans (although few real-world relationships) indicate to me that, like the rest of us, he was forever on the search to be loved by his family---no doubt, especially his dad..........

In the end, despite the amazing musical legacy he left behind, he remains a tragic and sad figure.  It was so obvious he never achieved any level of happiness in his life.  He was  never able to find fulfilling love in his life.  Even his children, whom he clearly adored, were raised to "mask" themselves.  Like his poignant song, he could never look at the "man in the mirror."  Indeed, through all the many plastic surgeries and physical changes, it appeared his goal was to transform himself into a white woman.

What an absolute tragedy that despite unbelievable gifts and talents, amazing opportunities that only a handful of people will ever experience in a lifetime and everything a person might want in life, including three beautiful children, he died such a lonely, unhappy and pained man.

One thing I think is particularly clear.  All the strange behaviors that he exhibited had to come from somewhere.  A person does not suddenly just decide to exhibit the self-destructive behavors he did without real causes.    How very unhappy he must have been throughout his life!  And what pain and hurt he must also have caused not only the families and children he was alleged to have hurt but also the family, siblings and others in his life who genuinely loved him and wanted to help him.

In an interview, he acknowledged the pain his father caused him but that he completely forgave his father.......An acknowledgement that came much too easly, I think. 

Just goes to show you how incredibly important childhood experiences and parenting can be in a person's life.  It changes not only who you are but who you could be.

BonesMS

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Re: Michael Jackson
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2009, 01:59:12 PM »
So true.

Now the question remains....what happens to his children?  What provisions were made for them in the event that the unthinkable happens, which has now occurred?  I read a report that not even his family is sure there is even a will.

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Lupita

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Re: Michael Jackson
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2009, 06:17:18 PM »
People who have a normal childhood do not try to achieve. People who have been mistreated by parents try to achieve and be better and obtaib something.

Einstain, Mozart, and many others. Peopl who are contecnt with them selves dop not try to acheive, and just have a normal life.

Eckhart Tolle tried to suicide several times before conv erting into one of the most famouys writers in self help books, Wayne Dyer have alcoholic father and eneded up in an orphanage before he converted in one of the most important celebrities in self help.

Scape goats try to get better to ever deserve the love of their parents. The golden children feel so special thatr they donot need to do anything because thay already have what the needy is looking for.

Lupita

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Re: Michael Jackson
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2009, 06:23:51 PM »
My point, is that MJ must have been mistreated as a child, ptherwise he would have been content with his nose and his color. And not to try to be better than his sisters and brothers.

BonesMS

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Re: Michael Jackson
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2009, 10:54:32 AM »
I know this may sound harsh...what about his children and the other children who were victimized by him?  Where are their voices?  Having been victimized by the NWomb-Donor, her pedophile boyfriend, then the court system, I can identify with the children who were molested, then silenced by his money!  I hope those children REGAIN their voices!!!!!

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Hopalong

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Re: Michael Jackson
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2009, 12:30:53 PM »
Me too, Bones.
I felt pity for Jackson as a tortured child. It wrung the heart to watch his distortion over the years.

But once he was grown and gone where he went, I felt cold rage about the parents who delivered their kids to him, and for Jackson himself for his sense of entitlement to sleep with them (at the least) and generally mess with their heads to gratify his whatever it was. (I suspect simple paedophelia, but his money would insulated him from the diagnosis, I figure...sick country.)

I can grieve the talent and music and boy he once was, that makes sense to me. (Though in his singing I didn't like  "yips" and "yaps" as one reviewer put it.)

Grieving the 50 year old as though he was Jesus crucified doesn't make sense to me.

I think he was somewhat insane, very gifted, and should not have been allowed near children.

I immediately focus on what it might have been like to be a young boy, at night, alone with Jackson. Thrilling and scary and perhaps painful and definitely confusing and without doubt WRECKING to that child's own future mental health.

How dare people avert their eyes? That upsets me a lot. It's like...be rich, flashy, and interesting enough, and a little child molestation isn't really a big deal.

I don't "get" FANS, in general. It's like they leave their brains and morality behind...

Hops


« Last Edit: June 28, 2009, 12:40:39 PM by Hopalong »
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

BonesMS

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Re: Michael Jackson
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2009, 06:22:01 PM »
And what frightens me is the possibility that his three children will be handed over to the grandparents, which includes Narcississtic, Abusive Grandfather!  God help those innocent kids!

Bones
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JustKathy

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Re: Michael Jackson
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2009, 07:08:14 PM »
I've always felt empathy towards MJ because I do believe that his father is a N. Many of the things that Michael did as an adult, I have done myself (to a much lesser extent, of course). I have remained very child-like in certain areas, like buying plush toys, children's books, etc. for myself. My entire childhood was spent under the control of my N mother. I was forced to wear the clothes that she chose for me, play with the toys that she chose for me, and could only listen to the music she chose for me. So when I became an adult, and could suddenly have a Beanie Baby if I wanted one, I would buy it. At 49, I will often buy a toy or candy for myself on impulse, I guess because it allows me to have what I was deprived of - a normal childhood.

Another thing that I've always sort of connected with, are the rumors that have circulated over the years that MJ changed his face because he hated the fact that he llooked like his father. Also, the father apparently picked on him relentlessly for having a big nose. I, myself, have had cosmetic surgery to make myself look less like my mother. I got her looks, and even her voice. The work I've had done is minor, but if I had been well off financially, I probably would have done much more. I've also been coloring my hair for 30 years. I changed it the day I moved out at 18 and never looked back. We both had the same brunette hair, and I changed mine to blonde. I can't live with looking in the mirror and seeing her looking back at me.

Jackson clearly had problems much deeper than the norm for an N child, but he lived the kind of life that only made the problems worse.

As for his children, CNN reported that he had specified, that in the event of his death, the children were to stay with their nanny, who has cared for them since birth. This is probably the best thing for the children, but it won't play out that way. Blood relatives come first, so the courts are likely to award custody to the grandparents. Possibly Debbie Rowe (birth mother), but my guess is that yes, they will be in the home of the very people who emotionally damaged Michael. :(
« Last Edit: June 28, 2009, 07:15:23 PM by JustKathy »

Hopalong

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Re: Michael Jackson
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2009, 09:37:49 PM »
I felt for him too, JK, truly -- and how I feel for you wanting to change yourself physically because of your resemblance to your mother. I never gave that consequence of being a child of an N much thought because I resemble my "good parent". How awful those feelings must be that you were driven to such extremes.

Makes me angry for you, and reminds me again how profound his disturbance and self-loathing were.

The only reason I don't feel pain for him is because I am nearly hysterical all the time about the abuse of children, and what the media and the culture tell us about women's and children's bodies somehow being less sacred and less valuable....makes me crazy.

I remember when Woody Allen married his stepdaughter. I turned instantly from a fan to a foe and have never seen a film of his since.

Perhaps I should separate the art from the artist...watched a bit of MJ video today and enjoyed it. But I just don't understand the "worship" of fans. Never did with Elvis', either, and I quite liked him.

hugs
Hops
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Ami

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Re: Michael Jackson
« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2009, 10:51:12 PM »
(((((JustKathy)  Your post touched me.       Ami
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

JustKathy

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Re: Michael Jackson
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2009, 11:25:37 AM »
I do have to say, that in my case, my efforts to look less like my N mother have made me more self-confident. I like myself better now. Besides a few minor cosmetic things, I've also worked very hard to stay thin, and fit, nice muscle tone, etc. M never took care of herself, always sat around the house eating bon-bons, and look like an old hag by the time she was 30 (some of that may have been her personality disorder taking its toll - her world was so full of hatred ). Anyway, I actually feel better about myself for going through the transformation from the pudgy frumpy teenager that she wanted me to be, into a thin, fit, youthful looking woman. Aside from the benefits of losing the once striking resemblance to M, my body is healthier for it.

In MJ's case, I don't he he was ever able to reach the point where he liked himself, or liked his looks. One surgery wasn't enough. He was SO insecure that he had to keep going. I do think he was trying to "escape" from his past. When you're raised by someone who is an extreme N, you're damaged goods, and his case, the damage was probably too extensive to deal with. Even though he was always surrounded by people, he was truly alone. When you're a huge celebrity, people just tell you what you want to hear.

It seemed that right up until the end, the father had control over him. Immediately after Jackson died, the father was on the scene, took his children, and has been very vocal about the investigation. Even in death, Michael is still being controlled by him.

Interestingly, I grew up in the Hollywood area, and N mother tried to force my younger brother into showbiz as well. He never wanted it, but like Joe Jackson, she was determined that her son become a star. He was forced into private acting schools, figure skating lessons, archery lessons, dialect coaching . . . etc etc. He was also deprived of a normal childhood while she was doing everything she could to make him "marketable." Fortunately, he ended it when he turned 18 and went to college, but he never made it as an actor. MJ was already a superstar by 18, so there was no turning back.

I worked in the talent agency business early on in my career, and one of those agencies represented children. I could tell you stories that would curl your hair. Every single one of the parents were Ns, BIG TIME. I left for an agency that didn't rep children, because I couldn't stand to watch these poor kids being forced into something they didn't want to do just to please Mom. In recent years, many Hollywood talent agencies have dropped their childrens divisions, because the parents are just too difficult to deal with. Stage mothers, especially the pageant moms, are the worst form of narcissism you'll ever see. It's very very sad.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2009, 11:58:14 AM by JustKathy »

Ami

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Re: Michael Jackson
« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2009, 02:01:51 PM »
Dear ((Kathy))
 My  theory  based on my finally starting to heal is that we,as children of N's ,were deprived of mirroring. We have a  sense of being  different and unacceptable . It is  a huge sense of shame.
 If someone can  see us and mirror  a true picture of ourselves, we can change.
  We can question the deep,visceral feeling that we are bad(shame) and replace it with a sense that we are human. I am doing this, by the grace of God, and I mean that entirely.
 I could relate to Slyvia Plath in the Bell Jar. She was surrounded by walls of glass and she did not know how to get out.
 When I hear about a person dying like Michael Jackson, I think of him dying of a broken heart combined with annonymity.                 Ami
 
 
« Last Edit: June 29, 2009, 08:47:04 PM by Ami »
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung