I am so fortunate

[cindy]

I've been reading about the pain you all go through, and realizing how lucky I am.  I was married to my N for 18 years, but he only had me partially programmed, and he is my first one.  So I'm bouncing back quickly.

You are very brave to explore these feelings and support each other.  I am so much happier since I got away.  Yes, he stalks me, yes, I'm financially and emotionally needy from all the havoc he created, but I decide when I sleep and what I eat and I pay bills first - what a relief.

Life is good when you start to get yourself back.  Or when you get a self apart from them.  Life would be great if I could get my doorknobs back!

[clara]

Wow, OK, I am listening carefully because I am so conflicted about my lousy marriage with N, yet I can't see leaving because we have three kids, yadda, yadda.  Your new-found happiness and freedon are so reassuring.

Could I ask: Do you have kids? How bad was your husband?  When was your final point of decision about leaving (or did he leave you?)  How did you tell the kids? How did you tell the people at work? (I guess I am still narcissisitic, worried if my dear colleagues at work would still like me!)

Sorry to be so prying, and if the questions cause you pain, just ignore them. I am just caught in such a torment. I seem to have my situation figured out with N-husband, but still can't decide about leaving. I am so worried that maybe somehow he doesn't really deserve being left. Or maybe it's just my fears that I can't face? Or maybe there is something wrong with me and I am distorting his problems? Ugh, I just don't know....

[cindy]

Not prying at all, and in fact it's comfortable for me, because I worked as an advocate with a displaced homemaker-type population, and because to be open, for me, is part of my healing.

I was trapped by all that you say, but after I got out it seems others had a better read on it than I did, and I got the "about time" comments.  You may be surprised.  Plus you're such a better person, not being sucked dry by an N, that you're much more fun to be around.

The kids - one son was still at home and is an addict, was in trouble, and I stayed the last two years because I was sure he'd stay with his father, and was also sure that was the worst thing that could happen.  My son chose to stay with me - kids are smarter than you think.

My ex had a secret life that included a car, cell phone, and a room he used with his married girlfriend.  Even after he became blatant about the girlfriend I didn't kick him out, until I went to the post office where he said he was going to work on a Sunday, hollering and ringing doorbells, as our son had come home drunk.  We already had a plan on how to handle it, and N was to take the lead.  Long story short, I found him at his girlfriend's, his attny had told him to stop seeing her, and here our son was a runaway and in trouble.  I'm not sure I would have even kicked him out then, but he lied about it and for some reason that was the last straw.  Here our son might OD and kill himself, and N was whining about "You said he probably wouldn't come home until tonight" and "Three other couples at work are having an affair."  Sheeeit.

The next six months were hell.  I even started having anxiety attacks for untreated depression.  He tried everything in the book to hurt me, including trying to rip my 70 year old mother off for $32,000.  He tried to mess with my son's substance abuse treatment, and only stopped when I told him I would demand he take a psych eval and report him for buying my daughter and her minor friends beer.  I could go on and on.

He still stalks me.  His girlfriend used to help, but as far as I can tell she's stopped.  Being stalked sucks.

But I look 10 years younger.  I'm not walking on eggshells.  Life is SO much simpler.  I'm making progress.  Best of all I happy.  I didn't even know I was miserable, I was only trying as hard as I could.  He controled thing by keeping me confused.  I still have some bad habits I was taught to get me to feel bad about myself and do what he wanted, but I recognize them for what they are and so can work on them.

My "revenge" - he has to live with himself and a person very much the same.

Do you want to stay?  Aside from the kids, the coworkers?  Mine wasn't abd at first, but he never was a good partner because he needed control while appearing and saying he was controlled by me.  He was also always secretive and lied.  Ns do this for a feeling of mastery, from what I can tell.  I'm an honest and honestly caring person and I deserve better.  I can't believe what I put up with, but didn't have a clue how bad it was until I got out for a while and "detoxed".  He did all the no friends know-it-all obnoxious things you read here, but he was very good at smoozing and some people never got it.  Most did, but he had me convinced they thought he was great.  Now I'm embarrassed I was ever with him.

Some counselors are good at helping you sort out your feelings.  You may want to start there.

[Alan]

I found this site no more than 10 mins ago and I feel I have found new friends.  Time tonight is short and I'll give a thumbnail.

After my first divorce, did the therapy thing, dated a psychologist, got out of my codependancy (to a major degree) and learned and read everything on relationships.  I dicovered yoga, or more specifically, Tantra and worked further and deeper. I have my garbage but my heart is in the right place.  

I am attuned to most people.  I can read emotions well and I am pretty good at seeing people with issues quickly.  Some issues are normal.  But I can also see major problems. And, of course, she had me doubting my own experience.  My pain comes from the fact intuitively I knew there was a problem but couldn't put my finger on it.  Buy my N has great "skills" at hiding.  I didn't trust myself. And we know how N's can manipulate.  And....my N is an alcoholic and sexually abused when young.  Dad was a well known and respected professional althlete and coach.  And an alcoholic.  No wonder my soon to be x wife has problems.  She has many of the classic symptoms:  Love will conquer all, questions the legitimacy of therapy, lies, finds a way to be the center of attention, no real intimacy, inappropriate behavior, broke thru most of my boundries, untrustworthy, focused on her looks (and she is a world class looker), etc.  We have had our major problems over the past 10 months, even got her into therapy.  My spin is that the therapist either did not see the N or just focused on what my ex wanted to work on. I can see where her  16 y/o daughter is following in her footsteps.  And her next oldest brother has the same tendancies, except he has a little more balance to him.  But not when he has been drinking.  My research explained to me why my N just turned it off towards me.  Sure the fighting and questions dug at her deeper problem. However, the latest cause was mentioned in one of the websites I found about an hour ago.  

My wife and I worked at the same company and were laid off on the same day.  At this point I'm guessing (she won't revel anything to me) the ego deflating job search and the worthlessness of not working must be devestating to the ex.  I feel very sad for here.  I can be a cosmic guy at times and truly believe we were put together for a reason.  Her lover traits played right into my needs and they sure did fill me up.  As a truth seeker, I was in her life to help to stop the repetitive destructive pattens of her life.  I couldn't finish the job.  I now know why.

On night 2 weeks ago, I was surfing and actually stumbled into a self-help site and looked at abuse and recovery and discovered N.  I have read everything I can.  I was like most; devistated, hurt, lost.  Once I moved out and started to reclaim myself by reading and studying, which my N does not believe in (except in her work but can't see the similarities).  

Once I read at least 3 websites by 3 different authors and the info was the same, I started to feel like my old self, by learning something new and confirming everything I experienced (and I freaked out when I read descriptions of the illness using the exact words I did).  I immediately let go of the ex and felt a whole lot better.  I am lucky, I have the tools to understand and it helps me move on.  And start over again.

I feel for everyone on this board.  One of my sadnesses is that I saw this coming on 3 years ago but did not trust myself.  I now understand why she is who she is (did I mention I am here 4th husband, she is friends with 2 [and that is a weird situation, she feels good about herself because she believes that makes it alright, #2 was a sick sick guy and she stayed for 3 years being abused by him]).

So much for being short.  And I have more stories to tell if appropriate.  I recomend a book I found in the library.  An easy read, the first part lists the N traits, which for me were almost exact in my experience, and also goes into and understandable psych background.  It is "Why is it Always About You?  Saving yourslef from the N in your Life" by Sandy Hotchkiss, LCSW, 2002, The Free Press.  I highly suggest this book.  It worked for me.  

Thanks for letting me spew, I do that well.  I look forward to reading more on these boards.  It feels great to get back into reality.   The more you give it away the more you get back.

[cindy]

Alan, isn't it such a relief to stop being sucked dry?  Best wishes.

[Alan]

Thanks for the sentiment.  I feel renewed.  Things really crashed about 7 weeks ago, and now I feel close the old "Al"  When I divorced the first time, I cried and cried.  Then I cried and cried again over 2 break ups with a different person.  So, I don't "bury" emotions.  Over this break up, I have felt bad, devestated for a while, empty, etc., but I cried a total of 10 seconds, because once "you know the secret", do your work, and be smart about it, I know I had no control and I married an sick sick person.

[Nic]

Welcome Alan,
If you look back at my posts from the past several months, you'll be able to piece together my story without my having to introduce myself and all my baggage at this time!
I want to say WELCOME! Like you, i stumbled on to this board after years of wondering what the missing link was.  I had gone to therapy, I understood everything and was cleansed of everything except for voicelessness.  Although often brought on by being caught in the web of Ns, many other situations can rob us of our voices, and from early on.
I was particularly interested in your post because my mother and father are both Ns..my mother was/is an alcoholic and I grew up with this.  I'm now forty..( btw. I'll be starting a new thread soon because whenever anyone has revealed his age here it seems to be in the forties (40s) something I find fascinating and that has alot to do with that particular stage of development and is requiring and begging for discussion!   )
I read how you describe your ex as preoccupied with her looks, abused sexually as a child, wanting to be the center of attention etc. , you were describing my mother.  
I've broken off relations with my adopted N family ( read up on this from my posts at will) but I've begun to study them.  Almost as if they were specimens under the microscope. I study me in relation to them whereas before it was the other way 'round.  In an effort to gauge where I am at in this whole sordide affair.
You sound absolutely raptured by your discovery of Narcissism, like I was, and then voicelessness.  I was sooo happy to come to this board because it felt very REAL to me.
Everything that everybody writes here is of significance and has been indispensable to my recovery.  I'm always mindful that I have survived the Ns in my life, I don't see myself as a victim.  In fact, i swam around the victim pond too long, until I became a volunteer actually.  I'm now proud to have survived and to be surviving these poor sick people.  As my wife says, they are very unhappy N people, just stuck there looking at themselves, perpetually in orbit around their own planet.
I feel lucky, very lucky not to have become trapped forever in their web.  Good for you for getting out, it's necessary, vital even. And I look forward to communicating with you via this board.
Kind regards,
Nic

[Alan]

Nic, thanks for the good words.  I look forward to the 40s+ string.  It might be that by this stage in life, we have enough experiences and attained enough wisdom to truly express the emotions with understanding.  

I talked to the ex late last night.  The struggle for me was to keep cool, I can get intense and frustrated, causing me to start spinning out.  I will attempt to add more to this later.  I was up till 3am and up by 7am so I am gassed.

In short, I was a jerk to her and I loved it.  I stayed calm, spoke directly and calmly to her.  I listened to her thru the filters of knowing; I know the disorder, I know her techniques, I saw the little girl.  I stood my ground.  My belief is to "confront", either harshly or kindly, depending on whom I'm dealing with, empathy or confrontation.  There is nothing to lose, only to speak my truth.  I loved my wife, would do whatever was needed to learn and make a healthy relationship.

She tried to duck everything.  She followed her usual pattern (this has been confirmed by her brother):  First the impassioned lover, with all the other problems, then when it fails, she cleans up her act, takes charge, gets motivated, and dumps.  I said to her, mentioning the other times she has told me of this (I am fortunate, the more you talk the more I see what's in the shadows).  She might have to sell the house so she's been working to upgrade, with no mention to me.  I said, interesting, you did the same thing last time you went thru this, additction then clean up.  It's too bad we couldn't do this together.  No response at all.

(This is not part of this discussion, but I have to relate.  I asked her how much she spent on the materials for the upgrades, that I am responsible for at least half the cost [always try to take the high road, kids] she said it was no big deal, it's not like getting a contractor.  And she continued on. I asked a 2nd time, again she deflected.  She has contacted a mediation attorney, OK by me, easier and less expensive. I brought it back to the orig. question "how much did you spend". Again she defected the question.  I came back with "We can do this easy or hard.  If needed I will get my own attorney and we can hash it out that way.  It is up to you."  She immediated came back with silence, and in a little girl type of reponse said "OK, I'll get that information".  My interp was that she was told by an adult what to do, in no uncertain terms, and she will obey. What the hell did I get into?)

I pressed every button I could, I wanted to push her in a corner without getting loud and specific, just general concepts.  I can be a jerk but this is survival and sometimes anger is a good thing.  If you're messed up and working on it, I'm you're advocate.  If you're not working on it and you're jiving me, I will do whatever I have to.  I discovered years ago I am a truth seeker and an Emotional Warrior.  She tried to take that away. I got it back. (Just for the record, I've been in and out of therapy for the last 11 years, some visits just to check in or get some info, such as blended family questions.  And I dated a psychologist for 2 years.  We had great conversations and I learned alot.)

After reading the Hotchkiss book, I am more aware of "projection", her putting her s..t on me.  At the end of the conversation, after I said she missing out on the best relationship she will ever have a chance to have (my belief), she said to me "You've been running from it all your life".  That's the projection, she's been running away from herself and the truth since she was a kid.  But every eyeball that reads this knows the projections.  My retort to her was "you are in no position to tell me".  Then she said "Well, this conversation is over". I said "You got that right" and it ended.  I have to see her on Monday and pick up the rest of my things.

Unfortuately, another web site said basically this problem causes Ns to say the dumbest, stupidest things.  My ex has a history of it.

I did not ask what "it" is, I probably wouldn't get an answer anyway.  But, my hand to the universe, I have learned what "it" should be and have been searching for it for the last 10 years.  I am adaptable but there are generally accepted ground rules for relationships. For me it was Bradshaw, Hendrick, Dr Phil, Barbara DeAngelis, Marianne Williamson, my therapist, and a few others.  If you don't know something, go find the info.  My ex doesn't believe in this procedure.  Dumb. And dangerous.

I have more but I am fading out from a lack of sleep.  And I have my daughter this weekend.  Also, the Cubs are on in a few minutes.

I am proud of myself for standing up to her. I had this board in mind when I was talking.  I'll be glad to be a spear carrier for everyone, needed or not.  I might not have been cool with the button pressing, but, don't debate me.  If I can keep digging then so be it.  I just don't care with her anymore.  More later.  Thanks