Depression's Upside--NY Times article

[Dr. Richard Grossman]

There's an interesting article on depression and evolutionary psychology by Jonah Lehrer in the New York Times Magazine (Feb. 28, 2010).  Worth a read...

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/28/magazine/28depression-t.html?scp=4&sq=depression&st=cse


Best,

Richard

[Gaining Strength]

I started reading that article on Sunday but I found the point of view actually too painful to read through.  I am wondering if I can get through it on a second try.  Thank you for posting it here.

[Twoapenny]

I do think depression improved my life - although I never in a million years would have said that at the time.  But I had to really look at myself to figure out why I kept getting ill.  My diet was a mess, I drank too much, I didn't take enough exercise, I had lots of really unhealthy relationships, low self esteem, and I didn't do anything in my life just for me - everything was about 'achieving' and having things that other people would see that would make them think I was successful.

A lot has changed for me - my lifestyle is completely different, I don't spend time with people who criticise me and put me down, I spend a lot more time out doors and wandering around the woods than I ever used to, I cook good food and I'm a lot more selective about who I spend time with.  I don't know if any of that would have happened if I hadn't gotten so low that I couldn't function any more.  But I've never forgotten that feeling of wanting to die and if you're down that low it's very hard to climb back up again.

[sKePTiKal]

Thanks, Dr G! This fed a theory I was ruminating on... about depression.

Giving drugs to someone who's depressed because of a life event - say losing a job - is inappropriate to me. They are justifiably depressed; the feeling or lack thereof is normal and maybe part of the whole healing process and this type of depression needs to be defined differently than a biologically based version. Talking it through and helping someone with the mental processing, IMHO, is more appropriate... because it is actively working toward a solution to a manageable issue. Drugs, to my way of thinking, only mask the pain and keep the druggee comfortable - passively.

That said - I still believe that drugs can be useful when someone is completely immobilized and can't function in their daily life. TEMPORARILY. While the process of working on a solution begins. Where my dislike comes in, is the idea that once on a drug for a temporary situation - you're on it for life, because of a normal, intense, temporary reaction to a specific life event.

What I found helpful in the article, is the idea that the obsession with going over & over the details (ruminating) might actually serve a purpose. I propose that some of these details contain emotional "markers" - a stimulant to a specific emotion and it's co-existing thoughts - that require time spent with the emotion and the thoughts to adequately process them.

Another idea, is that when the number of "details" or variables in a situation is relatively large - the brain requires sorting, organizing, and categorizing time (time to assemble all the puzzle pieces) - before inspiration strikes about how they fit together and begin to read a whole "picture" that is comprehensible to the visual parts of the brain - when for instance we talk about "seeing" the "big picture". It takes glimpses of the "big picture" for me - before solutions and creativity arise in my mind. In ruminating, I think one is "too close" to each detail (emotionally?) to begin to assemble the image of that big picture. Without assistance.

In general, I am glad that the idea of depression having a useful purpose is starting to get noticed. That it may be a temporary state much more often than is commonly accepted, also. Perhaps this will inspire some better definition of the different kinds of depression - at least into those two types (I think there's probably more...).

[CB123]

Dr. Grossman,

I read that article, too, and it really clicked with me.  I dont know if it is true across the board (but the research suggests that it is pretty much so) but I have about come to that conclusion about myself.  One thing I realize: if I can stand outside my moodiness and call it what it is (NOT my total identity), I can manage it. 

It has taken me awhile to dig this out, but for me depression is thwarted creativity.  When I feel unable to express myself in some way, I feel desperate.  I think that's what attracted me to this board, initially:  its called a "voicelessness" board.  That was the way I characterized myself when I first came.  Now I realize that almost NO one is voiceless.  We may speak in different ways, perhaps not verbally, but we all have something to say and we say it.  I think perhaps I felt frustration and depression when I came because I couldnt express myself verbally to the people that I THOUGHT it was vital to have understand me.  Being depressed and backed into a corner actually forced me to use my creativity to speak. 

So I see the depression/creativity connection...also I get what the author says about "rumination".  I am a MASTER at rumination.  The same day that I read this article, I read one about sleeplessness.  What I realized is that it is the same thing--I cant stop ruminating. When I fall asleep in exhaustion, I sleep just enough to give my brain the energy to go back to ruminating and it wakes me up!  The article about sleep said that people who fall asleep and wake up right away, have a brain that is asking "did you go to sleep yet?  Are you going to wake up?  If you wake up, will you get back to sleep?  How will you feel in the morning if you dont go back to sleep?"  Sheesh. 

Last night I tried the exercise for counting backward.  Made the mistake of starting at 100 and when I got to 50, I started wondering what I would do when I got to 0 before I got to sleep!  So I started over at 500.  At 349, I just got up and turned on the light and reading.  I just told myself how lucky I was to get 3 hours of uninterrupted time.  I went to sleep eventually and woke up feeling pretty good.  I think it is that same rumination and what if?  oh, no! that accumulates and makes me depressed.  If I turn all that creative thinking somewhere more productive and feel much much better.

Strength, hang in there...I think the article was actually very positive but quite long.  Maybe read the end first?  I was really affirmed by it.

Love
CB

[HeartofPilgrimage]

I've been there too. And have been asking myself, would I sacrifice my passions, my creativity, my drive, my intensity in life for always being on an even keel emotionally? Because I think that the same things that bring on depression also deliver good things to my door.

I hate being depressed. It's this awful "everything is out of sorts, nothing is right or in its right place" sense that envelops all of life. But I would equally hate a milk toast existence.

One of the things I do that tips me over into depression is take too much on my plate. I stress myself out and then crash. But would I trade that for living a very careful, never-draw-outside-the-lines existence? No. I would just like to come to the place where I can recognize I'm overtaxing myself --- BEFORE I crash.

[Twoapenny]

I've been there too. And have been asking myself, would I sacrifice my passions, my creativity, my drive, my intensity in life for always being on an even keel emotionally? Because I think that the same things that bring on depression also deliver good things to my door.

HoP, I think what you've said there is so important.  I remember being with my therapist once in the midst of a terrible depression, crying my eyes out and saying that it was so unfair on my son, he ought to have a mum who didn't get depressed.  My T said "he might prefer to have a mum who is intelligent, thoughtful, compassionate and who loves him dearly and who sometimes gets depressed, than a mum whose mood is always the same but doesn't have all your good qualities too".  She really made me think about it being alright to have aspects of a personality that aren't exactly as you like them and that maybe you wouldn't have the really good bits without some of the less good stuff as well.

[teartracks]

Hi,

I find this part (top of page 6) of the article more in line with my personal experience than any of the other ideas put forth.  

Thomson describes a college student who was referred to his practice. “It was clear that this patient was in a lot of pain,” Thomson says. “He couldn’t sleep, couldn’t study. He had some family issues” — his parents were recently divorced — “and his father was exerting a tremendous amount of pressure on him to go to graduate school. Because he’s got a family history of depression, the standard of care would be to put him on drugs right away. And a few years ago, that’s what I would have done.”


Instead, Thomson was determined to help the student solve his problem. “What you’re trying to do is speed along the rumination process,” Thomson says. “Once you show people the dilemma they need to solve, they almost always start feeling better.” He cites as evidence a recent study that found “expressive writing” — asking depressed subjects to write essays about their feelings — led to significantly shorter depressive episodes. The reason, Thomson suggests, is that writing is a form of thinking, which enhances our natural problem-solving abilities. “This doesn’t mean there’s some miracle cure,” he says. “In most cases, the recovery period is going to be long and difficult. And that’s what I told this young student. I said: ‘I know you’re hurting. I know these problems seem impossible. But they’re not. And I can help you solve them.’ ”

I think I remember that the article also alluded to some who viewed the ruminating cycle in a positive light for the effect it had on improving the overall mental health of the person... not sure, but my puter is acting up and I don't want to lose this part.  May come back for an edit.

tt
PS  One feature of my ruminating experience was that once it was over, I felt confident that I'd never have to do it again at least not with the intensity that accompanied it the first 3-4 years.   

[sKePTiKal]

Heart - I used to believe (oh the power of myth) that if I gave up my version of depression I'd lose my "creative powers". That ideas simply wouldn't occur to me anymore, because I saw the alternative to depression as some sort of blissful, idiotic la-la land. Where ideas and unique solutions simply wouldn't matter - because if people are already "happy" - then motivation evaporated. In my vocabulary, this belief might've been a continuation of "kid logic"... or it might've been a projection; another "us/them" scenario from my Nmom... and it should've been a "temporary", life-event based type of depression; but it wasn't because there wasn't anyone to help me see the big picture, back then...

... so I was "left alone" to come to my senses; exiled; buried in a dark, tentatively "safe" place...

... where I developed/presented a depressed "mask" to Nmom to protect and be able to escape into my "other world" of make-believe fairy-tales where mothers were kind, cared about what you were interested in, and helped you magically create your own "magic kingdom" - your own life. Like some genie - the mask took over eventually and I lost my way back to the magic kingdom.

After the mask took over, you'd have had to pry that world/life view from my dead cold hands... I was SO identified with it; it was ME.

Well, I was wrong. At least, I've endured risking stepping outside of that world view enough to realize that I was wrong. The ideas are still there. I won't say I have as much need-based, driven motivation anymore (my intuition tells me that the drive to express myself creatively just might've been garden-variety lonliness - a need to express myself to say: hey- I exist!) to create - but I have a lot more energy to create. It's no longer a desperate, driven, need to create... it's shifted to a "what if I did this... and maybe if I tried this..." playful dancing "the results don't matter" type of motivation. And I do it more often - less in traditional creative materials; more in ordinary day to day life. At least, right now.

For me, creativity is right brained - free of the process enough to imagine what might be; but respectful and interested enough in the left-brained process-based how-to - to try to figure out how the two can collaborate and "make it so". **

Depression for me, is when r-brain is so overwhelmed with details - drowning in them - or in imagined emotional consequences/fears - that it forgets - or is too busy & preoccupied (ruminating) - to access the step-by-step, patient, plodding "how-to" part of my brain.

I think that depression just a bit different for everyone... experienced a bit differently and different things going on... but there are also some tantalizing commonalities, that don't really resolve into a definable, repeatable (and therefore predictable) pattern. So it's possible to troubleshoot it - after the fact; but it's not possible to design a "rule" or prescriptive behavior to prevent it because life is infinitely variable and so are people. What throws me into a tailspin spiraling down into doom/gloom is shrugged off by the next person. And vice versa.

** Then, there is depression from biological reasons - like stroke victim's depression. This is a different set of variables (again, tho' lots of similarities). Being with my MIL who has recovered from a major stroke and may have had another TIA recently that left her physically voiceless for a time has given me a lot of things to think about, on this topic. I observe; we communicate on the topic; I advocate for her as best I can and try to stay on top of the gradual, subtle changes that are going on. I'm not always right - I believed that she simply had laryngitis, as her GP did. She had a paralyzed vocal cord; most likely due to a small stroke. Our different situations can sometimes shed light and offer inspiring "ways out" of each other's predicaments.

[HeartofPilgrimage]

Thanks, PR. I think that my depression is definitely biologically based --- there are just too many OTHER central nervous system problems both in my family and myself (migraines, sleep disorders, etc.) for me not to believe that some of the depression that runs in our family is not based in biology. However, I also think that over the years, having a biological predisposition to depression (to which one of the cognitive components = excessive guilt) makes a family more vulnerable to marrying Ns (who won't take responsibility for ANY of their antics!) and then all kinds of social things come into play to perpetuate it and make it worse. The depression runs in my father's family, and my mother is the N person in my life.

I don't think that depression in and of itself has any good component ... because to me the depression is the mood problems, the feeling that nothing is right and never will be, the exhaustion, the lack of motivation. But I do think that the characteristics that lead some of us into depression (ability to think about things deeply, to feel deeply, to be introspective, to take responsibility) can be very good. The trick is to use and enjoy those characteristics to their fullest but also recognize when "thinking deeply" turns into "rumination", when "feeling deeply" is mostly about "feeling negatively", etc. and to learn how to break out of that cycle. I'll bet there are lots of people out there that have the good side of this cluster of attributes, who have never gotten depressed. It seemed to me that the article referenced was about "being with" the depression so that one could pay attention to whatever it was the depression was saying to the person ... so that the person could come out on the other side!

I am working on "radical acceptance" ... recognizing and being at peace with things I cannot change, but at the same time not giving into the despairing belief that things will NEVER change.  Part of the radical acceptance process for me is to accept my tendency to get depressed ... without giving up on hope that someday it will be different. Radical acceptance (to me) means to quit kicking myself for the depression, and give myself permission to carry on even through the depression.

It is what it is ... I just love that phrase. It sounds inane if you have never found yourself beating your head against the proverbial brick wall, but if you are a head-banger like me, you find the simple phrase "it is what it is" liberating.

[teartracks]

Hi PR,

Just a thought...MIL's speech loss could be Aphasia.

Aphasia is caused by damage to one or more of the language areas of the brain. Many times, the cause of the brain injury is a stroke. A stroke occurs when blood is unable to reach a part of the brain. Brain cells die when they do not receive their normal supply of blood, which carries oxygen and important nutrients. Other causes of brain injury are severe blows to the head, brain tumors, brain infections, and other conditions that affect the brain.

tt

[sKePTiKal]

Hi tt - hope you're feelin' good today -

my Dad had the Aphasia version of "voicelessness"; MIL's was definitely a mechanical issue - imaging showed that one vocal cord didn't move to contact the other one during swallowing or trying to speak. Immediately after treatment - sort of a botox-like injection - she was able to talk again. But it was as if she had a "frog in her throat". A week later now: the quality of her voice is changing - she sounds different. Not sure yet how I'd describe it.

Heart:

I am working on "radical acceptance" ... recognizing and being at peace with things I cannot change, but at the same time not giving into the despairing belief that things will NEVER change.  Part of the radical acceptance process for me is to accept my tendency to get depressed ... without giving up on hope that someday it will be different. Radical acceptance (to me) means to quit kicking myself for the depression, and give myself permission to carry on even through the depression.

It is what it is ... I just love that phrase. It sounds inane if you have never found yourself beating your head against the proverbial brick wall, but if you are a head-banger like me, you find the simple phrase "it is what it is" liberating.

I loved this! From one "headbanger" to another... much good luck to you! Radical acceptance sounds sorta like what I've been doing as I've fumbled my way along; thanks for coining the phrase!

[lighter]

Thanks for providing that, Dr. G: )

Very interesting.
 
Mo2

[Hopalong]

Depression for me, is when r-brain is so overwhelmed with details - drowning in them - or in imagined emotional consequences/fears - that it forgets - or is too busy & preoccupied (ruminating) - to access the step-by-step, patient, plodding "how-to" part of my brain.

PR, thanks for this.

ADD doesn't help one access the accomplishing inner ox, but the drowning r-brain I can so relate to. I've been saying to people lately, "I'm in ox mode."

That was just a great description for me.

xo
Hops

[Portia]

Thanks Dr G, that article made sense to me (once I found the time to sit and read it!)

Amber:

Drugs, to my way of thinking, only mask the pain and keep the druggee comfortable - passively.

I tend to agree with you and think they can be useful/important short-term. Now I'm thinking about a particular person I know in real life and her use of drugs. It seems that she blames her 'depression' on her brain functions (caused by life events which she can also blame) and can therefore avoid taking any responsibility for her own mental state. Denial I guess and the belief, or desire, to never need to address herself, avoidance of looking inwards - 'it's not my fault; I'm helpless'. Now: if this works for her, and the drugs allow her to continue in this way, then it would seem there is a case for long term use - where the person doesn't want to change.

Based on that idea, I'm wondering if the increase in drug use (and the variety available) is meeting an increasing need (although probably not by design). And I think I'm making a flimsy case for long-term drug-use (even if it's a placebo effect), although I really don't like the idea...