I knew this day was coming and I still can't deal

[bearwithme]

Hops & Seal:
I'm in tears.  I'm so glad I found you guys.  I'm digesting...
I'm seeing....
I'm dreaming...
I'm talking....
I'm open....
I'm mending...

Bear.

[Sealynx]

Hops and TT,
I'm just a survivor like you guys though I am the "problem solver" person friends often seek out. I came to my conclusions about survivor mechanisms about 20 years ago when I read something written on the subject about why going home for the holidays can be such a bitch to endure. The gist of it was that going home to a structured event like a holiday effectively revived old scripts, most of which were set when you were a relatively powerless adolescent and in rebellion.

So what plays out during extended visits home are these old scripts, the result of the parent and child never having set up adult scripts for interaction. In other words, it is their house so they assume they control what is going on while the "child" should "mind them". This can result in all sorts of planned events that the adult child is not given a voice in. This can be coupled with indignation when the "child" prefers a game of golf with another adult to bringing "little Mary or Jimmy" home to entertain mom and dad around the tree (like you were supposed to do as an adolescent).

In reviewing my scripts with my N, I realized that the scripts were very, very old and dated back to a time well before adolescence. It was one of the reasons that adolescence had not prepared me for adulthood. The main script was the mindless, "this is an emergency we must do it now." That is why I never thought to call friends and go out when I went home. I knew without giving it a name that my entire time would be scripted by them on an emergency basis.

While the analogy to Christmas works for many people. Our N's extend the control well beyond holiday rituals and their entire relationship with us is made up of mindless rituals we are encouraged NOT to examine. Remember N's don't feel normal emotions so they mimic a great deal. That means changing a response to one of their ritual ways of getting attention makes all hell brake loose. This kind of habitual script evolves into what I described earlier.

[bearwithme]

Sealynx wrote:

It was one of the reasons that adolescence had not prepared me for adulthood. The main script was the mindless, "this is an emergency we must do it now." That is why I never thought to call friends and go out when I went home. I knew without giving it a name that my entire time would be scripted by them on an emergency basis.

"Mindless."  Wow, that is a great word.  Although I didn't have a "home" to return to for the holidays once I left the house, each time I visited my NM, she wrote the rules.  And boy, you got me going on analyzing her last visit to my house- the one where I kicked her out.  I believe what you described in your last post, is what happened between NM and me.  She wanted me to be "mindless" on her visit!  I planned a couple of dates with my husband because NM, a.k.a. Grandma, was a built-in babysitter for us and she said she was more than happy to do so, so then my husband and I took her up on her offer and went out a few times.  We hadn't spend any time together and needed it.  Well, she turned into a beast on our third "date night."  She got snooty, picky and tempermental.  She started acting childish and petty.  The next day, I snapped.

"Mindless."  I was "mindless" under her reign.  Adolescence certainly did nothing for my ability to handle the real world as well, Sealynx.  You have given me some wonderful feedback and it helps a great deal.

I can't help but think that those of you who have been NC for some time now, have really embarked on some sort of deep "soul searching' expedition.  I know the soul searching gets heavy when you decide to go NC because you have to pull it from the bottom of the barrel, but to be NC for 3, 5, 8, 10 years and to "still feel" what you felt while moving forward, you must be closer to your "actual self."  N's have given us low self-esteem so the act of NC is pure irony.  We were trained not to "do" or "feel" so when we do "do" or "feel" it's gigantic and take us over.  Going NC and staying NC, must be part of something else inside you.

Bear

[Sealynx]

Bear,
I'm LC and have been for years. LC works for me because I pretty much have her number all the way around. I know not to mention my personal life. Even a small reference to having friends over for a meal can turn into  a diatribe about how all my friends just want to use me for food. The uniderlying issue is always that she wants to vent and be angry and is just looking for an excuse.

Like you, my sis has more issues because she has a child. NM makes constant ugly comments about my brother-in-law and wants them to leave him at Xmas and drive 10 hours, often in ice and snow to "visit". He can't go because his company is busiest at Christmas. She says she does this because she misses my neice but it is really about being able to tell her friends she has company and she always over schedules them with visits to be "shown off" to friends she deems important. Often these visits are just an attempt to insert herself into the lives of "important" people she barely knows and has no real intimacy with. It is hard to refuse to meet someone's grandchild. The fact that both my sister and neice could be killed in a car accident coming down doesn't even enter her equation.

Your mother's annoyance at baby sitting is just another example of how little they really have to give, especially to infants and children who want THEIR needs met. My mother has stormed out of the room on several occasions because my sister refused to put the TV on the "news" or "Wheel of Fortune" at a time when my neice normally watches her cartoons and the news was from a place 10 hours from anything concerning mother anyway. They are easily bored especially once the child is old enough to refuse the services THEY wish to provide. Remember that they have no ability to read the cihlds needs and respond. Unwanted services can include unwanted bathes or hair brushing the child finds invasive or offensive.

[seastorm]

You are getting some very good advice here. Things I need to hear as well.

Triangulating involves drawing in outside people to avoid dealing with a conflict directly. This is very manipulative and it is gossip. Usually it involves developing allies so that one does not have to take responsibility for any conflict. It can easily become two against one as well.  The fact that your NM is going to your husband for support is very underhanded. This is not good for your marriage and must not be fun for him at all. You can be sure she would do this with your daughter as well.

[swimmer]

Hi Bear-

I'm just catching up on this thread... I read through the first few postings and I'm going to read them all.  I just didn't want to delay in mentioning your NM is robbing you of precious time with your hubby and daughter by putting this on your plate at all.

I can speak from my experience, my mother was really pathetic when my daughter was born.  Trying to triagulate my husband, and begging for attention in many inappropriate ways.  I exploded as well, so I can understand your position there as well.  Anyone who pushes a a childs parent off the edge DOES NOT CARE about the child.  Your NM knowingly pushed your buttons, and this caused a bruis your family to heal from.  I know how it is, I feel "wrong" sometimes for keeping my NM away from my daughter, but she made a decision in her actions which doesn't instill much trust in her stability.  I need stable adults for support, and she isn't one of them.  Life is messy isn't it!!  Even though your NM is "sick", you are not the keeper to ensure she gets her grandchild experience....

Whatever you do bear, it is the right thing becaus you are doing it out of love.... It sounds like you've suffered enough. 

[Sealynx]

Bear,
I just wanted to add that it is good to snap sometimes!!! I had an issue with a friend today. I had told her NO re a request she made and then she triangulated through her partner who is about to move in with her but in truth I don't know well at this point. She essentially allowed her partner to request the same thing from me. The problem was, with someone I don't know well it could be perceived as a "Trust" issue and perhaps a little insulting.  I was not ready to go to the level with her partner yet and was put in an awkward position. I ended up allowing the partner to have the information she wanted and regretted it.

Nothing bad happened, I just got mad at my friend for putting me in a no- win situation and I let her have it this morning! What I realized is that she is much too irresponsible to be trusted. This is GOOD news. She has some N traits but most come more from being a spoiled only child.  It feels a little uncomfortable to have stood up for my boundaries but most of my concern is for the partner who has no idea what is going on and was unfairly encouraged in this matter.

I didn't feel like hearing from the partner who may feel the need to take all the blame and defend her, so I turned my phone OFF. I don't like phones anyway. I went out and bought a new Wii game to reward myself with and spend the evening with a glass of wine and new exercise routine. Okay, they don't really go together but both make me happy! We deserve happiness don't we???

[bearwithme]

to reward myself with and spend the evening with a glass of wine and new exercise routine. Okay, they don't really go together but both make me happy! We deserve happiness don't we???

Sealynx: well put!!!!

Seastorm, Swimmer: everyone hear has great advice.  If only I could run like the wind with it and conquer all that I need to conquer.  The words are uplifting and basically, I feel so NOT alone in this world.  Thank goodness for peeps like you or I wouldn't know what to do. 

It's just too bad that we have to have lives like this, or I should say, had lives like that.  I'm thankful that I can just rant and/or complain to you all and you don't think I'm pathetic or a sad case.  Other peeps don't understand and they would have told me to suck it up or to shut up by now.  I never get sick to hearing your stories because I find myself in everyone's situation, somehow.

My situation with  my NM is so not right with this world and I don't think it was ever intended for me to suffer or feel so many emotions over my NM. 

Some people were given brilliant, loving mothers, some were given loving stepmothers or decent kind mothers who did their best, some were given father's who had to mother or grandmothers who had to play mother but loved the child unconditionally,  others were given a shit sandwich, and others were not given anything at all.  I was given the shit sandwich disguised as a brilliant, loving mother who pretended to love me. 

[bearwithme]

Jut wondering here.  Anyone heard from Ami?  I haven't seen Ami in a long while here?  Is she okay?

[Meh]

..........she screamed "STEVE! STEVE! HELP! HELP!! HELP ME, STEEEVVE!!  Of course he didn't but it disturbed him enough to complain about it.  The therapy suggestion seems sensible and husband and I have talked about it a bit here and there.  He's been pretty supportive and understands most of it but has trouble at times and I accept that........  

Bear

Bear, what you write here about how she wants to have an alliance with your husband is not right for her to do (In my opinion).
I can see it from a distance where your mother has some in-road through the child and the husband and you are put in the position of having no power. I think as heartbreaking as it may have felt, you did the right thing for you and YOUR family by demonstating to her in a physical way that she is not the focal point and core of your family. What is important is you, your husband and the kid.

It's just my opinion of course. It's just that as an outsider I can see how she is trying to be the controlling force of your family. It should be the two parents running their own household and scheduling the grandparent to come over on the two parent's terms. Your mother probably wants a situation where she makes arrangements with your husband and bypasses you completely. I think she brought this on herself by not giving you the respect you deserve, you are a mother and an adult, you deserve some respect.   

The way I see it with Nar- Grandparents is that they already had their chance to have their families and they didn't do a very good job usually or else we wouldn't be writing here on this site.

That is one of the weird dynamics of nar-relationships is that to gain personal power in a healthy way, one must also go through heartache.

[lighter]

Bear:

::raising hand::

I vote you stay NC with NM.

Mo2

[Ales2]

I was given the shit sandwich disguised as a brilliant, loving mother who pretended to love me.

This is exactly my problem! The "good mother" was a Narcissist in disguise......

[Sealynx]

I second Mo2's motion.

[sKePTiKal]

And I'll also support Mo2's motion! It's not good for your daughter to be used to soothe G'ma's ruffled feathers (re: importance) through the charade of unconditional love & caring. That's what we call providing N-supply... or feeding the vampire. It's just as deadly as the neglect and disregard and depersonalization side of Ns.

Hang in there Bear! Take care of yourself and your family FIRST; and when the dust settles, then there's plenty of time to "decide" how you're going to handle NM. Unfortunately, the "problem" will still be there when you return to it - but you'll be in a much clearer, better position to deal with it, right?

Sealynx: I'm gonna echo Hops' praise for what you wrote and your further explanations. It's the clearest, most easy to understand explanation of "how it works" that I've read in a long time - and I needed to see it right now, too! You know, reflecting back on my own situation with my Nmom... and Bear - your concern about the impact on a decision about LC/NC... in the context of what Sealynx wrote...

it occurs to me that one of the N's weapons are always empty "threats" about awful consequences that will fall on our heads because we haven't just caved and let them have their way. The truth is: it's only awful for them - and only because they're sort of "emotionally retarded"; not grown-up - sometimes not even a real person. And when we're finally able to look at situations like this without all the drama, the emotions, the fears... we realize that result really isn't our problem... it's not our responsibility to fix it or "do the right thing" by the N. Trust me - they can take care of themselves - tho' always at someone else's expense.

But it IS our responsibility to look after & forgive ourselves for not having the patience of Job, protect our own families, and not put them "in the line of fire" or allow them to be "collateral damage" while working out the bigger decisions.

[Sealynx]

Thanks PR. Glad to be of service!