picking partners

[satori]

in the past few days I've read through dozens of threads.  this is an amazing community.  the respect and empathy I see displayed here I've seen only one other place, the empathy board I frequent.

anyhow, my divorce was final yesterday after nearly a year of seperation.  I've spent a lot of time this year thinking about my patterns in relationships.  it seems I've only been involved with outright n's or people with n-traits ingrained in areas that were real dealbreakers for me (like the guy who was quite loving in many ways but in others was unable to see my feelings as valid).

I am aware of some n-traits in myself and I try very hard to make sure I don't negatively impact my children.  as the child of divorced parents with varying degrees of n-traits (my dad moreso than my mother) emotional negation and neglect were my main influences.  for example, during a time I was staying with my father he left me alone for days on end (I was eight).  my mother never knew.  I make sure that I know how my kids are being cared for regardless of whether they're with me.  another example:  my mother used to read her book and not interact with us when she took us out to eat.  I certainly wouldn't do that because I know it hurt my feelings.  BUT, I didn't realize that watching tv together at dinner might have the same effect... so I work to recognise these things that I might have blind spots for.  and I try to cut myself some slack when I do.  I'm trying to do better, rather than feel guilty (which would lessen my ability to function well).

SO, I had a brief relationship last month with someone I had known for a very long time.  he turned out to be probably the best worst example ever.  I'm now taking anti-depressants after expencing a huge depression.

it's been my experience that the men I've been involved with have not shown these n-traits during the dating period.  either that or I dont' know what to look for.  or maybe I don't want to see.

what do you do to try to avoid forming new n-relationships?  what do you look for?

[bunny]

satori,

Kudos to you for noticing some behavior you didn't like and changing it. That takes humility and courage.

As for picking N partners, you may be interested in this article that is recommended here often, and people really like it:

http://www.drjoecarver.com/

The article is called "Identifying Losers in Relationships."

bunny

[BlueTopaz]

either that or I dont' know what to look for. or maybe I don't want to see.

what do you do to try to avoid forming new n-relationships? what do you look for?

Hi Satori...

You might have answered your own question very well.  All I can say, and from plenty of self experience (of not seeing) too, is to begin to see....    

I truly believe that there are always clues that people give out if there will be a potential serious behavioral problem.  There will always be warning signs or "red flags".  

Related to NPD specifically, having read up on it and participated in forums where N traits, behaviors, life situations are commonly discussed, I think if anything, we might be paranoid and seeing N behavior where it is not, rather than vice versa.

I think a big challenge is to really see the truth, versus what we want to see.    It adds so much to ones life when a partnership is truly right, so it is understandable why human nature is to rationalize, and look the other way, hoping we've finally found that.  

So I guess my answer to your question is listen to your intuition.  I believe it will always tell you, and quite early on, when something is really wrong within a person.

I had very serious intuitive warnings with my last dating parnter (who had N traits) as early as in the first week!   I continued to feel these warnings regularly, but ignored or rationalized them.    In the end, I stayed for a painful 5 years...

BT

[satori]

thank you SO much for the feedback, Bunny and Blue Topaz.  the article is incredibly helpful!  I spent most of the evening reading at his site... until I couldn't keep my eyes open anymore!  the depression article was very helpful as well.

looking back, you're right I can see signs I might have recognized as warining signals.  I guess I don't trust my own judgements often.  I find my intellect at war with my intuition and then I'm unsure what to do.

this summer I had a few dates with a man I've known for years, he was my son's soccer coach when he was little.  I babysat his kids.  we used to hang out in my kitchen and talk long ago when we were both married.  friends.  he'd never been anything but patient and kind around me.  then, when we were at the end of a day of taking teenagers out on the river in his boat, he came down REALLY hard on his son.  humiliated him in front of his friends.  when he walked away I put my arm around his son and said something like, "wow, I saw that differently than your dad did.  I thought you did a really good job."  BUT, I didn't stand up to the guy, and I didn't do it within his earshot.  I think all the kids and I felt shame.  the dad didn't appear remorseful... he seemed self righteous.   I bolted, and avoided his calls.

a friend of mine whose opinion I really do trust, and who is very healthy relationship wise thinks I may have been hasty.  it was one time.  one time is a mistake, an educatable mistake.  I wonder what the opinion would be here... like you say, I may be prone to overreacting.  I'm not even sure if I can be friends with this guy now, and that may be an overreaction, though I'm not sure that ending the dating part was.

[bunny]

a friend of mine whose opinion I really do trust, and who is very healthy relationship wise thinks I may have been hasty.  it was one time.  one time is a mistake, an educatable mistake.  I wonder what the opinion would be here... like you say, I may be prone to overreacting.  I'm not even sure if I can be friends with this guy now, and that may be an overreaction, though I'm not sure that ending the dating part was.

My feedback: your friend in this case is cutting him far too much slack. If a man humiliates his son in front of people, it's NOT a one-time mistake. He probably does it all the time. And he shouldn't even do it once. He bullies his own child. His red flag behavior is straight out of that article ("frightening temper"). I'm afraid a friendship with him wouldn't work. What do you have in common that could override this awful abuse of his son?

bunny

[satori]

you're right... thanks for reinforcing my intuition.  I have lost so much confidence in it lately.  there is NOTHING that can ameliorate that abuse!  once is too much!  thank you.  really, thank you.

[guest of the evening]

I'm right there with you - don't really trust my judgment in picking partners now - going through a divorce - congratulations on the finalization of yours!

Been dating a guy for 6 weeks or so - really like him.  Don't exactly know what i'm looking for in a man yet.  It's so confusing.  Dating post divorce is like auditioning for a partner.  French restauran dates are fine and well, but what i'm really wondering is does he do dishes?  And, how does he handle conflict?  I just want to jump to these real life situations.  And, you're right - most people don't show this during dating!  Well, my guy does not really do dishes - hasn't really offered to help when he's been over for dinner and after a dinner party.  this bothers me.  What does this show about him?  That he's selfish?  Doesn't care about my needs (about not over taxing me with work) - am I paranoid about the symbolism of his not doing dishes?  Also, he helped himself to a piece of cake the other night at my house and didnt offer to bring me any.  This bothers me - how can you tell if someone just doesn't think or if he's selfish and inconsiderate?  this guy's dad left when he was very young and his mom became senile early so maybe he just didn't have role models.  I'm really rambling, but this how do you pick partners thread really brings up issues!

thanks,

[Anonymous]

Well, my guy does not really do dishes - hasn't really offered to help when he's been over for dinner and after a dinner party. this bothers me. What does this show about him? That he's selfish? Doesn't care about my needs (about not over taxing me with work) - am I paranoid about the symbolism of his not doing dishes?

It depends….  If he reciprocates dinner at his house and he does the dishes then that is one thing.   If that is not the case, if either he never reciprocates dinner or you help him at his place, then yes, I think it says something about him in not even offering.

Also, he helped himself to a piece of cake the other night at my house and didn’t offer to bring me any. This bothers me - how can you tell if someone just doesn't think or if he's selfish and inconsiderate?

After just 6 weeks of dating, he went into your fridge, got himself a piece of cake and did not ask you if you wanted some, or anything?

Some may disagree but I do think this was inconsiderate for sure.  I wouldn’t like it at all.  Nor would I do it in your & his situation.    

Don't exactly know what I’m looking for in a man yet. It's so confusing.  

Yes, it’s confusing, but part of the problem might be not knowing what you are looking for.  Try to write out a list of qualities that you absolutely won’t compromise on, another column of ones that you’d like but that aren’t essential, and a 3rd of ones that would indicate you need to stop seeing that person.

Having a guideline of what you want will really  help you choose better. Also— like someone else said, always trust your intuition.  If something bothers you address it with this person.  

Their reaction will tell you a world of things about the person and the potential of the relationship….  

Good luck---

[Anonymous]

Well, my guy does not really do dishes - hasn't really offered to help when he's been over for dinner and after a dinner party.  this bothers me.  What does this show about him?

It could mean he doesn't do housework, doesn't know how, is afraid of being scolded if he does it wrong; or it could mean he's entitled/selfish. What is his attitude? Lazy, spoiled, entitled, awkward, or socially unskilled?

Also, he helped himself to a piece of cake the other night at my house and didn't offer to bring me any.

It sounds like he lacks basic social skills. I wouldn't want a serious relationship with a man like this, as it would embarrass me and drive me crazy.

A good book about finding the right person is, "Are You The One For Me?" by Barbara deAngelis.

bunny

[guest of the evening]

Bunny and Guest,
About the helping himself to a piece of cake sentence, i have to clarify - I asked him if he wanted a piece of cake i'd just baked, he said yes, and then i told him to help himself.  He did not just go into my fridge, but then again, he did not offer to bring me over a piece when he cut himself one.  Thanks for the advice.  Yes, the attitude is a very important thing to notice as much as the actions.  He's not entitled, maybe he doesn't know how to work with a partner doing housework, or what - he grew up in an unusual family - dad gone and mom becoming senile.  We'll have to see - great idea to make a list of what I won't accept, what's most important and what's desirable but not dire!  Thanks!

[seeker]

Hi Guest of the Evening,

Guess I would just add that recently I was wondering if and how I would advise my daughter about what kind of guy to look for.  I think kindness would be at the top of the list.  She is in a classful of bully boys right now.  Not one of them knows how to show respect to a girl.  I say keep looking until you find a kind, strong, able guy who can listen once in a while.  Most guys rank low on communicating, but if they can muster up the effort when it counts, it goes a long way.  

Perhaps a reality check the next time you offer cake will help.  Your guy might have a few blind spots due to his parenting, but if pointed out, he may be eager to correct them.  The attitude and reaction will tell you all, as long as you are tactful as well.  Maybe he doesn't do dishes, but maybe he'll change your oil, rake your leaves or what have you.  Sometimes we girls don't like to ask...read our minds, we think.  

Just a few thoughts.  S.

[Anonymous]

About the helping himself to a piece of cake sentence, i have to clarify - I asked him if he wanted a piece of cake i'd just baked, he said yes, and then i told him to help himself. He did not just go into my fridge, but then again, he did not offer to bring me over a piece when he cut himself one

.

Thanks for making it clearer.  

In that case, since you were the one who brought up the whole cake business and told him to feel free to get it, if it were me, I'd figure if you wanted a piece you'd have said "and bring me one too if you don't mind" while you were talking about the whole thing.  Maybe he figured you didn't want one because you didn't say anything.  

He also may have felt a bit weird as a guest being the only one having a piece of the two of you and so he may not have further wanted to let the fact you were not having one stand out, by asking you.

Like the person above said, I think we (I am one) as women tend to expect men to read our minds sometimes.  

From what you explained, I'd chalk the cake incident up as harmless, be careful of the "mind reading" things, while still looking for qualities and patterns in him that would suit or would not suit you.

[guest of the evening]

Thanks guys.  Men.  Can't pick them, can't live without them, and can't shoot them.  But I guess you can do something with them if you speak your mind - tactfully of course.  

Kindness is a good trait to look for.  But kindness to others, not just apparent kindness to you.  Someone once said see how he treats the waitress, see how he treats the parking attendant, see how he treats his mom (unless of course she's an N!  ha ha).  Because how he treats others, he will eventually treat you.  Maybe bunny or seeker wrote that - i've read so many of your inciteful posts.

Here's hoping we can all find kindness and also for our kids!

[bunny]

About the helping himself to a piece of cake sentence, i have to clarify - I asked him if he wanted a piece of cake i'd just baked, he said yes, and then i told him to help himself.  He did not just go into my fridge, but then again, he did not offer to bring me over a piece when he cut himself one.

This isn't automatically narcissism. I think he believed you were inviting him to take a piece of cake. If you wanted a piece, you could have said, "Hey bring me a piece while you're at it." After he brought only his own piece, you could say, "Could you bring me one next time you're up?" No one knows what we expect or want, we have to convey it verbally most of the time.


bunny