Narcissism, Old Age, False Memory, and Alzheimers

[SilverLining]

Hi Everybody.   

I haven't posted much lately though I've kept lurking and reading posts. 

Things were fairly quiet with my FOO until about 6 months ago.   In the past I've written mostly about my father and his "Aspergerish" tendencies.  Now it's my mother at the center of the storm.   IMO she along with my father have always qualified as self absorbed, although she seemed to be fairly socially functional.  She always had friends and activities.  Now at age 74, she's taken the self absorption up a couple of notches.  Before, conversations were 85-90% about her and her problems.  Now it's closer to 100%.  Even the formalities of reciprocity (asking "how are you" and so forth) have been completely discarded.  She'll start a conversation with something like  "well so and so did it to me again" and then launch into an extended monologue about her latest crisis.  And there is ALWAYS a crisis.  If she doesn't have something to gripe about in her present life, she dips back into old memories, some going back 60 years.  She talks about ancient events as if they happened yesterday, and even breaks into tears over alleged slights and abuses from decades ago.  I suspect the memories are highly embellished and maybe even close to delusional.  A lot of them have a "dreamlike" quality and are far too detailed for such distant events.  Comparing notes with my siblings, I've discovered she goes over the same events with them in the same endless detail.   

Meanwhile she has alienated most of her friends.  She suddenly started arguing politics with a lot of people, when previously she didn't seem too concerned or interested. 

While all this is going on, my father has (maybe predictably)nearly disappeared into the woodwork.  I haven't talked to him in months. 

I've been wondering if this kind of behavior is "normal" old age for a  narcissistic person, or if it is something worse, such as early Alzheimers.  The delusional memory stuff is especially alarming, and it's hard to find out much about it.  Since it's hard to prove or disprove old memories, it seems there isn't much research on the topic. 

I figured people on the board would probably be able to shed some light on the situation. 

[JustKathy]

Speaking from my own experiences, I'd say this could be normal. I'm going through pretty much the same thing right now, particularly with my Co-F. Until recently, Co-F was NEVER self absorbed. He went about his life acting dopey and clueless, completely controlled by NM, and never engaging in any kind of serious conversation. He's always acted in a very Forrest Gump "life is like a box of chocolates, la dee dada doo," manner.

NOW, in the last two years, he has REALLY changed. My NM was diagnosed with terminal cancer and one month to live (allegedly-I've seen no proof of this and she's still alive). After that happened, Co-F became very self absorbed, making every single thing about himself and his dying queen. He has stopped asking people how they are feeling, and instead forces upon them how HE is feeling (and he's always feeling sick). They have also alienated most of their friends/family. My NM's sister (my Aunt), who has stood by her and tolerated her for decades has finally stopped visiting. She's now in her 80s, and I don't think she can take it anymore, especially now that it's coming from my once pleasant father as well.

This is an example of how my father has changed, in just a short time. He turned 80 last month, so the woe-is-me stuff has been cranked up a notch.

Typical phone message, ten years ago:
"Hi! Just calling to see how you are. Hope you're doing well, and enjoying the new house. I sure look forward to seeing you. Pet all the dogs for me. Have a nice day. Bye."

Typical phone message, today:
"Just calling to say hello. Things are going terrible for us. Your mother is going to die any day, and I'm not far behind. My arthritis is terrible, and I have to have a test for my prostate next week. I'm going to need surgery, not that it matters, because I'm going to die soon anyway. We're just miserable. Oh well, just thought you'd like to know."

As far as I can tell, my father is extremely fit and in amazingly good health for his age, so this is the effect of life with an N-wife, not Alzheimers or other disease.

[sKePTiKal]

SL - I just connected what you described as delusional memory with something Lighter posted over on Dr. G's DSM-NPD topic.

I think as old age sets in, an N is simply more open about showing others their private, delusional reality. As if it's important to "reveal" the historic, heroic, and martyr'd moments that they were responsible for... that perhaps never really happened, or were experienced quite differently by others... and they want to "set the record straight".

But that brings up an interesting question for me. IF an N truly does develop alzheimers - does that alter their PD? In other words, make them more - or less - N?

[SilverLining]

I think as old age sets in, an N is simply more open about showing others their private, delusional reality. As if it's important to "reveal" the historic, heroic, and martyr'd moments that they were responsible for... that perhaps never really happened, or were experienced quite differently by others... and they want to "set the record straight".

That's very interesting, and fits right in with ideas I've had about the situation.  These memories often seem a fairytale like morality drama.  There are good and evil players acting upon her.  My mother is usually the "martyr"   Many others get to play the evil role, but especially her father and husband.  For instance, she has a detailed story about how her father actively prevented her, a girl from the ghetto, from going to college, while a benevolent school official was unable to help.  It's like a movie plot but without the happy ending.   There's some level of truth in the memories, but it seems she takes it to a near delusional extreme to "set the record straight".   

I believe this kind of process has always been part of her personality, but it's getting more frequent and extreme as she gets older.  I heard fragments of some of these memories many years ago, but as time goes on she fills in more (self serving) details.   

Thanks to you and JK for the replies, it's all very helpful.

[SilverLining]

But that brings up an interesting question for me. IF an N truly does develop alzheimers - does that alter their PD? In other words, make them more - or less - N?

As to this question, what is going on with my mother sure seems to be an intensification of personality problems she has had all along.   In the past it was more "episodic" and now it's becoming a near constant.  And at the same time I'm seeing some of the same kind of process with my father.  It's like they get to the point of losing the struggle with their own inner demons, and just let the warped sides of their personalities take over.   

[JustKathy]

But that brings up an interesting question for me. IF an N truly does develop alzheimers - does that alter their PD? In other words, make them more - or less - N?

Since alzheimers destroys the brain and causes near-complete memory loss, I would think that it DOES alter their PD. However, whether it makes them more or less N is a really good question. My gut feeling tells me that if they lose their memories, and no longer recognize family members, that it would be less (at least for the family members who were directly affected by it). If they were to become bigger Ns, it might affect different people, like people at the nursing home with whom they now live. If my NM got alzheimers, and could no longer recognize me, I would have to think that my position as the scapegoat child would cease, as would my brother's position as the golden child. I may be completely off base, but it makes sense to me that if the alzheimers patient has no memory of the child, they would also have no memory of the child's position in the FOO.

[sKePTiKal]

Hmmmmm.

I think - and this is just a "working premise" right now - that an N disorder works independently of relationships with specific people. It's more an all-encompassing way of viewing the world and all the people in it, in relativity to the N him/herself. And then, this requires the N to constantly work an angle to maintain their image, reputation, self-defined sense of superiority and control in both their delusional inner world - and their outward interactions. That's a learned skill; and skills are based on memory. (Leaving completely aside the moral and ethical and humane issues.)

So, wouldn't losing specific memory-connections also affect this N-oriented sense of self? Maybe not at first; maybe like SL is describing, there is now more inner "freedom" to embroider additional details into the old narrative self-memories... but maybe closer to the terminal side; when more memories are "lost" - maybe an N would also lose that N-ness.

A very close friend of mine (dating back to Jr. High) recently lost her mom to Alzheimers. And there were too many N-signs in this woman's personality for my comfort. Because of my earlier experiences, when I met her - we took an immediate dislike to each other. And even my friend was aware of how extreme her mom was; her reaction was to simply make light of it - it was funny to her. Of course, her other parent - her Dad - was one of the sweetest, caring people ever. That probably kept my friend more balanced than I was. Some of the stories my friend has told about her mom's state of mind as she deteriorated, indicate that the N side of her personality disappeared the worse she got; the less able she was to remember who was who around her... the more she became a very frightened, child-like version of herself.

Well, maybe one anecdote isn't even close to being enough to string together a theory and I think I can see that perhaps for some people, the process might even accentuate the Nness through most of the progression of the disease. But, it still rings logical to me, that if "self" is based on narrative memories - who we tell ourselves we are and how & why we became this way - then, at some point in the progression of a disease that impairs our memories it is possible that even that sense of self can be impaired and altered. If that could be proven... then, it would follow logically, for me anyway - that an N would stop being an N.

Maybe.