Author Topic: Llike N Mother, Like N Daughter, Like Co-D Father  (Read 3666 times)

Hopalong

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Re: Llike N Mother, Like N Daughter, Like Co-D Father
« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2010, 10:14:17 AM »
Hi Sun...

Just had another thought about your Dad...don't know if it's helpful but it struck me.

Your father never had a father. So he literally had no core model in his mind for how to be one.
But what he did have, as his polestar and survival center of his existence for his entire conscious memory...was a mother.

So it makes such psycho-sense that he's locked onto your mother as a 2 y/o would be to his mother, even more intensely than normal, in a frightening universe in which the father had vanished....

I can't imagine anything other than fear, under his resistance to therapy, that blind swatting it away.

I imagine it has felt to you as though he's swatted you away, too, for a long, long time. But I think it is just the buried toddler terror in him. It made him. Shaped him. And that's why he is the way he is with her.

Such a sad vision. But if it's the truth...there's some comfort in knowing why the reality is. That is NO way is it about you. It's not personal to you ("I will reject my daughter as undeserving of a father's love..."). I don't think your father could even have such a coherent thought about rejection, or depression, or family dynamics.

He's got one dynamic going. UNSAFE without HER. (His tiny self, his father vanished, pre-memory...his mother his only safety and perhaps in her shock she was not very tender with him, but she was there...he must have been a desperate little two-year-old, and over the years it hardened into this mindless clutching to your mother...)

I don't think he knows what he's doing, or what he's left undone. I think his fear still roars and he can't hear you.

I don't think it's rejection, it's his limitation.

Just as if you met a dog at a pound that had been through something as a puppy that permanently changed its potential nature. And it would never be a normal dog, or love in a normal way.

love,
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

sunblue

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Re: Llike N Mother, Like N Daughter, Like Co-D Father
« Reply #16 on: May 30, 2010, 01:53:12 PM »
Hi Hops:

Thanks again for the thoughtful post.  In some respects you are right.  My dad was raised by a very domineering mother...who I'm sure loved her kids but who was ill-equipped to raise 5 children by herself.  However, my dad did have an older brother who he adored and who took on that father role.  I know my dad did not have an easy life...not at all.  He had no father; they were really poor and did not have much in life.  My heart breaks for him because of that.  I also think he was ill-prepared to have children.  My dad, I think, enjoyed the toddler stage of children's lives.  To this day, when he sees a small child in a store or somewhere, he immediately tries to get that child's attention and spends his time with them.  Even with my niece, whom he adores when she was little, he lavished attention on.  However, I think that's because children who are on that infant/toddler stage NEED that parent/grandparent.  They depend on them for everything..so it's all about that provider.  But when that child grows beyond that stage and starts to exert independence...doesn't depend on that other person for every single need, then that's when both my parents, including my dad, had trouble.  Once my niece grew beyond that stage, for example, he had no use for her (neither did my Nmom).  He never took an interest in her, never helped her with homework, etc.  The only exception was when she turned the attention on him.  He would often talk in reminiscing tones about how "remember when she was little and did this...or that?"  He never could appreciate her or myself or siblings passed that initial first stage of childhood.  He didn't know or want to be a parent during those stages...I think it was more the latter...So when attention was averted away from him (or my Nmom) and towards the child's needs, he just wouldn't have it...wouldn't participate.  I think ultimately he never wanted a relationship with anyone except my Nmom...and that was, as you say, out of fear.  He depended on her completely....and in fact, was terrified whenever myself or my brother would do or say something against her. 

So, yes, it is very very sad.  Some might say he was incapable of understanding how to be a good parent.  But..for me...based on his actions...I say he chose not to.  I say he chose the sickness that is my mother over us.  I think deep down he was an dis aware of his choice.  He just tunes the rest out.  And so, a double whammy of a loss.  He also chose to be estranged from his siblings.  Just as now, my brother an dI are estranged from my Nsis...and I am going that route when it comes to my bro who does not understand.  My Nom , not surprisingly, was estranged from her sibling.  A very, very lonely world indeed.

river

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Re: Llike N Mother, Like N Daughter, Like Co-D Father
« Reply #17 on: May 31, 2010, 07:43:22 AM »
On the other hand, GREAT, that they wont be there, now she can have a genuine time. 

(sorry, no time to read the rest of the posts, couldnt resist saying this). 

Sealynx

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Re: Llike N Mother, Like N Daughter, Like Co-D Father
« Reply #18 on: May 31, 2010, 09:33:01 AM »
Sunblue,
I think my sister is doing a great job raising my niece to both accept and understand my N mother and aunt while knowing it is fine to protect herself. Basically what she does is validate her feelings and take her side when they intrude on the child's boundaries. It is an ongoing process.

My niece is still hurt by them, but she learns that those feelings are not wrong. The last time they visited a really nice woman from church drove them the 8 hours to my sisters. My aunt got jealous because my niece seemed to be enjoying the woman (good choice) more than her (bad choice) and she insisted they go straight back to the hotel that night and not see my niece's new room until morning. My aunt was essentially punishing her for not choosing to enjoy a sick person more than a well person!! When she cried my aunt laughed and said she was "too sensitive". We've all heard that one before!! My sister sat down with her and validated her feelings of hurt and her choice of the good woman. She explained jealousy. To this day my niece texts weekly with the woman from church and they have developed a friendship.

N's should be unable to entice or control a healthy adult. If a child has to be raised around N adults, it is important that they have validation for their healthy choices and normal reactions. A child does not have to be taught to hate in order to feel free to "avoid" and should always know her mom or a healthy adult will step in when the N oversteps a boundary. I think it would be perfectly fine to tell the child that you don't get why someone so close to them would miss their graduation because it is so important to YOU. That validates what the child is feeling and gives them an ally.

What I am getting at here is that short of NC, you can't protect a child from feeling just as bad as you do around an N, but incidents like the one you describe can used as lessons about how to handle people who aren't nice, even when they are supposed to love you. It needs to be OKAY for her to feel that there is something wrong with THEIR behavior, otherwise she will blame her self. Many of us never got this OKAY and were forced to assume that part of love was putting up with hurtful behavior.

river

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Re: Llike N Mother, Like N Daughter, Like Co-D Father
« Reply #19 on: May 31, 2010, 05:56:33 PM »
Sealinx, your post blew me away just a bit, you put that so clearly.  I've copied and kept it, wanted to check with you if its ok to use it should the occasion arise?   - I dont know what occasion, but it'll be for something useful.   
If not ok, I'll just delete it.
             r. 

sunblue

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Re: Llike N Mother, Like N Daughter, Like Co-D Father
« Reply #20 on: May 31, 2010, 06:45:38 PM »
Yes, Seal, thank you for your post.  How important it is for someone to be there for these nieces and nephews and grandchildren to explain things and to say it's okay to feel what they're feeling.  My brother and his wife, also, do a fairly good job of dealing with this for my niece.  Of course, my niece, has always had a huge advantage in that she's always had many people who cherish and care about her----her parents, aunts, uncles, neighbhors, family friends.  As an only child, she's been adored since the day she came into this world.  She has always felt special.  She probably feels more confused than anything over why one set of grandparents won't be there for her special day. 

What a difference it would have made if someone had been there for us to explain it and to say what we were feeling about it was okay....But ultimately, I think the ultimate difference is whether there are any other people in your life who makes you feel special, cared about and loved.  It still doesn't take the place of the love of a grandparent, for example, but with so many other people focusing their love and attention on you.....I think it would be easier to get past it.

I have no doubt my niece will enjoy her graduation.  She will have all of her mom's family there and of course her parents, whom she adores.  I'll be there too.....but as with my own brother, I know it will be a more superficial presence.  I guess I'm there to represent my brother's side of the family....even though I know I don't hold much of a place in either of their hearts.  But at least I can say I did what I could to make her day special.  I also think how nice it would have been if someone had tried to make those occasions special for me in my life.  But no point in wondering.....I'm just happy my niece will not have the burden of being raised by Ns.  She already has a huge advantage as she begins the next state of her life.

Sealynx

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Re: Llike N Mother, Like N Daughter, Like Co-D Father
« Reply #21 on: May 31, 2010, 11:25:36 PM »
I posts\ to help my sisters here. Please keep them to refer to if they are helpful.
Sun,
My niece is an only child and my sis had her late in life so my mother is her only living grandparent at this point in time. My mother and aunt like to go visit but mostly because they are bored and when they visit my aunt just complains about how bored she is at my sisters!!...l Boredom with oneself is a real problem that no one else can fix!!

I think your niece will be fine with so many good people around her. She will learn that some of the people in your family are just strange but that you aren't and that is good...because its true!!
« Last Edit: May 31, 2010, 11:49:19 PM by Sealynx »

Hopalong

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Re: Llike N Mother, Like N Daughter, Like Co-D Father
« Reply #22 on: June 01, 2010, 10:24:45 PM »
((((((((Sun))))))))
Quote
I guess I'm there to represent my brother's side of the family....

How about you just go there to represent YOU?

Have your own experience of love and enjoyment.

Just take your own love with you, or mild enjoyment, or boredom, or whatever it is.
Just represent YOURSELF.

You don't have to be the Ambassadress of Pain.

Hopefully it's a lovely day. And you can people watch.

love,
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

sunblue

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Re: Llike N Mother, Like N Daughter, Like Co-D Father
« Reply #23 on: June 01, 2010, 10:47:43 PM »
Well, graduation night is O-V-E-R...LOL......It was fairly short.....It was a fairly small group after all, my brother and his wife, my niece's other grandmother and another aunt.  This afternoon I sent my niece a cookie bouquet with some balloons and a nice message.  It was okay....but I drove home feeling very sad.  I can feel my depression kicking in today.  I tried to keep it in touch and I think I did....took a couple of pictures with my niece, congratulated her, etc.

Then my brother proceeded to announce they had to make it a short night because they were leaving tomorrow morning for a trip to Hawaii!!!...Now I've been there a few times and it's one of my favorite places on this earth.  In fact, once I paid for my brother, his wife and my parents to go.  It turned out to be a trip enjoyed by all but me.  Unbeknowst to me, even though I made all the reservations 3 months ahead of time, my mom (with the help of my brother) went behind my back and changed the itinerary....which I didn't find out about until the day before my flight.  Then, when we arrived, my brother and his wife used the trip as their own personal second honeymoon....excluding me from many activities....

At any rate, what I really realized tonight, or perhaps reminded, was that I didn't have anyone.  One of the speakers at the graduation reminded the students that they will always have their family who loves them...and that family and friends are the most important thing.


You know, I know I've written this before, but I'm an avid fan of the show Lost...It ended very meaningfully....with the message of "letting go" and "moving on".  It also ended with the idea that those people who matter most to you in life, will be there for you in the afterlife.  (it's TV after all).  But that really, really touched me.  I realized that I could pick up and move to any state in the country and it wouldn't matter to anyone. 

But I also realized how fortunate my niece is....How I'm happy she has been raised with such love and care and attention .  How I'm glad she will have a better life than I or my brother.  Right now, I feel the deep depression setting in and trying to keep myself thinking about other things...hence this long post...so I apologize.

I know it's not healthy to do this....but I do really wonder why it is blessings just seem to flow for some and so few for others.  I can't help but think, "What did my brother do to deserve such riches in his life, such blessings...while I've struggled all my life...yet we were raised by the same N and co-d D...I guess iit's one of those little mysteries.

But I do want t oend on a positive note.  This has been a hard day for me...and I so appreciate your kind thoughts and feedback.  I am listening...I am trying to change...I am trying not to dwell on the negative....I am grateful for lall of you on this board.

Thanks you!

Hopalong

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Re: Llike N Mother, Like N Daughter, Like Co-D Father
« Reply #24 on: June 01, 2010, 11:07:05 PM »
You need a PHamily, Sun...

And deserve one.

Where are you going to go to start meeting people, opening yourself up to lots and lots of new experiences with new people?

That's where your PHamily is.

They've got a chair that will fit you just right.

hugs,
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

sunblue

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Re: Llike N Mother, Like N Daughter, Like Co-D Father
« Reply #25 on: June 02, 2010, 01:14:21 PM »
Thanks Hops...

Not sure what the PH stands for....but my guess is it's people out there who are in no way related to you by blood...LOL...Probably a good thing....I saw an interview recently where the doctor was saying that phrase, "blood is thicker than water" is just not true.  He was talking in the context of raising children and he was saying what really matters is just having people who love and care about you.

Phantastic!


Sealynx

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Re: Llike N Mother, Like N Daughter, Like Co-D Father
« Reply #26 on: June 03, 2010, 10:26:17 PM »
Sun,
I think some of dealing with the "why" we don't have wonderful lives is about upbringing. The other answer may lie in spiritual beliefs and service to others. I have used my spiritual beliefs to reason through many of these questions.