Author Topic: Roots of narcissism  (Read 5994 times)

lighter

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Re: Roots of narcissism
« Reply #30 on: August 30, 2009, 08:11:45 PM »
Polymath:

I can't imagine someone with NPD feeling such need to change.  Esp for their children, but such is my impression of N's.

I see more of a shame heaped on top of guilt heaped on top of shame heaped on top of depression heaped on top of frustration sequence.

You can see the damage you're doing to your children, and you want to change.

Perhaps you're noting strong N features and attributing them to actual N personality disorder?  

There is a difference.

Mo2
« Last Edit: August 30, 2009, 08:43:10 PM by Motherof2 »

polymath

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Re: Roots of narcissism
« Reply #31 on: August 30, 2009, 08:47:22 PM »
Yeah, that was Tolstoy :)

I guess I tend to harp on labels the medical community attach to things in attempt to communicate better. Most humans mean well and are just trying to make a living and if the system of names and categories works so be it.

I just finished watching The Last Days of Frank & Jesse James with Kristofferson and Johnny Cash (bad acting but great story) and the brother thing really hit me throughout the movie. This probably sounds like typical 'tear in my beer' BS but I feel like if I would've had just one person to develop a personality with, things would be at least manageable. Even a sibling I got along terribly with would've forced my mother and grandmother to split their attention, even if it was MOSTLY towards one or the other. I also would've been forced to compete for resources, learned to fight and makeup, etc. It is just such a huge mistake to have one child. My wife will go to the neighbors and all the kids will play together and all the commotion is just so normal. My crazy self-absorbed mother and I lived in all these little crappy apartments, and my granny lived in this decent neighborhood and at both places, with both women, there was absolutely no interaction with the neighbors. It was just so damn abnormal.

Anyway, blah blah about the past, just an observation. Whatever the label, whatever the diagnosis, its this simple. The lack of one other person to connect with in a meaningful way creates a hole in the child that they spend the rest of their life trying to fill. People that had it just can't imagine what its like to not have it. Damn, reading over that it just sounds so pitiful and whiny, but it really blows. Tonight while loading the dishwasher, with my wife and all the kids running all over, I'm holding back tears thinking about what I may do in the very near future if I don't pull up out of this.

Hopalong

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Re: Roots of narcissism
« Reply #32 on: August 30, 2009, 11:45:14 PM »
Hey Poly...

every now and then I ask someone here-- would you print out all your posts and show them to a therapist?

You are SO intelligent and articulate, even in the middle of a great spiritual crisis, you are helping me understand a lot about some others' suffering a lot better.

I wish you would do that...please show them what you've figured out. Or deliver it in an envelope for him/her to read before your next appointment....

Would you?

(You do predit absolutes, and negative ones, a lot. Have you been correct in all your other assumptions about how things in life would turn out? Is it possible that your most negative expectations in your darkest most vulnerable period....could NOT be a correct prediction? Don't answer...just hold the thought...)

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teartracks

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Re: Roots of narcissism
« Reply #33 on: August 31, 2009, 01:10:34 AM »



Hi Poly,

Many of us here have experienced the feeling of being 'stuck', not able to move backward or forward.  Using a metaphor, for me it felt like I was stuck in a knothole, half of me flailing on the back side, the other half flailing on the front side.  My greatest fear was that I would spend the rest of my life stuck and flailing away at the elements.  I lost track of how long I had that stuck feeling.  It felt like eons, but in reality, it was a relatively short amount of time.  The  IMPORTANT thing I want you to hear is this:  The feeling of being stuck passed.  One day, it was as if someone squirted me with WD-40 and I slipped right through that miserable knothole. 

tt






       

polymath

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Re: Roots of narcissism
« Reply #34 on: August 31, 2009, 07:30:08 AM »
Thanks for your kind words. Your intention was heartfelt and pure and I appreciate that.

37 years of just me is a long time. 37 years of no brother, sister, father, uncle, aunt, cousin, mother, grandmother, grandfather, or neighbor that 'saw' me. That had the courage and patience to step in and say, 'there is something very wrong here'. I could fill 10 pages with stories of events in my life where no one, I mean no one was there.

This is pretty personal so I apologize if this offends anyone. Remember your first 'personal experience' in your bedroom as a child, by yourself, I do. When I was finished, I couldn't find my underwear in the dark, so I slid my cut-off jeans on, slunk out to the living room and made up something about losing my underwear and needing some new ones. No one picked up on that, or if they did, didn't comment. They just got me some new ones and told me to go back to bed.

That was my whole life. When faced with a situation, or question in search of an answer, or life stressor, like losing my first girlfriend, there not being a single solitary soul 'there' to give me any type of guidance.

But this goes even deeper than that. Imagine if you can, a small boy, say 2 years old, fumbling around his world, trying new things, falling down, frolicking, playing, just being a 2 year old. Now imagine his mother always being right there, focused so intently on the boy, that he can hardly move without her being there to guide him, out of fear that he may hurt himself, or get dirty, or just say or do the 'wrong' thing. It was like that. Whatever I was doing was the wrong thing, no matter how small. It was really, unconciously done out of control, not genuine concern. Of course I can't remember this specifically but I'd bet anything thats the way it was.

Imagine as a 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 year old not having another child in the home to have to fight with over mom's attention, or laugh with about the day's events, or argue with over the bathroom, or scheme with. Imagine not having memories of people even saying your name (Surely it happened, I just don't remember it). That folks, is how dismissive and lonely my childhood was. My best memories of childhood are playing with a grasshopper, digging up sasafrass roots, riding my bike, all alone. They even bought be one of those toys for passing baseball with yourself, you know the ones with the net that throws the ball back to you. How $*#*$ insane is that.

Imagine as a 5 yr old, going to bed with a little bookshelf beside your bed and reading yourself to sleep every night, with not one memory of your mother reading a book to you. Maybe it happened but if you don't remember it, did it happen. I mean, what was she doing in there in the living room. Whatever she was doing, it was out of fear. She was afraid of that small boy in that other room so she just washed her hands and let me raise myself.

Dinner was often mom and my grandparents. I used to stuff my food down just to get through it and away from them. Granny used to tell me slow down and I'd just keep going. I told my mother about that a few weeks ago and asked her why she thought I did that. Her answer was, 'I dunno, I guess you just had somewhere to be.' I was 9 year old for Christ sake, where was I going, to watch more TV? Imagine, not one single meal, even around the TV, with mom and a boyfriend, not one single event, not one, with my mother and her significant other from birth to age 10. Not even a bad one where things started well and went downhill. How damn weird is that?

Imagine as an adult, having to think about your every move. I mean things like getting a bowl out of the cabinet or where does this glass go, while at the same time trying to communicate with other people. Facing a decision between getting bowl first or getting the milk and almost tripping because you hold both thoughts simultaneously and cant decide which direction in the kitchen to take.

I know you guys hear the pain in all that, all the despair but its real. If there was a therapy, or a drug, or a hypnotist that could turn that around, word would have gotten out and they would be filthy rich by now. Some situations don't get fixed and honestly I know this is one of them. I'm just about to the point where WHATEVER is on the other side beats this. Sure my children will be affected, but at least with me gone, the stress will be gone. My daughter this morning, shes 7. Would not get out of bed for school no matter how many times I tried, softly, easily. Then, with 3 minutes left till the bus, she's cussing me for getting her up to late, cussing me for her brother letting the cat in who might eat her hamster she lost 2 weeks ago and magically returned 3 days ago only to get lost again, by her. I just stood there like a deer in the headlights and queitly let it unfold as she slammed the door and called me an idiot. I know there a ton of advice to give for that situation but it all hangs on the ABILITY of the person to implement it.

Anyway, blah blah. All that doesn't mean a damn thing in the grand scheme, just felt like pouring it out.

Ami

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Re: Roots of narcissism
« Reply #35 on: August 31, 2009, 07:37:48 AM »
Keep Writing!                                   Ami
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

polymath

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Re: Roots of narcissism
« Reply #36 on: August 31, 2009, 07:48:00 AM »
Ami, your a treat, can I just come live with you :)

Ami

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Re: Roots of narcissism
« Reply #37 on: August 31, 2009, 07:50:37 AM »
I thought you were pushing me away. Make up your mind  :lol:                    Ami
« Last Edit: August 31, 2009, 07:52:18 AM by Ami »
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

BonesMS

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Re: Roots of narcissism
« Reply #38 on: August 31, 2009, 08:17:40 AM »
RS wrote:

"Imagine as an adult, having to think about your every move. I mean things like getting a bowl out of the cabinet or where does this glass go, while at the same time trying to communicate with other people. Facing a decision between getting bowl first or getting the milk and almost tripping because you hold both thoughts simultaneously and cant decide which direction in the kitchen to take."

I can DEFINITELY relate to that!!!!!!  I'm sure a LOT of that is my Asperger's!  (NWomb-Donor couldn't STAND IT that I was not "normal" to suit HER standards of PERFECTION!!!   :P)

Bones
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polymath

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Re: Roots of narcissism
« Reply #39 on: August 31, 2009, 08:20:20 AM »
yeah, bones, good ol' garden variety perfectionism and people-pleasing. I tip-toe around the house at night and early morning so obssessively as not to wake anyone up that I wind up kicking a toy or tripping over a blanket and waking up the whole damn house.

polymath

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Re: Roots of narcissism
« Reply #40 on: August 31, 2009, 08:38:35 AM »
and handling interruptions. How do you guys handle those? I mean, if you think about it, there is thinking and doing. We're all either doing something for ourselves or for others. When you are presented without outside stimulus forcing you to choose between what your doing right now and changing, how do you handle it? I get frustrated, hopefully not to visibly, when my thoughts or actions are interrupted.

BonesMS

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Re: Roots of narcissism
« Reply #41 on: August 31, 2009, 08:47:00 AM »
yeah, bones, good ol' garden variety perfectionism and people-pleasing. I tip-toe around the house at night and early morning so obssessively as not to wake anyone up that I wind up kicking a toy or tripping over a blanket and waking up the whole damn house.

Done that too!!!!  You're NOT alone!!!!   :D

((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((RS Polymath)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Bones
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Izzy_*now*

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Re: Roots of narcissism
« Reply #42 on: August 31, 2009, 12:47:12 PM »
Quote
37 years of just me is a long time. 37 years of no brother, sister, father, uncle, aunt, cousin, mother, grandmother, grandfather, or neighbor that 'saw' me. That had the courage and patience to step in and say, 'there is something very wrong here'. I could fill 10 pages with stories of events in my life where no one, I mean no one was there.

I understand very well, polymor

I was the only child, brown-haired, amidst 3 sisters and 1 brother, red-heads, was told I didn't belong, that I was adopted, & became the family scapegoat  I felt very alone and left out , so spent much time alone, and here I am, 70 years old, and still alone, but have been building a good "back and forth" relationship with one sister only. I used to hate family gatherings when everyone put on the good face and all appeared well and I saw them all as hypocrites.

I had a daughter who married an N and he dismissed me from his property when the eldest grandson was 4½, and granddaughter was 2. Her 3 children now are 23 (almost), 20 and 17. The youngest I never knew.  Their parents now divorced and the boys live with the N. I lost her in 1991, and now she lost 2 of her children, one in '98 and the other son about 06-'07

I met an N of my own, not knowing a thing about N-ism and moved 2000 miles away, with him, then left him. I am still here and happy to be in NC with all of them, except one younger sister who somehow has learned to understand where I am coming from and we share our perspectives now, on things that happened many years ago.

I still believe it is dysfunctional parenting that creates the disturbances we have in life. I will even admit to my not being a good parent, although I didn't realize it at the time. I was disabled in a car crash when she was 5 and in hospital until she was 6.

Just this year I have been out of commission with a broken leg, having been struck by a car. It is THIS accident and the help I have needed in recovering, "all about me" if you will, and realizing that I have no responsibilities except to myself at this particular time. All my work is being done and paid for by the driver's Insurance Co.

This then showed me, and I have now been told, that 40 years ago, I ought to have had help when I returned home when my daughter was 6. I see that it must have been very hard on her when I was learning again how to be a mother, and how to keep house, shop, work, cook, clean from a wheelchair, and I can almost get back inside my head and think about "I wonder how much of this is affecting her?" but she appeared happy. I had bouts of minor depression because I couldn't do for/with her as I used to, and I think now that I might have overthought this fault to the point whereby as she grew older she could see me as faulty, then her feelings were, in turn, picked up by me. I paid for her 'entertainment', baton, gym, swimming, summer camps, thru to age 16--that couldn't have been wrong, yet...? then summers I suggested the summer job routine to have her earn and manage her own money, yet she was a target for an N.

I have no other answer...... both of us seen as a target for an N, I from a famiily of 5 and she an only child.

Whoever said life was fair? The people I once 'circulated' with here, will be gone, are gone, just emails, since I had to quit my job with a not-for-profit Society for Seniors.

40 years from now I hope it is a Mack Truck that hits me. That ought to do in a 110-year old woman.

Izzy
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Edit in] I am coming across as a little "down' today, but my therapist missed our Saturday appointment, and I have been "worrying to death" the fact that no one sees any reason to x-ray my left knee, as I have asked, and that I'm thinking the main therapist has set out exercises to not take into consideration a minor problem with my left ankle. So I'm building up to how I approach my therapist today, who has no say, but how to convince her to approach the head therapist. My femur was broken at the hip, but it still rotates at the knee and I am having to re-learn to rotate that knee inwards....why?
« Last Edit: August 31, 2009, 01:00:13 PM by Izzy_*now* »
"The joy of love lasts such a short time, but the pain of love lasts one's whole life"

Ami

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Re: Roots of narcissism
« Reply #43 on: August 31, 2009, 01:58:47 PM »
((((((((((Izzy)))))))                                                                   Ami
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung