Identifying behaviors which create the voiceless role

[swimmer]

Has anyone here looked at the actual behaviors which "invite" a voiceless role in a given group.  I marvel how people in my profession can actually lack skill, but somehow they are never scapegoated or made wrong.

Swimmer:)

[Ami]

I think that if we want to be liked by others more than like  ourselves,  predator types pick that up . Predator types are waiting for prey. If we LOOK like prey, we are in line for being road kill . Confident people will not prey on you only weak  people .      xxx ooo  Am

[swimmer]

Great insight Ami.  I tend to "invite" this when I have other vulnerabilities going on in my life.  It's like a snowball, the more I try, the more the predators find me.  I try to be "better" at work after being wrongly critisized, instead of just stating what is and moving on.    I've found this is such an inconsistant patten for me.  I'll be "okay" for a few years, then something will knock me down if I'm caught off guard.  I guess what I knew as "being on guard" is simply confidence.  I need to work on maintaining my confidence, even through rough times.

 

[nolongeraslave]

^I'm the same. Looking back when I was the most vulnerable, I was like a ball bouncing back and forth. Being abused in all areas of my life. Not just one. That makes it tougher to get out.

When you feel so down and numb, it's hard to think clearly and recognize who is a "safe person or place" that won't exploit you.  When I have rough moment, I try to be careful who I share it with. 

In the past, I had a bad habit of exploding my emotions to the wrong people (who then took advantage of me). 

[Ales2]

Wow - there was a lot said here that resonates with me. I agree with Ami about predator types picking weaker types and I agree with the vulnerabilities coming up that might provide the catalyst from

I started what I call an assertiveness journal - which I have found to be very helpful - and it contains all the situations where I was silent when I should have stood up for myself. Basically, state the incident and what I would have (or should have said) in response. I also can make conclusions and have learned lessons from it Its been enormously helpful. I still dont know the one thing that makes me a target - its nebulous - I wish it were specific (like wearing red when i shoudl wear blue) and something i could clearly define, understand and eradicate, but I hope to find that answer soon. for the time being, I think its the speaking up for myself that will make it change. 

[HeartofPilgrimage]

I heard a comedian on the radio the other day do a bit about his desire to "go teach self defense to wildebeest." He was really funny as he pointed out "those things have horns! Why do they just stand there and let the lions chew their <explicit name for a body part deleted> off?" He went on to say that his goal was to have the lion go back to the pride and say, "Hey man, leave the wildebeest alone. Remember the good ol' days when they used to stand there while we chewed their <deleted> off? Well, Uncle Leo is in a coma now, some wildebeest has been taking self-defense."

Anyway it was funny on the radio. But also it made me think.

[Sealynx]

I think Ami brings up a good point about the predator/ prey relationship.  I would add that far too many people take out feelings they don't want to own on people who can't or won't fight back. No one in their right mind is going to take on the boss because they are feeling angry about something gone wrong in their little world. But many will berate a subordinate in order to release the rage. We have been trained to be understanding and try to fix what has gone wrong no matter what it is. In many cases that is either impossible or inappropriate because it originates outside the issue at hand. Even thinking about "what we did" is a waste of time. One of my New Year's resolutions is to no longer be the "nicest person I know."

[HeartofPilgrimage]

I like your NY resolution, Sealynx. I don't know when or why we as a society decided that being nice is a virtue. Nice is not synonymous with honest, kind, loving, patient, any of the things that are real virtues. Nice = being afraid for anybody to not like us. Nice might equal being dishonest, because we don't want to speak the truth for fear of not being liked. It might equal being unkind when a bit of truth spoken tactfully would be the kind thing to do. It might equal being unloving when a person is self-destructing and we are too fixed on being nice to give them a wake-up call. It might equal being impatient when we walk away because sticking around would be so frustrating that we might not "be nice."

Great resolution! I'm going to think of all the ways "being nice" is counterproductive to both me and others, and substitute being nice with being a better human being.

[nolongeraslave]

Has anyone struggled with being screwed over for being nice, but still being screwed over for standing up for yourself?

I have been told, "It's your fault. You're too nice to people."

When I do fight back, it's suddenly "No wonder people don't like you. You're such a bitch. Can't you be more nice?"

Does that make sense to anyone? It's like I don't know what to do.  Then again, I was often told I was mean when I didn't do what narcissists wanted me to do (have sex with them, wear what they wanted me to wear, etc). 

[BonesMS]

Has anyone struggled with being screwed over for being nice, but still being screwed over for standing up for yourself?

I have been told, "It's your fault. You're too nice to people."

When I do fight back, it's suddenly "No wonder people don't like you. You're such a bitch. Can't you be more nice?"

Does that make sense to anyone? It's like I don't know what to do.  Then again, I was often told I was mean when I didn't do what narcissists wanted me to do (have sex with them, wear what they wanted me to wear, etc). 

If I understand the concept correctly, in psychology parlance, this is what is known as the "double-bind".

Bones

[Ami]

Has anyone struggled with being screwed over for being nice, but still being screwed over for standing up for yourself?

I have been told, "It's your fault. You're too nice to people."

When I do fight back, it's suddenly "No wonder people don't like you. You're such a bitch. Can't you be more nice?"

Does that make sense to anyone? It's like I don't know what to do.  Then again, I was often told I was mean when I didn't do what narcissists wanted me to do (have sex with them, wear what they wanted me to wear, etc). 

It makes sense (((NLAS))))
How to navigate it is the hard part!           xxoo  Ami

[Sealynx]

NLAS,
I think this is where trial, error and self forgiveness have a big place. Also note that someone else's not liking the fact that we just stood up for ourselves does not equal being wrong! Sometimes they did certain things that were wrong because we let them and they don't like seeing the "rules of the game" changed to reflect the truth. Will a person content to violate some aspect of a relationship just "flip a switch" when you bust them and apologize? Not likely!!

When it comes to the real screw-ups...
We were not allowed to screw up in our family and screwing up could happen even when we took all the right measures to please a normal person. As an adult, I had to learn to say sorry and let that be enough when something didn't go well. Needless to say we are hyper-sensitive to the guilt from screw-ups. While the person we offended may be angry for a moment, our punishment of self can last for weeks.

For a normal person, "I'm sorry", or if we don't agree, "I'm sorry you feel that way", is all the acknowledgment we owe their feelings. After that we can take note of their preference and whether it is asking so much of us that we no longer wish to be around them.

[Ami]

You know how we are so kind, gracious and giving to other people. Why don't we be this way with ourselves? I am seeing the wisdom in this.
 I am getting a self and you all know better than anyone what a long time in coming that was!      xxoo  Ami

[Ales2]

Heart - I really resonate with what you said about being NICE. One of my weaknesses is the fear of people saying I'm not NICE, but agree completely, thats its not a virtue, it may in fact be dishonest.  A personal coach friend of mine gave a talk and asked what are the hard things for me to do (its called the hero question) - and they were - stand up for myself; be assertive w/ boundaries and RISK not being NICE. 

Nolonger - your post also resonates with me. I totally understand the double bind of being nice vs. being assertive. With the criticism you got though, its obvious they are going to fight you regardless of which stance you take (they are the troublemakers, not you). But in the long term, standing up is the better way to go because if your needs piss them off, you are better knowing sooner than later. And, you wont have to take back ground you should have asserted in the first place.

This is a great topic! Thanks!

[bearwithme]

Heart - I really resonate with what you said about being NICE. One of my weaknesses is the fear of people saying I'm not NICE, but agree completely, thats its not a virtue, it may in fact be dishonest.  A personal coach friend of mine gave a talk and asked what are the hard things for me to do (its called the hero question) - and they were - stand up for myself; be assertive w/ boundaries and RISK not being NICE. 

Nolonger - your post also resonates with me. I totally understand the double bind of being nice vs. being assertive. With the criticism you got though, its obvious they are going to fight you regardless of which stance you take (they are the troublemakers, not you). But in the long term, standing up is the better way to go because if your needs piss them off, you are better knowing sooner than later. And, you wont have to take back ground you should have asserted in the first place.

This is a great topic! Thanks!

THERE IS A GOD!!  And it's this board!!

Swimmer: Thank you for creating this.  I feel you did this for me, today.  I needed this today and how'd you know it??

Ami wrote:

I think that if we want to be liked by others more than like  ourselves,  predator types pick that up . Predator types are waiting for prey. If we LOOK like prey, we are in line for being road kill . Confident people will not prey on you only weak  people .      xxx ooo  Am

This said it! This is true and now I wonder what other people think of the "weak person" and do they KNOW that person is "weak."  Ami: I have a sister-in-law who loves to attack me when my guard is down (so it seems). She knows I'm nicer than nice and when I'm not looking, she let's me have it.   But she is seen in the family (my husband's family) as such a great, smart wonderful person.  They all talk about her as "tough as nails" or "she's so incredibly pragmatic and 'tells it like it is'".  If she's NOT confident, then why do people say that she is?  I have to think that they don't see the evil side of her because SIL likes the family and wants to belong.  SIL wants to push me out!

Ales2:  Sticking up for myself at the appropriate times is the biggest problem I have.  It eats away at my core.  To RISK not being NICE, for me, is like jumping out of a plane without a parachute.  It defies my logic.  I have worked on this since I went to therapy 8 years ago.  I need the tools to be assertive with boundaries and oh how I try.  I feel this has to do with quick thinking in a situation that calls on you to stick up for yourself or to be assertive.  I suffer from "slow thinking."  AFTER THE FACT, I pound my head saying, "why didn't I say this, or, why didn't I say that?"  And then I beat myself up over not sticking up for myself and allowing my voice to be 'heard.'

It's not like I don't know what "sticking up for myself" is all about, it's just my timing.  How can I put the "after the fact" thoughts in to play when I need to?? 

Bear