Inability to apologize....an "N" Symptom?

[Ales2]

I noticed three years ago (2006) that I went through a series of arguments with my NM (before I knew she was N - now I would not bother to argue with her - its like teaching a pig to sing;). Rarely did she admit to her actions (predicatble) rarely would she acknowledge that she meant it "that way". She basically denied everything. I used to be very upset with her for not apologizing for the hurt she caused, and she has never apologized.  When she did apologize, it was only to keep the peace and avoid the consequences of NC, she's never admitted the mistake.  Anyone else have the same experience? I always thought this was weird, but now knowing she is N, its actually understandable. 

[Sealynx]

Ales,
I find that they never "look back" emotionally so there is no reflection that leads to admission of guilt and the seeking of forgiveness. While they "remember" an argument or a slight and will use it later, they do not seem to carry the pain of arguments the way we do. I think this is why they never seem to learn from them or try to avoid them in the future. They also seem to live very much in the moment and spend most of their time compensating with defensive behaviors that mask their constant jealousy of others and discomfort with not being the center of attention.. A good example would be my N aunt who just visited my niece, supposedly for her birthday.

My aunt shared the driving with a family friend and they took my 85 year old mother with them for the eight hour trip. The first night they all went out to eat. After dinner, N aunt insisted that my mother and the friend go immediately back to the hotel instead of visiting with my niece. When the child started to cry, my aunt ridiculed her tears calling them "crocodile tears". As near as we can figure my aunt got mad because my brother-in-law insisted on picking up the bill. My sis and brother-in-law went through some bad financial times but they are doing fine now and both have good jobs. If she had managed to stop him from picking up the bill, she would have gone back to the hotel room and talked about how cheap he was all night! Leaving was her way of punishing everyone because she was unhappy at not depriving him of picking up the bill. The other factor was the addition of the friend. Her social nature would be competition, keeping my aunt from total dominance and attention.

The next day they went shopping and she continually derided my sister for "buying the child everything she sees". It was her birthday after all, but the real reason was probably that my sister was enjoying the company of the family friend who is a very kind, giving person. The aunt simply did not have the ability to be part of a threesome and enjoy the on going conversation. One of her favorite statements is, "I don't do that." This includes most fun forms of social interaction from going out with a group to playing games.

That night my BIL came home a little late after the second 12 hour day of driving to a city three hours away through fog and rain to cover for a co-worker who was out. When he comes home he has to log in all of his jobs on the computer. He worked at the kitchen table while they all chatted and ate his dinner while finishing the work. The minute he was ready to socialize, my aunt again insisted it was time to go. She was hoping to "punish" him and again make him the scapegoat, but no one else took offense. She was also again being forced to deal with my sister's enjoyment of the friend and was being forced to either join in their conversation or sit and "listen".

As noted my aunt hates all forms of what most people would call "FUN". She is incapable of harmonizing and will turn the topic to some argument whenever possible. Versions of this went on for the entire visit. She completely dominated everyone with her "disappearing acts" and my N mother (who is not as N as her sister, more the ignoring type and mildly schizophrenic) "knows how she is" and wouldn't argue with her.. She also wakes up at dawn and would call my sister at 8 a.m., perhaps in hope of provoking my BIL but probably because she was just awake and bored. She does not hesitate to tell you when she is bored and tries to make it your fault. Part of her "I don't do that" routine includes watching movies, or discussions that don't involve extremes of right and wrong.  She will flat out tell you that if something on TV is over 30 minutes long don't put it on.

The problem with getting an apology is that none of this is accidental. It is all intentional. What is there to apologize for? It is her sick needs against your normal needs. Since she has never had your feelings and has no empathy, she does not understand that not everyone is like her.

[Ami]

Dear Ales
 The N does not realize they did anything wrong cuz they do not have empathy. Empathy tells you that you hurt someone. You know how you would feel in a similar situation so you can put yourself in s/one else's shoes.
 The N cannot do this so they are like a dog who learns not to go on the sofa b/c they will get punished but never understands why.  You can train them but it is imperfect training and they will  hurt you if you trust them. It is a major,major bummer to have one as a parent. It is a horror show that never ends.             xxoo  Ami

[JudyK]

Dear Ales2,
  NO WAY! would my mother ever apologize! As I replied to another thread, she asked me what was wrong several months ag, saying she wanted to make things right.  When I told her some things, she became hysterical and blamed me for everything.  My T says N's don't think they do or have done anything wrong, so what do they have to apologize for?  BTW, I love the analogy, trying to teach a pig to sing!!!y!! LOL         hugs, Jud

[Gabben]

Ales,
I find that they never "look back" emotionally so there is no reflection that leads to admission of guilt and the seeking of forgiveness. While they "remember" an argument or a slight and will use it later, they do not seem to carry the pain of arguments the way we do. I think this is why they never seem to learn from them or try to avoid them in the future. They also seem to live very much in the moment and spend most of their time compensating with defensive behaviors that mask their constant jealousy of others and discomfort with not being the center of attention.. A good example would be my N aunt who just visited my niece, supposedly for her birthday.

My aunt shared the driving with a family friend and they took my 85 year old mother with them for the eight hour trip. The first night they all went out to eat. After dinner, N aunt insisted that my mother and the friend go immediately back to the hotel instead of visiting with my niece. When the child started to cry, my aunt ridiculed her tears calling them "crocodile tears". As near as we can figure my aunt got mad because my brother-in-law insisted on picking up the bill. My sis and brother-in-law went through some bad financial times but they are doing fine now and both have good jobs. If she had managed to stop him from picking up the bill, she would have gone back to the hotel room and talked about how cheap he was all night! Leaving was her way of punishing everyone because she was unhappy at not depriving him of picking up the bill. The other factor was the addition of the friend. Her social nature would be competition, keeping my aunt from total dominance and attention.

The next day they went shopping and she continually derided my sister for "buying the child everything she sees". It was her birthday after all, but the real reason was probably that my sister was enjoying the company of the family friend who is a very kind, giving person. The aunt simply did not have the ability to be part of a threesome and enjoy the on going conversation. One of her favorite statements is, "I don't do that." This includes most fun forms of social interaction from going out with a group to playing games.

That night my BIL came home a little late after the second 12 hour day of driving to a city three hours away through fog and rain to cover for a co-worker who was out. When he comes home he has to log in all of his jobs on the computer. He worked at the kitchen table while they all chatted and ate his dinner while finishing the work. The minute he was ready to socialize, my aunt again insisted it was time to go. She was hoping to "punish" him and again make him the scapegoat, but no one else took offense. She was also again being forced to deal with my sister's enjoyment of the friend and was being forced to either join in their conversation or sit and "listen".

As noted my aunt hates all forms of what most people would call "FUN". She is incapable of harmonizing and will turn the topic to some argument whenever possible. Versions of this went on for the entire visit. She completely dominated everyone with her "disappearing acts" and my N mother (who is not as N as her sister, more the ignoring type and mildly schizophrenic) "knows how she is" and wouldn't argue with her.. She also wakes up at dawn and would call my sister at 8 a.m., perhaps in hope of provoking my BIL but probably because she was just awake and bored. She does not hesitate to tell you when she is bored and tries to make it your fault. Part of her "I don't do that" routine includes watching movies, or discussions that don't involve extremes of right and wrong.  She will flat out tell you that if something on TV is over 30 minutes long don't put it on.

The problem with getting an apology is that none of this is accidental. It is all intentional. What is there to apologize for? It is her sick needs against your normal needs. Since she has never had your feelings and has no empathy, she does not understand that not everyone is like her.

As I read this all I could think was that your aunt is the pot always calling the kettle black.

[Gabben]

Dear Ales
 The N does not realize they did anything wrong cuz they do not have empathy. Empathy tells you that you hurt someone. You know how you would feel in a similar situation so you can put yourself in s/one else's shoes.
 The N cannot do this so they are like a dog who learns not to go on the sofa b/c they will get punished but never understands why.  You can train them but it is imperfect training and they will  hurt you if you trust them. It is a major,major bummer to have one as a parent. It is a horror show that never ends.             xxoo  Ami

Well said. Although I will throw out a little hope, I have seen progress in my mom over the years. She has gained a slight ability to empathize, slight. There is always hope, I think?

I really love the analogy of the dog training. It is so true, my roommate behaves because she does not want to get in trouble, but she has no ability to empathize as to why it is important to pay bills and rent on time, to communicate, to consider others needs or feelings.

When I think of the N's that I have encountered, they can be very good and responsible when it comes to doing the right social thing, but as Ami said, only for face value do they do the right thing, in their hearts they have no grasp of the moral. They can conform, behave, be diplomatic, be engaging, be democratic, even be charitable, as long as it all creates a steady stream of N supply. They would never be able to grasp that an apology means caring about others, caring for your wrongs, acknowledging that we are all human and that we all make mistakes and that it is OK. They lack conscious, or at least a major piece of heart.

In the end, for the N's, their voracious appetite for N-Supply usually trips them up, they are so blinded by greed that they end up eating themselves.

[Gabben]

It is also easy for me to forget the N's inner world, a world that I at one time knew well myself, the world of image, or face. An N's entire life and existence is about procuring N-Supply, that is it, nothing more, nothing less, that is ALL that they live for.

We are exist for them, N's, to affirm them as great, wonderful, powerful, beautiful, smart, in other words, amazing glorified beings, people above and beyond reproach, they are perfect to themselves; if anyone dares to hold up another mirror, that does not affirm the mirror of perfection they have created as their self image, then they will do all possible to smash you into the ground, twist, turn, contort reality to suit their needs, no matter how much they hurt you, violated you, smashed and trashed you. They cannot empathize, they can only see their image of perfection. Anything less in measuring up to their image of perfection in terms of feedback, is considered a violent attack on them, they will perceive you as envious, or evil, or abusive, when really all you are doing is being human and normal, and sometimes even very loving.

[Nonameanymore]

It must be. When I started a discussion with NM hoping I will find the guts to talk about something that she may have done that hurt me and I thought she would apologise, au contraire, I ended up apologising to her.
This happened with a lot of people and her.

My best friend has also never apologised. I realised it only recently after we had a massive fight. I have apologised to her for everything in the past, but I don't think the phrase 'I am sorry' is part of her vocabulary. After I realised that, I started paying attention if she says I am sorry to anyone but I don't think she does. I don't even know how what's possible. After the fight and for the first time, I started considering the possibility that she may be an N. I always saw her as having a very strong and healthy self-esteem. The jury is still out on this... I don't think she is an N thought.

[BonesMS]

After 40 years, I came to the inescapable conclusion that the person, who ALWAYS PROCLAIMED HERSELF AS MY BEST FRIEND, is an N!  

Time and time again, she would create one mess after another, which damaged others, and she would simply IGNORE the damage!!!  At one point, I told her POINT BLANK that she owed an apology to the host and hostess of a party for her boorish, RUDE behaviors!!!  Her response?  "I don't need to apologize!  They'll get over it!!!  No Biggee!!!!"  

Then, during my graduation, she behaved like a TOTAL A$$!!!    After that, I went EXTREMELY LOW CONTACT and her TRUE N COLORS CAME OUT FULL BORE!!!!!!!    

Examples:

Shortly after I obtained a new job within two weeks of graduating, and I was working one of my first shifts, this N sends me an e-mail, DEMANDING that I INSTANTANEOUSLY DROP what I'm doing and RUN OVER TO HER HOUSE TO TAKE CARE OF HER MESS THAT HAS BECOME INCONVENIENT!!  She attempted to IGNORE my saying "NO!" by sending e-mail after e-mail repeating her DEMAND!!!  (I ignored her e-mails and left her to stew in her own mess that she created!)

When I scheduled an appointment, she tried EVERY WHICH WAY TO FORCE ME TO DROP MY APPOINTMENT FOR HER CONVENIENCE!!!  (She failed and I went to my scheduled appointment.)

Showing up at my building, AFTER BEING TOLD NOT TO, DEMANDING that I get out of a sick bed for HER CONVENIENCE AND ENTERTAIN HER WHIMS WHILE ILLEGALLY PARKING HER CAR IN MY NEIGHBOR'S RESERVED SPOT....AGAIN!  (Her excuse was that Visitors' Parking is INCONVENIENT!   )

Calls me up, DEMANDING that I INSTANTANEOUSLY DROP whatever is going on in my life to drive her sister to her chemotherapy appointments because SHE finds these medical appointments, (that is trying to save her sister's life), INCONVENIENT!!!!  (I was in the midst of my own medical crises and PHYSICALLY UNABLE to drive!!!!  When she was informed that I was TOO PHYSICALLY ILL TO BE DRIVING ANYWHERE, and that someone else was taking me to my medical tests, appointments, and so forth, she completely BLEW ME OFF and MINDLESSLY BLATHERS:  "BUT.......I'LL PAY YOU!!!!!"    Typical N-Boob with her head up her nether regions!)

Finally, after SEVERAL weeks of Low Contact to NO Contact, she sends me an e-mail HINTING that SHE THINKS there MIGHT be a problem!    I told her EXACTLY WHAT THE PROBLEMS ARE AND WHY I DON'T APPRECIATE THIS CR*P FROM HER!!!!

Did she apologize?!?!?!?!?!?  HECK NO!!!!!  She proceeds to BLATHER MINDLESSLY about non-sequiturs like the NBoob she is, TOTALLY IGNORING THE DAMAGE, AS USUAL!!!  (I think, in her little brain, she figures if she simply IGNORES a problem, it will MAGICALLY go away and she can continue to do as she pleases!  No Biggee!!!   )

The FINAL straw came a couple days before my birthday!  She calls me up, NOT to wish me a Happy Birthday, but to passively-aggressively "fish" for any hints that I have NOW become available for HER ROYAL CONVENIENCE and take over driving her sister to her chemotherapy appointments!!!  She was given a FLAT NO!!!!  At that, she starts WHINING that I don't "call her anymore"!  My response?  "I don't want to talk to YOU anymore!" and hung up on her!!!!!  Done, Done, Done!!!  Stick a fork in me, I am DONE!!!!!  

Bones

P.S.

One other thing that I have begun to notice regarding N's.....their inability to take any RESPONSIBILITY!!!!! 

For example, this one person I know has been diagnosed with Type II Diabetes.  This REQUIRES TAKING RESPONSIBILITY for monitoring blood sugar levels, watching what kind of food goes in the mouth, taking the necessary medications e.g. oral meds or insulin, refilling prescriptions, and so forth.  This one individual, that I have been observing, has done NONE OF THE ABOVE!!!  As a result, his blood sugar levels have shot sky-high and now, whether he likes it or not, he will have to begin giving himself insulin injections because the oral medications can't do it anymore.  He's WHINING that he doesn't like taking insulin injections and DOES NOT WANT THE RESPONSIBILITY of injecting himself!  If he expects others to do it for him.....he just MIGHT get an unpleasant surprise!!    

[SilverLining]

I  When she did apologize, it was only to keep the peace and avoid the consequences of NC, she's never admitted the mistake.  Anyone else have the same experience?

For me this was one of the keys to identifying the N-ishness of my FOO.  I could count on one hand the total number of apologies I've gotten from them for any reason over my entire lifetime.  Since the world revolves around them, they can't acknowledge the damage they might do to anybody else with their behavior.  I don't think it even registers.

Of course the opposite doesn't hold true.  They fully expect apologies from others when they are hurt.  And they have a way of turning things around so they are always a victim, even when they have damaged someone else.    

  

[binks]

My Nm would sometimes apologize but always with a caveat or a way of twisting things around, or as a way of adding another insult. e.g. "I'm sorry I called you fat, but you must admit you are overweight". "I'm sorry I upset you but you upset me first, and I am so sensitive"

This always upset me so much, adding the 'but' to the apology totally devalues it, clearly a deliberate ploy used by NM who was never actually sorry.

If I carefully explained that she had hurt my feelings, she would either 'not remember' the incident or say that I was being too sensitive. She actually had the gall to say once "I have never hurt your feelings, how can you ever say that I have"

As Sealynx says, they cannot reflect on what they have done or said.