Author Topic: Roots of narcissism  (Read 5978 times)

polymath

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 72
Roots of narcissism
« on: August 29, 2009, 04:11:55 PM »
Imagine for a moment not having to compete for the attention and adoration of your parents. Imagine not having to share anything ever. Imagine being able to pull the strings like a puppet of the adults charged with your care. Imagine being able to zone out in front of a TV or video game, flipping to any channel, re-starting the game whenever you wanted, without interference, because as long as your doing that, you are not putting any demands other than food, shelter and clothing on the adults.

This folks, is the root of narcissism, of extreme self-focus. When a child is accidentally brought into a word not prepared for his arrival (mostly boys because mothers and daughters share the natural bond of not producing brain altering testosterone). Usually 'not prepared' means a mother and a father who had not discussed raising a family and went through a normal courtship period, but were just in it for the sex and temporary rush of a new relationship. The FOO is then forced to make unnatural decisions, like putting the child at grandparents much of the time. Grandparents are supposed to be a rare treat, like to give the parents an occasional break, not regular parenting.

I'm at fault for the same thing my parents did to me. I got my wife pregnant while running the bars looking for sexual partners (she was vulnerable since her father pays her very little attention and just came out of a failed marriage,)married her out of duty (religious upbringing rearing its head), then continued partying, drinking, having unprotected sex, until lo and behold, there are 4 children running around with a father who is all about himself. A father who's private and public life is completely separate. Who does things when alone he is ashamed of, out of a deep need to bring pleasure to himself before all others. Many of my single, male friends (most of which were oldest sons of marriages with bad fathers and hovering mothers, interesting isn't it) never had children. I should've made that committment. Shame on me.

This my friends is the personal side of N.

HeartofPilgrimage

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 361
Re: Roots of narcissism
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2009, 04:24:30 PM »
Polymath, you're probably tired of hearing from me, but I gotta say it: If you are truly a narcissist, then you, my friend, are also totally an enigma. I have never heard a true narcissist flagellate themselves the way you do. I'm just having a hard time buying that you fit that label. Truly self-absorbed people just go about in their own fog, never aware that they are hurting anybody else.

I don't doubt you've got problems in your relationships, I am not disrespecting the things you report about your life. I just think that you are disgusted with yourself, and I have never heard of a true narcissist getting disgusted with himself. Narcissists, to be frank, are not NEARLY strong enough inside to let any self-criticism arise from within. You are quite obviously strong enough to criticize yourself.

When I read your last post, I hear that you truly love your kids. You might not be the dad that you wish you were, and yes, you may be truly messing up in some ways, but you really love them or you would not give a moment's worry to what your behaviors are doing to them. I hear also in your last post that you really love your wife. So you didn't know her very well when you got married, and you got married 'cause you "had to." You still love her. You have empathy for what she was missing when you and she got involved with one another.

Most of the time I like labels. I think that labels quite often shrink a problem down to size ... changes a problem from this vague, amorphous thing into something that can be dealt with. In this case, though, I'm wondering if this label is keeping you from the hope that things can be different.

polymath

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 72
Re: Roots of narcissism
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2009, 04:32:55 PM »
HOP,

Not tired at all. Today has been a very stressful day for me. I actually had planned last night to make this the day I ended it all but it seems like there is always something else I need to do first (how nuts does that sound). I run around from nothing to nothing avoiding sitting still, just giving sarcastic feedback, trying not to fixate or obsess on any one thing, always stumbling forward.

The problem is with attachement. Everytime we blow up and I move out to my Grandfathers (he hardly is ever there) after about 24 hours of channel surfing I come crawling back because I'm so very lonely. My social skills are that shot.

Anyway, blah blah, there I go again. These online forums are so easy to vomit in, its the real world thats so difficult.

polymath

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 72
Re: Roots of narcissism
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2009, 04:38:32 PM »
and I know what you mean about true N. I know some people that blather on about themselves but it just doesnt seem to bother them. However, my blathering is just a way to bring attention to myself, which is true N, isnt it. Isn't N just a deep obsessive NEED for attention and bending the world and the people in it to your way. Please tell me I'm wrong and there is someway to change the subconscious tapes playing in my head.

I have this friend from school Brian, who is the poster child for correct mindset. He is crude and arrogant to most people, but actually just very, very independent. He does not get in others peoples bubbles unless they are being totally ridiculous, and will harshly kick you out of his if you decide to venture in uninvited. He makes a ton of money, has a ton of fun and just doesn't care what the world thinks. His parents are good people. His dad is very easy going and independent, water of a ducks back type.

Anyway, thanks again HOP, your words were accepted.

HeartofPilgrimage

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 361
Re: Roots of narcissism
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2009, 05:04:54 PM »
All I can say is ... thank goodness you had stuff to do, no matter how odd that may seem to you after the fact.  And there's one thing for sure ... when you're feeling suicidal, an internet forum just isn't sufficient. You need people face to face. Please go to your hospital emergency room or some other place where live people can help you be safe.

Women get depressed more OFTEN than men, but when men get depressed, you guys REALLY GET DEPRESSED. It is not something to fool around with.

I'll attempt to quit preaching now. Don't know if I will be able to squelch the urge permanently though.

Ami

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7820
Re: Roots of narcissism
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2009, 05:30:43 PM »
Dear Polymath
 This may sound dumb but speaking for myself, I would feel a great loss if you ended it.
  I don't think you are an N. An N by Vaknin's definition(if I have it right) does not have introspection.I can't see an N coming on this Board and ever interacting as you are               Ami
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

polymath

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 72
Re: Roots of narcissism
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2009, 05:52:40 PM »
The thing about men is, we get so depressed because half of us is missing. I think thats what I mean by women having it a little better. A woman has a girl and there you go, she has a real-life 3D model for her behavior. A woman has a boy and if dad (or some other male) isn't around to lead the way, mid-life will slam us to the pavement, when youth, vitality, mental clarity, looks, etc. begin to fade. I have a female cousin my age who always has lived at home with her mom. Her two older brothers moved out, started families and moved on. Their father died when they were young and my aunt did a good job raising them all. My female cousin just stayed put like a hermit, just like her mom, going to work, coming home, sleeping, etc.

That is why the two biggest demographics for suicides are males, 20-24 and males 35-40. The first group is being pushed out into the big bad world and dad wasn't there to set the foundation. Then in the late 30's, those that had enough to get through the first stage can't make it through the second. In my case, my mother married for a couple of years when I was 11. Paul taught me how to fight and stand up to the bullying I was getting. I was lucky enough to be handsome and athletic so I could get the girl. Those got me this far but oh the wall I've hit now.

I don't know how long I have left so I'll say it now. Ladies, be very aware of how mothers around you behave with their boys. You can step in the gap like a man cannot easily do. Show them the statistics, tell the stories, be a witness. Little boys who are sheltered by there mothers because Dad is a deadbeat, and try to do it themselves are causing a ton of the mess. Let your boys act out as boys, do not respond with emotion, hold it in remain calm, set limits and stick to them. Listen to them, do not baby them if there is no man around. Let them try and fail. Let them do themselves, struggling to open that lid. Do not reach for it even when your sure they cant do it. Be tough if there is no man around.

I will be honest here. Men like me objectify women obsessively. We see women as sex objects. We say and do things to get in your pants and that is it. Because we didn't get real two way love from our mothers, we take it out on the women we try to form relationships with as adults. Guys like me can walk into a bar and scan the room in less than a minute, make eye-contact with the ones that are running from bad daughter/father relationships and prey on them successfully most every time. I don't love my wife because I have no idea what that is. I do her bidding so she will give me sex. I compliment and flatter her for the same reason. I hate domestic life, all N males do. Its just that we NEED someone to take care of us. We see our children as extensions. It takes all I can muster not to rage at my oldest boy when he gets mouthy with me. I cannot for the life of me find the middle ground between wallflower and violent abuser. I choose wallflower because I don't want to hurt him.

I think about suicide all the time because if you can imagine, a true N walks through life with his evil twin right in front of his face at all times. We are machine-like in our actions to gain approval. When the veil is lifted after a serious life challenge, we are the emperor with no clothes. Every eye movement, every breath we take is being watched by that evil twin screaming in our ear. It is a living hell and I believe the only hell there really is.

When a man, or woman for that matter decides to take their own life, they are beyond help. That doesnt make one bit of sense to most people but they have turned over every rock, talked to tons of therapists, taken multiple drugs, scanned thousands of websites and nothing makes that critical voice that keeps getting louder and louder stop. Finally the day comes when the restful peace that death brings outweighs the hope that something can make the voice go away. Death brings heaven, hell or nothing. We hope for heaven, we're already in hell, and nothing beats what we have now.


Ami

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7820
Re: Roots of narcissism
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2009, 06:00:50 PM »
Dear RS
 On the last day of Scott's life, he was sitting on the end of my bed. He had come home from school for a dentists appointment, a cleaning. I thought it was strange that he came home on a Thursday and went back to school rather than schedule it near a weekend. He came back to get his F's gun.
 He was sitting on the end of my bed. He felt different. I thought he had come to some new peace but it was the "peace" of killing himself.
 I may understand what you mean by your last paragraph.
 I hope you don't do it, RS.         Ami
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

Izzy_*now*

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1688
  • Beer is living proof that God loves us
Re: Roots of narcissism
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2009, 09:34:07 PM »
Yep, polymath,

You appear to understand it all, so either you are not a true full-fledged Narcissist, i.e. disordered. or you are making  up a life for us to read.

My experience with Ns is that they would never admit any of this to anyone, as they woudn't even see , for themselves, that they are disordered.

Why are you different?

Maybe you are just selfish? egotistical about your looks and athetic build? looking for a playmate on this board? looking for pity as you might kill yourself?

The only thing I have noticed otherwise is that you have no empathy for the other posters on the board! So maybe you are real?

Tell me! I'd like to know!

Would you feel sorry for me f I told you I was beaten by my father and a my commn-law husband and crippled by an N when I said 'No' to sex, or lost my daughter and 3 grandchildren because she married an N who owed me $55,000.00 he could repay?

Or would you blame me? Let's just see if you can talk about someone besides yourself!

Izzy

Edit] To me, suicide is just someone wanting to 'kill' the life they are living, maybe gay, or something else that is, for the most part, unacceptable to their friends and relatives. After that, life is dead and gone with the reality ibeing that the is no more life, but those in denial are thinking they just might not die and begin a new and wonderful life away from judgmental people. JMRO
« Last Edit: August 29, 2009, 09:39:38 PM by Izzy_*now* »
"The joy of love lasts such a short time, but the pain of love lasts one's whole life"

Ami

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7820
Re: Roots of narcissism
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2009, 09:40:46 PM »
Yep, polymath,

You appear to understand it all, so either you are not a true full-fledged Narcissist, i.e. disordered. or you are making  up a life for us to read.

My experience with Ns is that they would never admit any of this to anyone, as they woudn't even see , for themselves, that they are disordered.

Why are you different?

Maybe you are just selfish? egotistical about your looks and athetic build? looking for a playmate on this board? looking for pity as you might kill yourself?

The only thing I have noticed otherwise is that you have no empathy for the other posters on the board! So maybe you are real?

Tell me! I'd like to know!

Would you feel sorry for me f I told you I was beaten by my father and a my commn-law husband and crippled by an N when I said 'No' to sex, or lost my daughter and 3 grandchildren because she married an N who owed me $55,000.00 he could repay?

Or would you blame me? Let's just see if you can talk about someone besides yourself!

Izzy



YUCH  YUCH YUCH   Izzy I don't like that! I think it is very cruel!  I think it stinks that you would act that way!              Ami
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

Izzy_*now*

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1688
  • Beer is living proof that God loves us
Re: Roots of narcissism
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2009, 09:46:54 PM »
Ami
You are on a roll, of disapproval, but I didn't ask you. I asked polymath

Izzy
"The joy of love lasts such a short time, but the pain of love lasts one's whole life"

Ami

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7820
Re: Roots of narcissism
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2009, 09:49:36 PM »
When people are new on this forum sometimes they can't take the fighting that we who have fought many fights can. He is a big boy  but in a lot of pain, too, so I said what I felt, Izzy.                         Ami
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

polymath

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 72
Re: Roots of narcissism
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2009, 10:07:23 PM »
Izzy,

Wow, the emotions I felt welling up when you challenged me instead of rolling with the flow of my attention seeking. That was very interesting.

First, your spot on. Selfish, egotistical, self-centered is correct. The lack of empathy is also the characteristic. I see empathy from others and it might as well be x-ray vision, I just can't get it in me except for show.

Second, I definitely feel sorry for you. No child should have to go through that. Now, in the interest of honesty, being severely N, I wouldn't be able to really and truly empathize because I just never had that ability put into me. I know, for someone who did get it, it seems impossible and horrific to say, but its true.

Finally, try to imagine having an overwhelming sense of invisibility to others, since you were not 'seen' early. It is why under stress, N's touch themselves, to prove to themselves that they exist. An N's only comfortable place is the mirror. Its not vanity, its fear. We forced into a fantasy world early where the only safe place to go with the windows to our soul was the mirror.

In a nutshell, an N is incapable of feeling someone elses pain and who's gaze needs to stay around the face to read a person. We care so much about what you think of us.

Ami, yes honestly I would say Im at the point where your son was. Right now Im just existing, hoping, praying, searching for some conversion or magic bullet. ALL that matters to me right now is my own life. The big question is, like Job, when youve truly lost it all, does a personal God step in and turn it around, or was it going to be just a couple minutes after you checked out?

Izzy_*now*

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1688
  • Beer is living proof that God loves us
Re: Roots of narcissism
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2009, 03:12:58 AM »
When people are new on this forum sometimes they can't take the fighting that we who have fought many fights can. He is a big boy  but in a lot of pain, too, so I said what I felt, Izzy.                         Ami
Duly noted Ami, so stay out of it!
Izzy
"The joy of love lasts such a short time, but the pain of love lasts one's whole life"

Izzy_*now*

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1688
  • Beer is living proof that God loves us
Re: Roots of narcissism
« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2009, 03:44:40 AM »
Hi polymath,

I find that VERY interesting that you felt emotions when being challenged!!!!  Now did these emotions put a thumpity-thump-thump in your belly, as though you had been "found out" or that you would't know how to answer, or that you had revealed too much, or...?

OK!! If you can feel sorry for me, then that is empathy, but to what extent?  Like OMG I wish I could go see her and help that poor 70-yr.old Grandma with no kids and grandkids, and be her son-for- a- day!
OR
when you hear (read) that, are you thinking about IF your own children went through this in later years when you are gone, would you like to prepare them for such incidents?

When you say "touch yourselves" do you mean sexually or just touch a spot to know you can feel and are alive? As far as the mirror is concerned, I saw the N in my life look into the mirror at himself as he spoke to me, and I just guessed he was looking to see how he looked when he was lying!

No one is going to step in and turn your thoughts around but you. No one can get into your head or anyone else's except you in yours and they in theirs! I believe this all boils down to belief! Magical thinking? I could go over to the kitchen right now and slice my wrists, if I thought God would intervene. He wouldn't say a word to me. I just wouldn't do it because of my belief in my own strength and a will to live until I am really ready to die!

If you can find any empathy at all, for your wife and 4 children, and how they would feel if you blasted your brains all over the nice egg-shell white livingroom wall, then you won't do it, but the most SELFISH act would be to go ahead and kill yourself and leave your wife and children to live with that forever--or just your wife, and she has to keep your shame a secret forever from your children.

polymath, you are salvagable and I 'feel' it, because you are talking about it!
Izzy
"The joy of love lasts such a short time, but the pain of love lasts one's whole life"