NM's birthday

[English]

Hi Bearwithme,
I've read, but not done exercises: Karyl McBride's Will I Ever Be Good Enough, John Bradshaw's Homecoming, and Nina Brown's Children of the Self Absorbed.

I've been working on accepting that NM is an NM.  I've been observing her and listening to her.  It turns out that everything she says is about HER.  She frequently buys me a gift; then wants me to come see her.  It's blatant manipulation which I will not fall for anymore.  The next step for me, and I'm getting there, is to realize that she doesn't love who I am, but her iimagination of who she wants me to be.  One problem is that I can see the hurt child within her and her low self-esteem is so obvious.  I know she suffered abuse as a child although to hear her tell it, it was a wonderful childhood.  I feel sorry for her, but I can't be her parent.  She needs to be her own parent; just as I need to be my own parent.  I wish I could help her, but I wouldn't be able to get through her brick wall.

It's so sad.  I do feel bad for her, but she has hurt me so much in the past (and present).  I put her pain ahead of mine.  I'm noticing right now that I have been trained to take care of her at MY expense.  "She is more important than I am."  Wow, I can't get past that. Always putting her pain ahead of mine.  I feel guilt if I think of myself first.  That her pain must be worse than mine, so I help her with hers while she abuses me.  "I am less important than she is."  My goodness this is a STRONG feeling.  How do I get pass this?  I am important? Me? Why do I think I am not important? If I could talk to my 9 year old self, my 12 year old self, my 18 year old self, I would tell them how important they are and that I love them.  I wish I could help them through their suffering.  I wish I could be there for them.  I wish I could nurture them; I wish I could give them advice because they didn't know others could help them.  They thought they had to figure out life on their own with no help.  I remember all these times when NM ignored them. 

I wish I could tell them that most things take practice, that they don't have to do things perfectly the first time. And if they don't do it well the first time that doesn't mean they're no good.  NF taught us how to play chess, but only one move.  Then they were expected to be good at it, and since they weren't immediately wonderful, they were failures.

They never asked questions; they never asked for help.  They were supposed to know things by osmosis.  And if they didn't they were dumb and failures.  Ya know, even IF they were stupid and failures--"I" would love them, nurture them, support them  to be the best that they can be.

For my son, all I really want for him is that he be happy.  I love him how ever he is; I nurture him; I support him.  I accept who he is and love him as he is.  NM is upset that my son didn't finish college and rags on him about it.  For me I think college would be good for him in that he might get a job he is happier with.  But right now he is happy and comfortable with what he is doing now. My son has quit talking to NM.  Good for him.  I wish I could do that.  But right now I'm limiting it to once a week.

[HeartofPilgrimage]

English,

For me, part of the point of going "low contact" with my mother was to build up other resources besides her (for myself). So, if you don't make it to your "goal" of not seeing her til Thanksgiving, well, at least you have had more of a breather from her than if you never set any goals. And in the meantime, hopefully you can build up strength to live your own life from other sources. Every day that you spend investing in other things besides making a NM "happy" (as if any N is ever really happy!), that's another day's worth of strength for yourself.

I have not gone NC, but rather LC, and have used the time to make female friends. They cry on my shoulder, and I cry on theirs, and we are all equals in this friendship business. It is really really nice. And with the cut-back on time with my mom, I have come to realize these friends are not going to suddenly slip in a cutting remark along with the jokes. That unconscious expectation of getting stabbed in the back unexpectedly is what kept me from making close female friends before, I think.

[English]

Why do I do this to myself?  I went to NM's house for the first time in a month.  I was going to try to make it to Thanksgiving without seeing her.  Didn't make it.  i stupidly went over.  She:

criticized me because the last two times she saw me I happened to be wearing a black shirt.  She did this by proving she's an expert on clothing because she watches What Not to Wear all the time. I like to occassionally wear a black shirt or pants.  But of course my opinion is wrong.   Apparently she doesn't apply this wealth of knowledge to her own clothing.

crticized me because i wasn't ready to talk to her about my childhood.  She did this by saying that my brother went through therapy and so was able to work through his childhood with her.  (He is a T now)  She said now they can talk about anything to each other. (I don't believe this.) She repeated her conversation with him.  She told me he said that I would when I was ready.  I said I would never be ready.  I'm NOT about to give her MORE ammunition.  I DO NOT trust her as far as I can throw an elephant.

hurt me more by bringing up a rape that happened to my 20 years ago.  I have NO idea what her purpose was other than to hurt me.

I'm angry at myself for being sympathetic and taking pity on her because she hadn't seen me in a month.  Why does she have such a hold over me? 
It ruined my day.  I'm still miserable over it.  Why are her feelings more iimportant than mine?  Why do I do this to myself.
I think I may be moving from GC to SG.

And she is so engulfing.  She criticized my wedding ring.  She said she could have one of her rings resized to fit me.  I said I wanted to choose my own. She replied that she wanted me to draw what I want and she would find a way to get it for me.  I said no.  When I want a new one, I'll get a new one. She just doesn't get it.   

And three different times she pouted and fake sniffled like a 4 year old.  In a 70 year old woman-amazing! 

I just want to end with I HATE HER!!!!!  (Next time I think about seeing her, I'm going to reread my posts.  Maybe that'll help.)

[Ami]

Hi Bearwithme,
I've read, but not done exercises: Karyl McBride's Will I Ever Be Good Enough, John Bradshaw's Homecoming, and Nina Brown's Children of the Self Absorbed.

I've been working on accepting that NM is an NM.  I've been observing her and listening to her.  It turns out that everything she says is about HER.  She frequently buys me a gift; then wants me to come see her.  It's blatant manipulation which I will not fall for anymore.  The next step for me, and I'm getting there, is to realize that she doesn't love who I am, but her iimagination of who she wants me to be.  One problem is that I can see the hurt child within her and her low self-esteem is so obvious.  I know she suffered abuse as a child although to hear her tell it, it was a wonderful childhood.  I feel sorry for her, but I can't be her parent.  She needs to be her own parent; just as I need to be my own parent.  I wish I could help her, but I wouldn't be able to get through her brick wall.

It's so sad.  I do feel bad for her, but she has hurt me so much in the past (and present).  I put her pain ahead of mine.  I'm noticing right now that I have been trained to take care of her at MY expense.  "She is more important than I am."  Wow, I can't get past that. Always putting her pain ahead of mine.  I feel guilt if I think of myself first.  That her pain must be worse than mine, so I help her with hers while she abuses me.  "I am less important than she is."  My goodness this is a STRONG feeling.  How do I get pass this?  I am important? Me? Why do I think I am not important? If I could talk to my 9 year old self, my 12 year old self, my 18 year old self, I would tell them how important they are and that I love them.  I wish I could help them through their suffering.  I wish I could be there for them.  I wish I could nurture them; I wish I could give them advice because they didn't know others could help them.  They thought they had to figure out life on their own with no help.  I remember all these times when NM ignored them. 

I wish I could tell them that most things take practice, that they don't have to do things perfectly the first time. And if they don't do it well the first time that doesn't mean they're no good.  NF taught us how to play chess, but only one move.  Then they were expected to be good at it, and since they weren't immediately wonderful, they were failures.

They never asked questions; they never asked for help.  They were supposed to know things by osmosis.  And if they didn't they were dumb and failures.  Ya know, even IF they were stupid and failures--"I" would love them, nurture them, support them  to be the best that they can be.

For my son, all I really want for him is that he be happy.  I love him how ever he is; I nurture him; I support him.  I accept who he is and love him as he is.  NM is upset that my son didn't finish college and rags on him about it.  For me I think college would be good for him in that he might get a job he is happier with.  But right now he is happy and comfortable with what he is doing now. My son has quit talking to NM.  Good for him.  I wish I could do that.  But right now I'm limiting it to once a week.

 Dear ((English))
  Your feelings about yourself and your NM could have been written by me:taking care of her, HER importance, your guilt when you have needs or wants, your pity for her, she uses your pity to abuse you more.
 I understand ,English.                               xxoo  Ami

[bearwithme]

(((English))))

Boy those NM's are brilliant aren't they!  You are in the same position as I am as you felt this "guilt" for not seeing her for so long.  That is what they want you to feel.  They want you to feel sorry for their lonely souls and take care of them and it works on you, you fell for it.  I do to.  It is very difficult to pull those reigns back and stop that wicked horse from running amok with you--back into the arms of your NM who couldn't care less.  Truth is, if you didn't go over to her house, the outcome would be the same whether you waited a week, a month, or a year.  My T said that their appetite to "feel" important and loved and wanted and coddled is insatiable.  They will NEVER be satisfied.  You can't do or love enough to fill them up, their belly remains empty forever and ever.  What they need you can not give them.  It's impossible.  So why are we trying so hard???? I don't know!! 

I think I turned a corner this week in communicating with my Nmom.  She went from begging to come see her only granddaughter (my daughter) to not wanting to see her at all just because I made Thanksgiving plans that did not include her.  Her original plan was to fly to where I live the first week in November because she missed the baby so much and she said she wanted to see her so badly--it would also allow my husband and I to celebrate our anniversary together and maybe go out to eat during that time. When she found out that I had plans on Thanksgiving with my cousin and her family as they wanted to come up and visit us and that would leave my Nmom with no where to go (since she usually gets invited by my cousin to have Thanksgiving at her house), she started spitting her "mean juice" and told me to forget about her trip to see us and the baby, that she wouldn't come up at all and didn't know when she could.  I thought she wanted to see her granddaughter????  No. It's all about "her" needs and who is going to make "her" feel loved and wanted, who was going to inviter "her" for Thanksgiving.  So she dumped her only granddaughter for her pride. 

On the phone, I just replied, "Okay mom, don't come...do whatever you want, I don't care."  She was silent then began to pout. 

I really don't care what she does.  I don't care if she sits alone on Thanksgiving and eats catfood off the floor!  I'm not going to feel bad about it.

Sorry to rant English....I'm going to get those books you mentioned.  Thank you.

Bear

[Hopalong]

Hi English,

It's a very strange feeling when you say something to the Nparent that you haven't said before.

When you think it through so hard that you actually believe this is right, then you've opened the door.

Just an example:

Mom, I've decided that I'm going to be more responsible for myself. I am realizing that I feel unhappy and depressed when I listen to you criticize things about me. So I'm going to take care of myself in a new way, and that is, if you begin to criticize me about anything, I will leave, and I'll come another time.

It really shocks them. And it takes a couple times, sometimes, because their instinct is to go, Change back! (Your assurance that you will be back is further evidence that this isn't a "fight" or a "hissyfit", no matter how they respond, you're not going there...)

I actually did this with my mother. I was calm and serious and when she began to go into an area I had specifically told her I wouldn't discuss, I took control by staying calm, making my farewell brief, and politely but firmly (and immediately) leaving. She was shocked but it was in one of those moments when the "power shifted."

I wasn't getting a kick out of it or feeling any particular glee. And she sensed this, I believe. I was being mature, and taking myself seriously, and suddenly I wasn't the child any more. I was being an adult woman, and she could feel my response was coming from a new, non-helpless place.

(This wasn't magic and I didn't do it perfectly. But it really was a big step forward.)

But I have another story...once an N, always an N, even after death! (That's on another thread.)

hugs
Hops

[JudyK]

Dear English,
  Sigh......Aren't they ALL just so alike???!!!   My NM usually returns every piece of clothing we give her, or she complains we should have bought her the flowers for Mother's Day, instead of her birthday (her birthday is May 29th), or, she'll keep a gift for awhile and then give it to the person who orginally bought it for her.
   When my parents 50th was looming, we decided to have a big party for them.  NM suspected it and hinted that we weren't capable of inviting the "right" people.  I told her it was rude of her to complain about the very people who were planning (and paying) for a celebration.  She told my sister I hurt HER feelings!
                     Many cyber hugs to you, Judy

[English]

Hi English,

It's a very strange feeling when you say something to the Nparent that you haven't said before.

When you think it through so hard that you actually believe this is right, then you've opened the door.

Just an example:

Mom, I've decided that I'm going to be more responsible for myself. I am realizing that I feel unhappy and depressed when I listen to you criticize things about me. So I'm going to take care of myself in a new way, and that is, if you begin to criticize me about anything, I will leave, and I'll come another time.

It really shocks them. And it takes a couple times, sometimes, because their instinct is to go, Change back! (Your assurance that you will be back is further evidence that this isn't a "fight" or a "hissyfit", no matter how they respond, you're not going there...)

I actually did this with my mother. I was calm and serious and when she began to go into an area I had specifically told her I wouldn't discuss, I took control by staying calm, making my farewell brief, and politely but firmly (and immediately) leaving. She was shocked but it was in one of those moments when the "power shifted."

I wasn't getting a kick out of it or feeling any particular glee. And she sensed this, I believe. I was being mature, and taking myself seriously, and suddenly I wasn't the child any more. I was being an adult woman, and she could feel my response was coming from a new, non-helpless place.

hugs
Hops

Thanks Hops.  I'm going to do this.  That's a good compromise.  However, I am NOT going to see her until Thanks giving.  She'll be coming to my place along with a lot of other family.  What do I do if she embarrasses or criticizes me then? 

[BonesMS]

Hi English,

It's a very strange feeling when you say something to the Nparent that you haven't said before.

When you think it through so hard that you actually believe this is right, then you've opened the door.

Just an example:

Mom, I've decided that I'm going to be more responsible for myself. I am realizing that I feel unhappy and depressed when I listen to you criticize things about me. So I'm going to take care of myself in a new way, and that is, if you begin to criticize me about anything, I will leave, and I'll come another time.

It really shocks them. And it takes a couple times, sometimes, because their instinct is to go, Change back! (Your assurance that you will be back is further evidence that this isn't a "fight" or a "hissyfit", no matter how they respond, you're not going there...)

I actually did this with my mother. I was calm and serious and when she began to go into an area I had specifically told her I wouldn't discuss, I took control by staying calm, making my farewell brief, and politely but firmly (and immediately) leaving. She was shocked but it was in one of those moments when the "power shifted."

I wasn't getting a kick out of it or feeling any particular glee. And she sensed this, I believe. I was being mature, and taking myself seriously, and suddenly I wasn't the child any more. I was being an adult woman, and she could feel my response was coming from a new, non-helpless place.

hugs
Hops

Thanks Hops.  I'm going to do this.  That's a good compromise.  However, I am NOT going to see her until Thanks giving.  She'll be coming to my place along with a lot of other family.  What do I do if she embarrasses or criticizes me then?  

(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((English)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

If NWomb-Donor gets a case of the A$$ and behaves like an obnoxious fool in my own home, I would treat her as any other unwelcome guest and tell her to leave IMMEDIATELY along with:  "Don't let the door hit ya where the Good Lord split ya!"  If she REFUSES to leave, claiming that you and yours are HER PROPERTY, then have the police remove the TRESPASSER because she has become a TRESPASSER!  That's what I would do if I were in your situation.  (I have tossed out a former friend who insisted on showing up UNINVITED!)

BTW, I would also have a LARGE sign prominently placed where NWomb-Donor couldn't POSSIBLY miss it...."MY HOUSE, MY RULES!"

Bones

[HeartofPilgrimage]

English, I've had some success, when there are other people around, of saying like you were talking to a child, "Well, that wasn't a very nice thing to say, was it?"

[Hopalong]

Hi English,
How about this strategy:

Write her a note ahead of time that is very short and no embroidery and just says, politely:

Mom, I've decided that I'm going to be more responsible for myself. I am realizing that I feel unhappy and depressed when I listen to you criticize things about me or embarrass me in front of others. So I'm going to take care of myself in a new way, and that is, if you begin to criticize me about anything when I visit you, I will leave, and I'll come another time.

When you're in my home at Thanksgiving, I ask you to not criticize me or embarrass me in front of others. If this happens, I will ask you to leave and we will visit another time.

Part Two only works if you mean it. Even if someone else has to drive her or whatever. It is YOUR home and you have a right to be treated respectfully. And your not being angry or threatening abandonment, that's the key. You are dealing responsibly with your own needs in the present, and you are responding to what she does in the present. That's it.

If she comes another time and is courteous, then that's fine.

Sometimes, they do catch on.

luck,
Hops

It's extreme assertiveness I'm suggesting, but it actually can be done in a very calm way.

[English]

Thank you all for your advice.  I definitely need to work on the assertiveness.  It takes a lot of courage.  It's funny; I can be strong and courageous around others, but when it comes to NM it's harder. 

[Ami]

(((((English))))  Thinking of you. It IS really, really hard to deal with an NM.Most people never have to go through what we did .
                                                            xxoo  Ami

[English]

Ok, this is bizarre.  I haven't heard from NM in 2 weeks.  That's just unheard of.  Not that I want to hear from her.  I am curious though why she hasn't called. Totally strange.

[BonesMS]

Maybe she's busy getting her N-Supply from another source.

Bones