About Gaslighting.....????????

[Lupita]

We now know, thanks to several wonderful posts, what is it, how to spot it, etc.

My question is:

If anybody can help about it, once you spot it and you are stuck in a job, and you need your job, at least temporarily, etc. how do you deal with it?

Healthy boundaries? How do you build healthy boundaires?

What are hea;thy boundaries?

If anybody has ideas, I would appreciate.

I am in this stage that I know my mother does it. AND i have a couple of coworkers who do it. But I know that I need my job. I have changed jobs too much, now I need to stay, create signority, survive, retire someday, etc.

How do I protect my self? How do I help my self?

I guess, this goes for everybody.

Not more cases, we know if we are here we probably were victims of it. But what to do now?

How to keep my job? it is good job, but I have two very bad coworkers. How to deal with them? etc.

[lighter]

I think Hops and some others have very good advice about building boundaries.

I'd research it like crazy on the internet and buy a few good books on it, myself.

What a wonderful end of summer project for you, Lupita.

Figuring that out will really help, I think.

[Ami]

i think everything in life depends on our sense of self. I really do not want to yo-yo with people's viewpoints on me,any more. That is my goal.
 I think the way to combat gaslighting is to really know your value separate from the surroundings.
  My Aunt told me a few good things. One was that I am as good as anyone else. The other was "You know who you are."
  I don't. That is the problem and the solution .    Ami

[Hopalong]

Hi Lupita,

There are quite a few excellent resources about boundaries under What Helps?, including one you listed:

http://www.voicelessness.com/disc3//index.php?topic=5254.0

love
Hops

[Lupita]

How did you find it? How can I find my old posts without having to read them all?

I remember two years ago I wrote a post about sometyhing that was very long and everybody said it was good. I would like to see it again but I do not remember how I called it.

Also, I will read my own post that you borught up to light again. But still, I do not know how to survive the upsetness of gaslightning.

Detachment. That is the clue. I thought I was detached but I went home and I realized that I became a kid again and I was not detahced as I thought. So, I am not cured.

Diabetes has no cure. You can control it but not cure it. I guess thiss is the same.

[Hopalong]

Hi Lupita,

I just opened What Helps? and scanned the titles of the threads for a page or two.

love,
Hops

[rosencrantz]

The link was very helpful, Lupita and Hops.

I've today had another difficulty with someone I work with.  I can see no options as I have talked through this issues so many times.  If it was a personal relationship, it would have been dead in the water years ago.  He agrees he has some passive-aggressive issues.  But the pattern of his behaviour continues.  Oh HOW I try not to get hooked in. And then one final thing sends me over the edge.  Actually, it's ridiculously funny if you look at it from the outside.  HE is ridiculous.

But I am ridiculous for trusting his word, trusting his promises, for being 'helpless'.  This has been going on for 8 years.

If I challenge him, he pretends 'innocence' and accuses me of being 'sarcy'.  (He can't even spell!)  But it's merely another 'hook'. I see the hooks.  That's a big step forward.

I have spent years 'reasonably' talking this through.  It's ridiculous that he continues to act out this months-long 'engagement'.

He is busy, he is disorganised, he is forgetful.  I try to find excuses for him.

But as the link suggests : If we're to have a working relationship, I need honesty, respect and professionalism

He makes the relationship 'personal' and emotional by not being professional.

I've felt so ashamed about my emotions.  But he's the one making it personal.  I've treated him with consideration and respect and asked for professionalism in return.  And I don't get it. 

If I leave, I forfeit everything I've built up over 8 years.  I truthfully can't afford to do that.  But I have declared that the income isn't worth the misery.

Maybe not, but I'm not prepared for his lack of professionalism to leave me victimised, whether I stay or whether I go.

I have to be bigger, much much bigger so as to look down on him from a great height.  I can do that.  It's about time I owned my own intellectual capacity, maturity, age, worldly experience, success and talent. (Don't hate me!)

He isn't unkind. He just can't deal with anything that isn't in front of his nose. I should take pity on him.

Except I am 'in need' just now - I am exhausted, too tired, too worn out by life and circumstances and ill health.  And I am desperately hurt that during my time of need, he has not 'come up to the plate'.  Quite the opposite.

So my promise to myself must be 'self-care' until I am strong again.  And this time, nobody will ever be allowed to push me down the slippery slope into mental breakdown again.

He has hit out like a child.  He's thrown me a ball and wants me to throw it back.  I'm going to choose a different ball.

[Lupita]

Thank you Hops. I reviewed the ARTICLE AND i RE-discovered new things. As if I never read it before!

Rosenk, that sounds just like the examples that Joyfuldiscerner presents in her posts of gaslighting. Incredible! 

I hope that you find the way to overcome it.

To me, I read the articles and I give good adivise to others, but when it comes to my own life, I do not understand hoe to apply it.

I am still thinking how to deal with those two gaslaghters at work. They constantly heat the ears of my boss against me. God help me next year.

It upsets me because it is a behavior very like my mother. Everey thing that is similar to my mother makes me very upset.

[rosencrantz]

This is the quote that did it for me...

Liz could say to herself, "Wow, this new boss is a piece of work. Well; maybe that smarmy charm has fooled everyone else in this company - but not me!" All of them could decide that, on some basic level, they are willing to live with their gaslighters' disapproval. They know they are good, capable, lovable people, and that's all that matters.

If our three gaslightees were able to take this attitude, there would be no gaslighting. Maybe their gaslighters would still behave badly, but their behavior would no longer have such a pernicious effect. Gaslighting works only when you believe what the gaslighter says and need him to think well of you.

The gaslighter may genuinely...sincerely... Remember: He's being driven by his own needs. Your gaslighter might seem like a strong, powerful man, or he may appear to be an insecure, tantrum-throwing little boy; either way, he feels weak and powerless. To feel powerful and safe, he has to prove that he is right, and he has to get you to agree with him.

Here's my 'take' : Gaslighting works only when you [think you have to] believe what the gaslighter says and think everyone else will, too.

There's an issue of separation here.  If I am separate and independent from my colleague then I don't need his approval or co-operation.  I will find other ways of ensuring I get the information I need.  I will also stop trying to repair the damage he has caused - because he just keeps making new holes in the fabric of my business.  I shall start again with a closed shop.  I won't try to work *with* him and alongside him.  

There's also an issue of realism.  So I won't think or believe that he has the same values as I do.  I know he doesn't. He believes in keeping people separate; I believe in bringing people together.  He believes in ignoring the top layers; I believe in top-down.  What's needed is both, working in harmony.  That will clearly never happen.  He must go his way and I will make MY way EFFECTIVE instead of being a weed and waiting for his approval.  He is working from a position of unrecognised fear.  I don't need to work from a position of fear.

I gave him lots of information which enabled him to create good relationships with my peeps - he will not reciprocate.  I don't know what to do about that. Yet.  My issue is about people thinking he's wonderful - when he isn't!  I'll just have to suck it up.

I end up allowing (some of) my peeps to think I'm wonderful because I've ended up feeling so needy.   It's not an effective way of working because there's a layer of people who probably feel unappreciated and elbowed out.  I'll have to work on that but I'm not sure I currently have the resilience and physical energy to do what's needed for them.  The best I can do is not resent/fear *them* for resenting *me*!!  I ALSO won't allow them to label me in ways which are not appropriate or true.  I/They know I/they are good, capable, lovable people, and that's all that matters.

So, forget about the past (deal with the pain), allow him to do what he does best, have no expectations and particularly do not expect him to come good on any promises.  NEVER let my peeps suffer at my hands (eg by opting out) because I am angry with *him*.  What he does ultimately benefits me.  Even if it doesn't benefit *me* personally (if that makes sense).

And I will ignore his 'bad behaviour'.  Ooh - that's a toughie.  

"We lay folk should strive to use the term "passive-aggressive" more precisely in everyday life. Say for instance that a coworker cheerfully agrees to refrain from a specified uncool act, then does it anyway. Is this passive-aggressive behavior? No, this is being an asshole. Comforting as it can be to pigeonhole our tormentors with off-the-shelf psychiatric diagnoses, sometimes it's best just to call a jerk a jerk." http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2453/what-is-passive-aggressive

Can I tell him he's a jerk?  Possibly not.  But I can shout it in my head and remember everyone here would say so, too!!!!!!   I imagine us all holding hands and dancing round in a circle, shouting 'he's a jerk, he's a jerk - ho ho and he doesn't even know it'.  And then we'll dance again and do it for everyone else in the circle, too!!

Everybody BREATHE!   Hhhhhhhhhhaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!  

PS Yes, all this bad behaviour is like my mother's, too.  

[Lupita]

Maybe their gaslighters would still behave badly, but their behavior would no longer have such a pernicious effect. Gaslighting works only when you believe what the gaslighter says and need him to think well of you.

Yes, Ros, I agree. How do I get to the point to not affect me?

I thoguht I was detached, finally. I spent three weeks with my mother and all teh detachment went to the drain. I was a kid spinning my head like crazy.

Same at work.

I think the solution is to develop mechanisms to cope.

how to do it?

[rosencrantz]

Isn't it about keeping our thoughts in check?  Having some thoughts to keep us on the straight and narrow.

Mind you, I'd never stay with my mother for three weeks!  That's just asking to be worn down!!  The protective mechanism in that instance is just not to be there!!  We can't help but revert to the feelings of childhood.  The pressure is too great.

At work it's different.  We have much more hope for our adult self to relate 'adult to adult' with others, however much they might try to relate from some other position.

Have you ever read up about Transactional Analysis? 

My thoughts will be 'IF Gaslighting works only if I [think I have to] believe what the gaslighter says and think everyone else will, too, THEN I simply won't believe what the Gaslighter wants me (and everyone else) to believe.  I'll believe what serves ME well in this situation.  So I will believe that the Gaslighter is 'a piece of work' and I will continue to do my work professionally in the way I know is right and I won't believe that everyone else is being influenced by him.  I will therefore be acting differently to the way he wants me to.  And then nobody will be able to believe his sh**. It may take some while but I'm not going to be 'less than' I can be, just so he can be 'right'.  I don't have to fight it.  I just ignore it.  And I will never, never, never allow myself to get hooked in so he can splat me with some patronising condescending rubbish. Talk to the hand cos the heart ain't listening.'

And I'll do it, too!!

[Ami]

Dear Rose
 That was great. It seems to come  down to what Psychology calls inner locus of control or outer locus of control. The former is a sense of being driven by the   inner self. The latter is letting the outside define who we are.
 I have had more of an inner locus of control at other points in my life.
 Now, my goal is to get it back.      Ami

[rosencrantz]

Being able to do it with a work colleague is one thing.  He's not a bad person and he's not 'out to get me'.

The care home is another thing altogether!  The fear they have instilled in me is still overwhelming.  They'll stop at nothing to undermine my sense of reality.  I feel. Well, that's actually true of the care home manager.  I just feel humiliated and foolish in respect of everyone else involved.  Going anywhere near the care home would be like putting my hand in the fire.  I feel robbed of energy at the thought of going anywhere near it.

And it's not actually true of the care home manager that she'll stop at nothing to undermine my sense of reality.  It's what I experience, not what she does.

What IS she trying to do???

I'm far more intelligent than she is.  I should be able to beat her hands down.  In fact, I can.   Intellectually.  But she...does evil things back.

She is mistaken in her beliefs.  She treats me with contempt.  She refuses to treat me professionally.  She blanks me out.  I speak and she is a brick wall.  If I challenge her to answer a question truthfully and straightforwardly, she attacks.  I am sent into a spin, dizzy, lose track.  She leads me into an argument and I find myself taking a side I have no interest in.  It's another smokescreen.  She is...defending herself, her position, her staff.  It pains me and humiliates me to be treated with contempt.  She does that because she truly believes I am mistaken (I think) - but she doesn't say she believes I am mistaken.  She ignores what I put in writing.  She is ANGRY that I have been asked to write up a care plan by the MHA.  She is perhaps angry that he (half) believes me as that would mean she and her staff are mistaken.

She has to fight me because I have already proven that they are wrong.  This is not acceptable to them.  I think it is possible that I (inadvertently) humiliated her in front of someone else through a letter I wrote which was read alongside a mental health worker.  I don't know what the MHW said or how she reacted.  I am too frightened to find out.  I can't cope with someone else having a go at me, bullying me, messing with my mind.

Well, that's it, isn't it.  The care home manager is messing iwth my mind.  It seems silly to say so.  But she IS messing with my mind.  She's all over the place, on the run.  But she's not messing with my mind, she's on the run.  Hiding behind obfuscation.  She's hiding, not messing.  Just like my mother.  Just like my husband.  They have learnt to deal with their fear and confusion by creating smokescreens.  Just like my colleague.

But *I* experience it as 'messing with my mind'.

Great analysis but I'm no further forward.

They are wrong but so am I.

I can't blame them cos my mind/emotions cannot cope with their coping mechanisms.  I think the book on gaslighting which is quoted here on the forum misses this fact.

[rosencrantz]

So how did I fix it with my husband and mother?

I made my AS husband read a book about passive-aggressive behaviour.  He recognised that such behaviour wasn't right.  He agreed on therapy.  My intention was that he would gain experience of therapy before we tried marriage guidance so I wouldn't have the 'upper hand' with all the experience I have of therapy.  But we decided to part company instead as I just couldn't tolerate the difficulties and confusion any more

With my AS mother, I said to myself OK I 'get' it. You have autism and you come from a place of fear so the next time you sting me (you scorpion to my frog) I will embrace you and say 'You're feeling frightened aren't you'. And it worked.  Like a charm.  No more rages and arguments and fights.  Instant.  She said 'you've changed'.  I said 'It's because I understand'.  End of story.

With my AS son, I got him lots of treatments of all kinds to help him get his mind and body in sync.

I'm not about to embrace the care home manager with love!

But what does this tell me?  What keeps nagging at me is that I think it's more than likely the care home manager is also autistic.  Other staff there 'misbehave' - there is a culture of 'passive-aggressive' behaviour.  But not like the care home manager.  Not to that extent.

I fear...because I do not have an experience of people defending me against her.  My husband, the social worker - they allowed her to vent at me.  Did nothing.  They are passive, adaptive people.  The MHA vented at me - influenced no doubt by the care home manager.  Nobody intervened.   I turned him around.  He listened.  But I had to work hard for it. 

My mother tells me she loathes it there with a passion - but nobody who visits her ever gets that impression from her.  I am the only one she confides in.  But everyone else tells me she's manipulating me.   The home can't be THAT desperate to keep her - surely?!  They have a waiting list.  Ah, they will be happy to throw her out because of me.  But not to work with us to find more appropriate support nor to help with the transition.  Only war.  Not peace.

I'm still no further forward.

[HeartofPilgrimage]

Lupita, In my opinion with co-workers it is very important that you document your work privately, so that if the "gaslighters" try to claim credit for your achievements or blame you for their mistakes, you have it written down who did what. I would not get into arguments with them because it makes you look childish (I did that --- no, I did!). I don't know exactly what your co-workers are doing, but any time you are dealing with sneaky and manipulative people document, document, document. And in the margins of your notes, also document when and if they claim credit for what you did, or blame you unfairly, so that if it ever results in you getting a poor review by your boss, you can talk to your boss privately.

I don't know if you are able to sense who to trust, so this next suggestion entirely depends on whether or not you have confidence in your ability to pick trustworthy people. But it does help if you have an ally, someone with whom you can exchange a "look" when somebody is gaslighting ... do you know what I mean? Let me give you an example --- stupid but aren't most gaslighting situations? Once I was in the kitchen with both my parents, and I mentioned that I like conventionally-baked potatoes better than microwaved potatoes. My mother said, "No you do not, there is no difference between the two." I said, "I didn't say YOU could tell the difference, I said I can tell the difference, and I like oven-baked better." She repeated, "No you do not, there is no difference." At this point I looked at my dad, and we exchanged a "look" and both shrugged our shoulders. What could we say? But we both acknowledged that what she said was bizarre. She could not tell me whether or not I could tell the difference between microwaved and oven-baked! But she could not see that what she said was nonsense. I think this private understanding between my dad and I kept me sane throughout my growing-up years (and maybe it kept him sane too), and I also think it helped me pick a super husband. Now my husband acts as my ally, and if I ever feel crazy after a visit with my mom, he is there to help me sort it out. He has actually been there during some of her most egregious gaslighting episodes, and he helped me keep from blaming myself because he assured me I had not done anything wrong. Believe me, my husband will tell me if he thinks I'm wrong! So, I trust his judgment even when my mom makes me feel crazy.

But with co workers --- just don't forget that you don't have to like them and they don't have to like you, you just have to work peacably together. I know it hurts our feelings when people don't seem to like us, and if you have grown up blaming yourself for everything, it is easy to think it's our fault because they don't like us. But some people don't like anybody! Or, they only like people they can manipulate. If your coworkers are like that, then if they dislike you, you must be doing something right!

I know all this is easier said than done. I have been learning to stand my ground with my mom, and it can be super-painful. However, I sense that she is beginning to be somewhat in awe of me --- I don't want to say afraid of me because I haven't done anything mean to her. I think that is the way my dad kept her in line all these years --- if she got too ridiculous he'd call her on it. Now that he's gone, she turned into the worst version of herself possible --- but she's retreated since I've started standing my ground. I'm sure that there are confrontations to come, but I have a lot more confidence in my own version of reality now, so I think I can make it through.

Hopefully this helps!