Author Topic: Lessons from Little Voices  (Read 1560 times)

sunblue

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Lessons from Little Voices
« on: August 23, 2009, 05:30:24 PM »

I was re-reading Dr. Grossman's essay on Little Voices this weekend and it encapsulated my persona and that of my siblings perfectly.  Dr. G. notes that narcissism can result in two kinds of children----the first is a "gentle, generous and sensitive child whose self-esteem is dependent on responding to other needs.  Early in their childhood they stopped wanting because no one paid any attention to their wishes."  That is me.  The other kind of child is the one who is "angry and bitter and becomes a narcissist themselves.  The theme of their anger is often:  look  what I've done for you, and look what I get back.  And yet they are trapped, because if they stop anticipating everyone's needs they feel invisible.   Sometimes, these "little voices" live with (or close to) their demanding and unappreciative parents until the parents die; they deeply resent siblings who managed to escape."  That is my deeply narcissisistic sister.  I have another sibling but he does not easily fit in either category.  He is narcissistic but he does possess selfish traits much more so than the average person.  He will not compromise for anyone.  I think perhaps the difference is that growing up, he was treated as my N sister's personal prize and he was also lucky to have had other people in his life who valued him (friends, co-workers, wife, child, etc.)  I did not.

Being in the first category, I now found that there are certain buttons that people push that triggers these feelings.  My brother and his family who ignore my wishes, who refuse to compromise or spend time with me...are triggers and reminders that my feelings, needs, wants don't matter to anyone.  I don't matter.  I keep getting reminded of that by all whom I meet.  Rejection, betrayal, and neglect have been themes throughout my life.

I now see that this situation is pervasive throughout every element of life....I work for a narcissist, and throughout my career, I have gone above and beyond...Even though I'm hired for one job, I find myself end up doing three jobs because they know am capable of doing it...They take advantage and I become hopelessly stuck.  I am currently looking for a new job so I can get out of this situation.

I still don't know how you change from being this kind of person.  I also still struggle with accepting that my N mom and Co-D dad consistently choose my evil Nsister over everyone and everything else.....that they are perfectly fine with this situation and that they don't care about either of their other children.  In my head, I realize this will never change.  I know that on my Nmom's deathbed, she will never regret what she did...with not spending time with her other children or knowing them.  She would do it all again....exactly the same.  She will continue to believe that we deserved what we got.

I just so wish there had been just one person in my life who could have convinced me that I was worth something....that I was not the loser I have always felt I was...that it wasn't me....but them.  I wish there was a person now that could show me that there is something beyond the heartache and pain I live with every day....that in effect, there is hope.  Instead, I continue to feel set apart from everyone...like the person who looks at the world from outside the window......I wonder if all children of Ns feel that way....I wonder, too, if you ever get to take a look from the other side of the window.....or if you ever get over the rejection, betrayal, neglect....

I suppose in the end you never get over it, you just force yourself to push it to the back of your heart and mind....

Ami

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Re: Lessons from Little Voices
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2009, 07:19:48 PM »

I was re-reading Dr. Grossman's essay on Little Voices this weekend and it encapsulated my persona and that of my siblings perfectly.  Dr. G. notes that narcissism can result in two kinds of children----the first is a "gentle, generous and sensitive child whose self-esteem is dependent on responding to other needs.  Early in their childhood they stopped wanting because no one paid any attention to their wishes."  That is me.  The other kind of child is the one who is "angry and bitter and becomes a narcissist themselves.  The theme of their anger is often:  look  what I've done for you, and look what I get back.  And yet they are trapped, because if they stop anticipating everyone's needs they feel invisible.   Sometimes, these "little voices" live with (or close to) their demanding and unappreciative parents until the parents die; they deeply resent siblings who managed to escape."  That is my deeply narcissisistic sister.  I have another sibling but he does not easily fit in either category.  He is narcissistic but he does possess selfish traits much more so than the average person.  He will not compromise for anyone.  I think perhaps the difference is that growing up, he was treated as my N sister's personal prize and he was also lucky to have had other people in his life who valued him (friends, co-workers, wife, child, etc.)  I did not.

Being in the first category, I now found that there are certain buttons that people push that triggers these feelings.  My brother and his family who ignore my wishes, who refuse to compromise or spend time with me...are triggers and reminders that my feelings, needs, wants don't matter to anyone.  I don't matter.  I keep getting reminded of that by all whom I meet.  Rejection, betrayal, and neglect have been themes throughout my life.

I now see that this situation is pervasive throughout every element of life....I work for a narcissist, and throughout my career, I have gone above and beyond...Even though I'm hired for one job, I find myself end up doing three jobs because they know am capable of doing it...They take advantage and I become hopelessly stuck.  I am currently looking for a new job so I can get out of this situation.

I still don't know how you change from being this kind of person.  I also still struggle with accepting that my N mom and Co-D dad consistently choose my evil Nsister over everyone and everything else.....that they are perfectly fine with this situation and that they don't care about either of their other children.  In my head, I realize this will never change.  I know that on my Nmom's deathbed, she will never regret what she did...with not spending time with her other children or knowing them.  She would do it all again....exactly the same.  She will continue to believe that we deserved what we got.

I just so wish there had been just one person in my life who could have convinced me that I was worth something....that I was not the loser I have always felt I was...that it wasn't me....but them.  I wish there was a person now that could show me that there is something beyond the heartache and pain I live with every day....that in effect, there is hope.  Instead, I continue to feel set apart from everyone...like the person who looks at the world from outside the window......I wonder if all children of Ns feel that way....I wonder, too, if you ever get to take a look from the other side of the window.....or if you ever get over the rejection, betrayal, neglect....

I suppose in the end you never get over it, you just force yourself to push it to the back of your heart and mind....



I hear your cry, ((((Sun))))).
 I got in a terrible hole, as you sound like you are in.
 I think God is the only one who can bring us a flesh and blood person to love us. That happened to me and now I feel like I do have hope.      xxxooo  Ami

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

Sela

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Re: Lessons from Little Voices
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2009, 08:26:16 PM »
Hi there Sunblue,

Bottom line:  you have to be honourable, loyal, trusting and especially loving to....yourself.  You have to lose the "loser" title and replace it with the kind of person you want to be and then.....work toward becoming that person (looking for a new job, by the way, seems to me to be that exact type of step towards shedding that old cloak).  You have to reject their rejection, betrayal and neglect and accept you, take care of you, appreciate yourself, your good qualities, skills and talents.  There is hope, I think.  All my opinion, ofcourse.

I do soooo relate to what you have written.  It's just that I really, really believe attitude is a choice and it effects so much.  I refuse to be like "them"......losers like "them".....it's their personna not mine.  See what I mean?  The little child you were was never like that and the adult you are now is not like that either.  You've just been trained to believe that's what and all you are but it's a big large huge lie!!

You're not a loser at all.  You have the power to make your own wishes come true and you have to believe you are not only gentle, generous and sensitive but worthy of happiness and love.  You are indeed just as worthy of those as any person is but you have to convince yourself.   Once you believe that, choose to move towards it and get to that place, you will be in a better position to attract a similar mate and then wait and see what life will be!  It can happen!

Hope this helps even a little.

Sela

ann3

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Re: Lessons from Little Voices
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2009, 09:23:28 PM »
Sun,

I completely understand what you're saying.  (((((((((((sun))))))))))).

"I just so wish there had been just one person in my life who could have convinced me that I was worth something"

That "one person" has to be you.  We have to learn to love, accept & re-parent ourselves.  I agree with much of what Sela has said & there's so much info out there on the internet, books, groups to help us do so.  I try to understand the past & mourn it, but live in the present.  Everyday, we have the potential & opportunity to re-make ourselves & live the life we want to live.

Lollie

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Re: Lessons from Little Voices
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2009, 12:15:18 AM »
Hi, Sunblue. I've been thinking about your post a lot today, probably because it sounds a lot like where I was and how I felt about 15 years ago. Ami put it so well: It feels like a terrible hole. But there is hope. You can get unstuck.

I still don't know how you change from being this kind of person.

FWIW, here are some things that I found helpful. (As always, take what you want & discard what doesn't work for you.)

I had to first realize that the situation was intolerable and that I indeed wanted to change.  That sounds stupidly simple, but it's crucial. Beacuse I was the only one who could affect any kind of change in my situation. I was miserable and depressed and anxious. I felt like a loser and didn't want to feel that way anymore. No one in my FOO was going to wake up or change or apologize. And no one else was going to make my life better but me.

I knew I had to detach myself from my family, stop being so enmeshed in the whole effed up dance. I chose to get help for this because sometimes it was difficult to see my own role in the dysfunction. I went to a few CoDA meetings. I found a therapist. I worked (for years) on emotionally detaching myself from my family. That helped a lot to lift the depression I had been living with since I was 13 years old.

I wish that right now you could feel how freeing that is. I had been carrying my FOO and depression on my back for years, and now I had the energy to focus on me and my life. My career. My DH. What I wanted, what I liked, what I wanted to do.

I wish there was a person now that could show me that there is something beyond the heartache and pain I live with every day....that in effect, there is hope. 

<raising hand: oh me, pick me!>
Sunblue, there is hope.

Instead, I continue to feel set apart from everyone...like the person who looks at the world from outside the window......I wonder if all children of Ns feel that way....I wonder, too, if you ever get to take a look from the other side of the window.....or if you ever get over the rejection, betrayal, neglect....

I still feel that way sometimes, I'm not going to lie about that and tell you everything turned out 100% hunky-dory. I still feel different than other people. I'm still dealing with aspects of trauma and abuse. Still trying to break old patterns. The difference is I feel as if I am moving foward, even when the moving foward makes me anxious or afraid or is painful. Sometimes I slip back and then have to forgive myself for slipping and start again.

I suppose in the end you never get over it, you just force yourself to push it to the back of your heart and mind....

Pushing it to the back of your heart and your mind will keep you in the same place and only make the depression and misery stronger. This I know from bitter experience. Sometimes I wish there was some sort of surgery that could remove it from me. Sometimes I wish, just for one day, that I could take my brain off (like a wig) and hang it up somewhere. The only thing I have found that makes it better is talking about it with others who understand you, others you can trust.

I hope some of this helps.
"Enjoy every sandwich." -- Warren Zevon

Ami

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Re: Lessons from Little Voices
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2009, 07:48:05 AM »
Dear Sun
  In my experience I could not come out of it alone.You  get in to a guiilt cycle where you try to come out of it by better  thinking and then feel worse(more of a failure) cuz it doesb't work. Then, you get totally hopeless, believing you have exhausted all possibilities.
 I don't want to be a broken record(forgive me if I am) but Alice Miller says you can't do it alone. You need s/one to mirror you,to see you. You were not seen. You see yourself AS the N saw you.
 That is the problem .
  Your self image is screwy but it is "normal' and real to you.
 Alice says she could not  heal before she found an Enlightened Witness(  she is a therapist) s/one to walk next to you in your healing and to understand, to help you bear the pain
  I think there IS hope .
  I am not special or different and I am getting better!        xxooo   Ami
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

bearwithme

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Re: Lessons from Little Voices
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2009, 04:37:40 PM »
Hello Sun,

I am also the first child scenario, same as you.  I wonder all the same things as you.  It is a long and hard road to find out that you are not the loser, but it is the N that is the loser.  I'm still working on it and I'm 42 years old.  I also have thoughts of feeling sorry for myself.  My T told me that was okay, because the people that were supposed to pick me up when I was down or comfort me had in fact put me down and defeated me instead.  No one really saw my feelings or understood their mere existence so I never got comfort for feeling "sad".  Kids often display "sadness" and it is part of development.  For you and I Sunblue, when we were sad as children for any given reason whether it was that the sandwich tasted bad or we were sad that we felt neglected, etc., we were bombarded with anything but a remedy for our feeling blue or just plain old "wanting attention."  There was no love there.  No empathy.  The feeling sorry for myself came after realizing this in therapy:

Given I was the gentle, sensitive, generous child whose self-esteem was dependent on everyone else's needs and that I was very emotional and wore my heart on my sleeve, why wouldn't that trigger some sort of compassion or "feeling sorry" for this little child by my Nmohter?????? Any normal person would say, "Geez, I think I over did it, my daughter is hysterical and doing bad in school" or "my daughter is so sensitive and loving, I don't want to hurt her anymore."  My Nmother KNEW I was sensitive and passive.  She KNEW I was emotional and depressed.  She KNEW I was weaker than my older brother.  Nmother even told me that she saw me as weak and fragile. But instead, my own mother used my weakness as the gaping wound that bled on a daily basis, to stick her finger in it, move it around, and smile or laugh until I went into full submission...until I had no voice, no body and no soul.  I was living for her and for her only.  HOW COULD A PARENT DO THIS TO A CHILD?? 

How sad for me.  How sad for me that I got a rotten mother.  How sad for you Sunblue.  How sad that you got jipped of what was rightfully yours.  I'm sorry for you.  I really am.

My T said that I should go on and "feel sorry" for myself for as long as I need to.  I need to heal that little girl who was so sad and got no love and no hugs when N mom raged and denigrated her.  My T said to do this because no matter what, all the logic, reasoning, definitions and understanding about how N's function and why they did/do what they did/do, will not fill that void left by the neglect and abuse--all the tender, merciful, compassionate, graceful, sympathetic embraces I so very needed and deserved.

That's why I feel sorry for me.  That's why I feel sorry for you.  I'm sorry Sunblue.

Ami

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Re: Lessons from Little Voices
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2009, 04:42:49 PM »
Hello Sun,

I am also the first child scenario, same as you.  I wonder all the same things as you.  It is a long and hard road to find out that you are not the loser, but it is the N that is the loser.  I'm still working on it and I'm 42 years old.  I also have thoughts of feeling sorry for myself.  My T told me that was okay, because the people that were supposed to pick me up when I was down or comfort me had in fact put me down and defeated me instead.  No one really saw my feelings or understood their mere existence so I never got comfort for feeling "sad".  Kids often display "sadness" and it is part of development.  For you and I Sunblue, when we were sad as children for any given reason whether it was that the sandwich tasted bad or we were sad that we felt neglected, etc., we were bombarded with anything but a remedy for our feeling blue or just plain old "wanting attention."  There was no love there.  No empathy.  The feeling sorry for myself came after realizing this in therapy:

Given I was the gentle, sensitive, generous child whose self-esteem was dependent on everyone else's needs and that I was very emotional and wore my heart on my sleeve, why wouldn't that trigger some sort of compassion or "feeling sorry" for this little child by my Nmohter?????? Any normal person would say, "Geez, I think I over did it, my daughter is hysterical and doing bad in school" or "my daughter is so sensitive and loving, I don't want to hurt her anymore."  My Nmother KNEW I was sensitive and passive.  She KNEW I was emotional and depressed.  She KNEW I was weaker than my older brother.  Nmother even told me that she saw me as weak and fragile. But instead, my own mother used my weakness as the gaping wound that bled on a daily basis, to stick her finger in it, move it around, and smile or laugh until I went into full submission...until I had no voice, no body and no soul.  I was living for her and for her only.  HOW COULD A PARENT DO THIS TO A CHILD?? 

How sad for me.  How sad for me that I got a rotten mother.  How sad for you Sunblue.  How sad that you got jipped of what was rightfully yours.  I'm sorry for you.  I really am.

My T said that I should go on and "feel sorry" for myself for as long as I need to.  I need to heal that little girl who was so sad and got no love and no hugs when N mom raged and denigrated her.  My T said to do this because no matter what, all the logic, reasoning, definitions and understanding about how N's function and why they did/do what they did/do, will not fill that void left by the neglect and abuse--all the tender, merciful, compassionate, graceful, sympathetic embraces I so very needed and deserved.

That's why I feel sorry for me.  That's why I feel sorry for you.  I'm sorry Sunblue.


You are so beautiful ,Bear!  My M was so much like yours.
 I think you CAN find a person to belong to. I think it exists in this world with God's hand in it.              xxxooo   Ami
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

Hopalong

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Re: Lessons from Little Voices
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2009, 12:44:29 PM »
Thanks for this post, ((((((Sun))))), it is really good to hear your thinking.
You sound like someone who's moving earth, building a space for a new foundation.
I am really impressed. I think Sunblue is changing shades!

Quote
narcissism can result in two kinds of children----the first is a "gentle, generous and sensitive child whose self-esteem is dependent on responding to other needs.  Early in their childhood they stopped wanting because no one paid any attention to their wishes."  That is me.  The other kind of child is the one who is "angry and bitter and becomes a narcissist themselves.  The theme of their anger is often:  look  what I've done for you, and look what I get back.  And yet they are trapped, because if they stop anticipating everyone's needs they feel invisible.

I find that the "two kinds" thinking doesn't work for me, perhaps too black or white. I am in fact, both of these children. For decades I was the first. After a decade of living with/caring for NMom, I got angry (raged at her once) and for some time felt bitter, and feared I had become the second.

Now, I am integrating these two into the rest of Hops, a work in progress.

And now that she is gone from my life, and Nbrother should be within a year, I sense, without knowing what shape it will take, that I will actually find myself to be a different "self". My Nscars and Nspots may always be there, but they are muted, they continue to grow quieter. What I want to bloom beside them is health, spiritual and physical.

Not all the way there. But I sense a new type-self forming.

xo
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Hopalong

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Re: Lessons from Little Voices
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2009, 12:56:14 PM »
PS--this makes me think of a stunning hymn, that was my maternal grandmother's favorite.
(I'm not Christian but this song is religious for me, regardless...)

If you can find a recording of it, Roberta Flack does it as a duet with Donny Hathaway:

Come, Ye Disconsolate.

This is what I wish all Little Voices could feel. The mercy seat.

"Here, bring your wounded hearts, here, tell your anguish.
Earth has no sorrow, that heaven cannot heal."

In my mind, "heaven" is simply...complete compassion.

Any Little Voice needing comfort -- "disconsolate" is also a beautiful word that just works so well -- I couldn't recommend more highly listening to this, in a quiet, safe place.

If you do, I'd love to hear what you experience.

love,
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."