Author Topic: Interesting article on "getting it" and the brain  (Read 3291 times)

Guest

  • Guest
Re: Interesting article on "getting it" and the brain
« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2010, 06:36:23 PM »
TT, started reading the MIT piece. Got to page 9 and a thought struck me: the lack of empathy we talk about here, is that the same or similar to not having ever developed an adult theory of other minds: or, being stuck with the 3-4 year-old brain which doesn't get the false belief test? I've read about the false belief tests before and they're interesting. But reading this time it struck me that maybe it's possible that some adults - not very many I'd imagine - don't pass that developmental stage. They're stuck with only understanding the world through their own eyes. They can't understand why other people might see the same situation completely differently. Is that possible? I'm beginning to imagine so. It seems that that would almost be a step back from not having/developing empathy? An earlier and more damaging (in terms of being able to function socially) er thing? We talk about ns as toddlers, but just how much of a toddler brain do we mean? And if you have an adult without a theory of mind, or a very limited one, what else would that entail in terms of possible behaviour/beliefs...is what I'm pondering. Is this different to lack of empathy, or is it a sliding scale of lack of understanding/basic comprehension?

teartracks

  • Guest
Re: Interesting article on "getting it" and the brain
« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2010, 02:12:57 AM »





Hi Guest,

Thank you for believing I might have a meaningful opinion on the questions you posed.  I don't think I can do them justice, but over time, I'll think more on it and see what mind chatter comes up with!  Actually I only looked at this piece from the standpoint that the reasearchers were using neuroscience/neuroimaging via MRI hoping to get a look at the mind, as was the case Dr. G. brought to the thread in his first post, albeit a different approach.    I don't think anyone so far has been able to actually look at the mind, therefore, Theory of Mind.  So this article is about their attempt to 'see' the mind.   They theorize possibilities for a child to develop Theory of Mind, but I don't get the sense that anything is written on a rock at this time.  Sounds to me that developmental psychology is still a strong player. Traditionally researchers, psychologists, etc., have apparently relied on studying the nature of the mind.  I personally believe there will be no reliable peeks/seeing the mind through an MRI or otherwise.

This probably doesn't answer much of anything, but its the best I can do this late in the day.

tt


 

Guest

  • Guest
Re: Interesting article on "getting it" and the brain
« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2010, 12:12:41 PM »
TT I was thinking now is the time to yield a *sigh*. (It is late in the day.)

Hopalong

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13619
Re: Interesting article on "getting it" and the brain
« Reply #18 on: September 10, 2010, 09:36:25 PM »
Quote
it struck me that maybe it's possible that some adults - not very many I'd imagine - don't pass that developmental stage. They're stuck with only understanding the world through their own eyes. They can't understand why other people might see the same situation completely differently. Is that possible?

Guest, I sometimes have this thought too.

It really surprises me, as a possibility.

Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Guest

  • Guest
Re: Interesting article on "getting it" and the brain
« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2010, 09:12:48 AM »
I dunno Hops, the more I think about things, esp. brain things, all kinds of stuff seems possible and I get less surprised! (I'm not sure that that is English but I imagine you get my drift.) I like a theory, but I don't get too excited about them these days, esp. my own.

sKePTiKal

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5441
Re: Interesting article on "getting it" and the brain
« Reply #20 on: September 11, 2010, 10:35:42 AM »
Actually, Hops and Guest - to me, it's more than a possibility or theory. It is the central issue about my mom; her issue, her brain - that renders her incredibly difficult for me to deal with. The only reality for her is the one in her own mind... and if other perspectives, viewpoints or opinions or even feelings don't exist there - then, they are "stupid" or bad or wrong.

Could be... maybe... this type of neuro-handicap is behind most N. But how it's manifested and developed from there is probably infinitely variable; individualized, so that it's possible to have the same "root cause" for both a classic N who thinks they're the greatest person in the world and can do/be no wrong (despite evidence to the contrary) and also the Martyr/Saint variation... who will insist with their dying breath how much they've sacrificed; what a poor, pitiful victim they are, despite how many people they hurt to prove that.

In my mother, I've seen that it's almost a learning disability - because the part of the brain that could "imagine" themselves in someone else's shoes - the empathy factor - is also the part of the brain that would allow a person to "imagine" what-if scenarios... and be able to learn from experience and accept a new fact's or tentative set of criteria's impact on her "reality". It is somehow fatally dangerous to her whole reality's structure to allow new stuff in... or admit she was wrong. Like she would fall completely apart into disparate pieces and never be "put back together again"... if she admitted a mistake... or that someone else has their own reality.... with different thoughts, feelings, experiences and opinions.

Like Dr G, I think there is a genetic factor in all this but no one's really figured that one out yet. I can't prove a thing... but I have been haunted by weird similarities between my mom and brother's (and one of my daughter's) way of interacting with everything outside of them. It's as if they've all suffered a stroke in the exact same region of the brain... and while there's some variation in the types of functions available at any given time, and it even sort of has a "cycle" to it... isn't completely all-encompassing and sometimes seems to almost lift and be in the "normal" range... and then wham! they're right back to the reality they call "home" that isn't connected with the rest of the world at all. My mother is the kind who will fight and argue and deny that the sky is "blue", OK? She can't see it; it doesn't exist; I'm wrong... and it hurts her that I'm so messed up... so it's all my fault.

RIIIIIIIIIGGGGGHHHHHHTT.

Neuroscience/neuropsychiatry might provide the only hope for an effective N-therapy... for N's.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

Guest

  • Guest
Re: Interesting article on "getting it" and the brain
« Reply #21 on: September 11, 2010, 12:27:55 PM »
Appreciate your post PR.

 
Quote
if other perspectives, viewpoints or opinions or even feelings don't exist there - then, they are "stupid" or bad or wrong.
or they are complete fabrications, presumably existing simply to drive the N nuts? If I (the N) lie whenever I 'need' to, then I assume that an alternative opinion is also a lie. I guess. It cannot be real.

Your paragraph including "it's almost a learning disability" sounds spot on to my experience and I've accepted for myself that it is indeed a real learning disability: she is not 'all there' and never has been. As for therapy, I don't see it happening because if we could ever find a way, I guess by then we will have found how to prevent it.

It's good to feel that my thoughts are understood, thanks.