Author Topic: What if you are too?  (Read 2530 times)

wondering

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What if you are too?
« on: October 26, 2004, 10:56:19 PM »
Hopefully those who are still getting hurt by the comments of their families have figured out that it doesn't matter what you do, say, or look like because it isn't about you.  They automatically criticize because they're on auto-pilot emulating how THEIR families treated them.  

Many post that they're looking for a mate who isn't narcissistic and will give them voice.  What if YOU are also on auto-pilot and emulate how you were treated and don't always recognize that you're doing it?  

Your family is how they are because of how they were raised.  Being raised within that same dysfunctional family means being programmed with the same reactions and behaviors that you are trying to avoid.

Having experienced being involved with a Narcissist or a succession of them  may indicate being an "inverted" or "covert" Narcissist.  Maybe those behaviors also flow from you, especially when you're not feeling heard.  

Has anyone else considered that perhaps WE are not that easy to live with or perhaps should even not get involved in relationships until we are certain that we are no longer critical, we truly know how to listen, and we aren't looking to someone else to fill our own neediness?

Because the feedback from a person with NPD is not accurate and being aware of what we say and do doesn't come naturally, to most it can be difficult to tell how WE really are in a relationship.  This is especially true when we're so focused on how THEY are treating US.  

My relationships with other Inverted Narcissists have been far more loving than the ones with men with NPD.  The challenge is not being depressed at the same time and supporting each other when one is.

By the way, intellectually deciding you are happy and everything is fine can cover the fact that EMOTIONALLY you are actually depressed and don't really know how you feel about much of anything.

Wildflower

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What if you are too?
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2004, 01:15:17 AM »
Thanks for posting this, wondering.  I read this after my own post and I really appreciated it.  

Quote from: wondering
Because the feedback from a person with NPD is not accurate and being aware of what we say and do doesn't come naturally, to most it can be difficult to tell how WE really are in a relationship. This is especially true when we're so focused on how THEY are treating US.


This is such a great point! :idea:  It's so true.  Those of us who grew up with N's were robbed of meaningful mirrors weren't we?

Thank you!

Wildflower
If you want to sing out, sing out
And if you want to be free, be free
'Cause there's a million ways to be, you know that there are
-- Cat Stevens, from the movie Harold and Maude

satori

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What if you are too?
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2004, 01:54:04 AM »
I'd like to understand.  could you explain what you mean by introverted N?

Kiba Jin not logged in

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Re: What if you are too?
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2004, 02:53:13 AM »
Quote from: wondering

Has anyone else considered that perhaps WE are not that easy to live with or perhaps should even not get involved in relationships until we are certain that we are no longer critical, we truly know how to listen, and we aren't looking to someone else to fill our own neediness?


Yes absolutley. I haven't been in a relationship for two or more years now and have no plans to do so until I have a better handle on my problems. Same for kids. I would not say 'no way, never" on kids, but kids are way to big a responsiblitiy to take lightly and I absolutley would not want to inflict the family curse on the beings who should mean most to me in the world.  So no love life/ no kids is working great for me. Besides, I'm still finding out who 'me' is and I want to do that on my own; I have the ingrained habit of being whoever the significant other wants me to be and taking a submissive role in the relationship. Definately want to get a handle on those two.  Sure I get a little lonely from time to time, but it beats my previous crappy, neediness-filled fiasco relationships.  Plus there's no more being puppeted by Nmom on the relationship front; she seems to have given up on grandkids or marriage from me (the eldest) and not spends her time focusing on  my younger sister and boyfriend for those -- yuck.

KJ (the spinster)
 :D

wondering

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Inverted Narcissism
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2004, 03:20:54 AM »
Satori,

See http://samvak.tripod.com/faq66.html to understand why some of us attract Narcissistic men - usually because our relationship with our Fathers.

wondering

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Children and relationships
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2004, 03:32:09 AM »
Quote
Plus there's no more being puppeted by Nmom on the relationship front; she seems to have given up on grandkids or marriage from me (the eldest)


I am also the oldest.

The one thing I always knew made me feel fear was having children.  To this day I have an aversion to all things related to pregnant women although not to infants.  

I was so miserable as a child that I didn't want to have children.  I also felt so responsible for everything that I couldn't imagine not watching the child every second of every day and worrying that something might happen to them.  (Fortunately I have outgrown that!)  

I didn't know any of what I know now back then and I sometimes wonder if perhaps those feelings were imprinted upon me from how my Mother felt when she was carrying me.  

I had my tubes tied at 25 (and, alas, again at 40 due to an ectopic pregnancy).  I have never regretted that decision.  There are so many children who are not heard in their lives that we can impact by listening.

bunny

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Re: What if you are too?
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2004, 02:34:18 PM »
Quote from: wondering
Has anyone else considered that perhaps WE are not that easy to live with or perhaps should even not get involved in relationships until we are certain that we are no longer critical, we truly know how to listen, and we aren't looking to someone else to fill our own neediness?


Good point, I agree completely. It took a few therapists to point out to me that my behavior was part of the problem and that I needed to be more sensitive to how I impacted others. I was certainly confronted about it in couples therapy. The difference between me and a severe narcissist was that I heard the feedback and did something about it.

bunny

findingme

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« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2004, 10:23:26 AM »
Wildflower & wondering -

Excellent posts on survival mechanisms & looking at N traits in yourself.  How bold!  I have recently come to the uncomfortable conclusion that I do have some of these unpalatabe traits & am having to wade through that mess.  As a counselor told me last year: whenever you focus on anyone too much, no matter how hurtful, you inevitably emulate this person in ways you don't even see (especially when in our young, "imprinting" stage).  He also told me that no one escapes being raised by an N w/o developing some of those traits.   (ouch!)

I think it is helpful to validate ourselves through sharing stories about our Ns.  I have appreciated that aspect of the board.  But when we get to the point of true self-examination, & trying to become more self-aware, I think that is when we actually made real progress & start to overcome our past.  You both have made some very bold steps & shared them, which has helped me (otherwise I might just feel too ashamed & not look at the behaviors).  Thank you.  I hope this thread will continue.     fm

wondering

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New insights
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2004, 05:38:44 PM »
I just had a revelation last night regarding a persistent behavior I've been working on for years.  I mention it here in case it may be helpful for others.

If like me you have a tendency to interrupt others when having conversations I thought you might find this very interesting, especially if you have made progress and only find yourself interrupting others once in a while.

It suddenly occurred to me that a very good reason we would have developed that habit is to try to stop one of those emotionally draining "speeches" the Narcisssist subjected us to or because of our need to be heard.

Ironically it is usually someone with Narcissistic traits who will point out to us that we interrupted them.  And the very reason we did is that they are unaware of THEIR tendency to monopolize the conversation to the point where they are "presenting" and we are "listening" almost all the time.  

Anyone who has been on the receiving end of a person with NPD who insists they are never listened to while they talk "AT YOU" on and on and on with no end in sight will know what I mean.  

If that speech includes their usual emotionally abusive statements and/or third degree, accusations, etc. is it any wonder we learned to interrupt when someone is talking?

(Note that it DOESN'T WORK on someone with NPD - trying to stem the dumping will increase it or cause it to become more abusive.  This is a good way to tell whether someone is truly suffering from NPD or just has narcissistic tendencies).  

Here are some tips to help you tell if the person has NPD or may be able to work on their narcissistic traits:

You explain your needs very clearly or tell them that you do not want them to do something they are doing repeatedly.  A person with NPD will either not acknowledge your request OR they may agree to accept it and then ignore it.  

For example, you clearly tell someone that you do not want them to wake you up, but no matter how many times you tell them firmly and no matter how many times they promise they won't they do it again and again.

Or you tell them that you will not give them money.  You make them promise not to ask you for a check they will "cover" by tonight, tomorrow, whatever.  You can even get the promise in writing.  But the very same day, next day, next time you see them they're asking again.  

Other obvious signs are:

They interrupt what you're doing constantly.

They insist on having your total undivided attention for long periods of time while they talk at you incessantly.  Forget about trying to do whatever you're doing and listen at the same time.

They do not want to hear and will become abusive if you try to bring up anything they do not want to think or hear about especially anything to do with getting them to actually fulfill their promises.

They do things for you with the obvious expectation that you will react in a certain way.  If you fail to provide the feedback they want they will display a variety of attention getting behaviors including sulking, whining, berating you for not appreciating how wonderful they are to you or dramatic physical jestures.  

[Note that what they did "for you" is not really "for you" and may not even be something you want done; they do if for the feeling they hope to get from your expected reaction.]

They have an enormous sense of entitlement which often makes their behavior in conflict with your sense of integrity and honesty.  They may take inconsequental things and be unable to see that you consider it stealing.  They insist on getting special treatment and special prices wherever they go.  

They want to be waited on hand and foot.  Even more telling they may TELL YOU they DON'T want you waiting on them and then become nasty or start their attention getting behaviors whenever you don't automatically do it.  

They will complain about things that appear to be parroted from their parent's relationship.  For example, even though you have no idea when they'll be back or whether they have eaten or not you will be criticized for not having dinner on the table.  They'll ask if you've eaten and if you have reply with something like "it must be nice that YOU get to eat and I went hungry" even if they've been gone all day as though it is your fault.

They want to do things that are "larger than life" and avoid "ordinary" things like making a living.  They may go out of their way with huge efforts to help someone but never contribute to their own support.  

They exaggerate to make themselves or you sound better.  There will be frequent inconsistencies in what they say. If you question those inconsistencies they will insist YOU are wrong or even CRAZY or INSANE.

They promise the moon and start big projects so that you aren't likely to get rid of them because of the mess you'd have to clean up that they keep promising to finish.

People with NPD are like lottery tickets.  They deliver just enough to keep you hanging on hoping to recoup some of your investment in them.  They may treat you like you're a pump, "priming" you with thoughtful gestures or gifts and immediately trying to use that to get something from you.

If you ask them to leave they will act like they are going to leave you, make a big production about how they're the victim, or how much you're losing if they leave, or even agree to leave.

They may even leave for a while but they'll be back.  They may even act as though the discussion never happened and everything is just as it was before you asked them to leave.

That is probably one of the most obvious symptoms - denial and refusal to live in "reality".  They believe what they want regardless of what happens around them.

Based on my having tried every tactic I can think of to modify how I am treated by a person who has all of the above with no success I have concluded that if they will not acknowledge or change that it is probably not possible.

[Note that they may TEMPORARILY agree to work on issues or promise to finally help support themselves or anything else they think will get them their way they don't mean it and they don't REALLY believe in changing themselves.  They want what they want when they want it and have NO capacity to care AT ALL what you desire.]

If you recognize someone in the comments above consider getting out as quickly as possible.  You will probably have to disappear - and do a good job when you do or they'll find you again.

One great way to avoid these types in the future is to see how they treat any children they may have.  If they are not putting their children first, not paying child support, making commitments to a child they do not keep, always have excuses why something didn't happen and always insisting it is never THEIR fault - it is always something outside of them that is the cause - AVOID THAT PERSON.  

Even if you feel empathy for them do not get involved with them.  There is NO excuse for not putting your child's needs first.  

If anything they say or do conflicts with your own sense of right and wrong or integrity, consider that a huge red flag.

Be someone who is responsible for themselves and only get involved with someone who is responsible.