victim but no victim?????? CB

[debkor]

Hey Lup,

I don't really know what's going on but I would really pay attention (to my feelings).  Sure you are having (triggers and connection) to your M about how you are feeling with M (with his words and actions)  Things that don't just match up but are all so familiar to you. 

I have read you Lup and from what I gather::  You have been told (many ugly things) about ex-wife and his past relationship with her.  Things he is (sour about).
He has (satanized) her in talk to you.  Yet he remains (very good friends) has her over talks different to her (then he has to you).  It causes you (much confusion).

On the same hand::  Your not sure what he says to his children (about you) his ex-wife (about you) you know what he is saying to your dance people (about you).

And you said yourself::: He is playing games. 

So can you understand (as far as his children) wanting to spend holidays (alone) in thier father's house because they won't go to mother's house where she lives with her lover and his wife that (they) may want no part of...The game.  They want to spend holidays with parents.  That's it.  Anything other that goes on in thier life (drama) they are shutting out.  I am visiting you and mom.  Anything other then that.  We will not be coming.

Lord knows Lup (how they feel) what they have been through....Your only hearing (what you are being told) and by whom.  Yet it looks a different way to you.
You see his children as being narcissistic, self-fish, demanding which may not be true or very well could be true.

So ...lets leave the holidays out!!!  Lets leave his children out!!!!  Let's even leave his ex-wife out!!! Let's leave your mother out!!
And what do you have?

A man who makes you feel uncomfortable, makes other women feel uncomfortable....And you take it from there!!


Love
Deb

[lighter]

When you have a chance or opportunity (without M around)... and you see that older woman who told you you need to be happy to tango... ask her how she is. Compliment her on what's she wearing - do anything to open a conversation with her. I think she might be an angel-friend for you... it kind of sounds like it, from how you described her - and her reaction to M. And it would be someone - other than M - to spend time with, and maybe be close to.

(((((((Lupita))))))))

Absolutely love to see you making reciprocal, maternal connections, Lupe.

If nothing else, she's a strong nice person to cozy up to regularly at Tango class.

Lighter

[Lupita]

I dont know what to say, except that thank you for taking the time to talk to me.

I know that M is very selfish and inconsiderate.

This will have to end sooner or later. I just don't want to end it right now. I need his company. But I am spending less time with him, I have not gone to his house in two weeks, not at all.

So, little by little I am imrpoving.

My first boyfriend when I was 15 was just exactly like M. Same personality. My ex-husband, was exactly like M. My mother is exactly like them, and my father was the same.
I am used to being mistreated. Just dont know how to break the vicious circle.

[Lupita]

I have been abused by almost everybody I have been involved. Boyfriends, girlfriends, workers, etc. I show something that elicits that behavior. I dont know how to behave different.

Constant fear, constant loneliness, constant fear of being alone, and I always end up alone any way.

[sKePTiKal]

Lupita, you now see the pattern and how it's repeated throughout your life.

You're not the only one! I did this too... and even the hubby that I'm with now and our relationship has some of the same "issues" to it, as my relationship with my mom. Just not the really awful ones.

NOW, it's time to breathe and relax a bit; take care of yourself and resist telling yourself that this is "all your fault". Sure, you've got things to learn about why you do this and how to break the cycle; change it. But seeing the pattern is HUGE step forward... so the first thing to do, to make more progress... is to rest and gather yourself together for the next step. I know I said "it takes two to tango" - and you know, that somehow you keep attracting and getting involved with abusive people... it's just not time to go there and start working on that yet.

The best advice I could give you, is to take this to your therapist and work on it there - first. Don't try to change a whole lot in 3-D; you say you're not spending all your time with M and maybe this much distance between you two, will "work" for awhile. Working on this with your T first, will give you a chance to really understand how this works (it's more complicated than it looks!)... before you put it all to the test in life. It really is an educational process - learning things about yourself that you might not even have noticed before - and finding ways to fix them inside first... before trying to make changes outside. I always wondered why my outside changes were never permanent - why I always slipped back into the same old, same old... it's coz I hadn't changed inside first. A T is the best person to help you learn how to behave different - based on the inside changes.

Can you think back to when you first came to the board? Can you see how much you've learned, changed and grown - already? Sure, there's more. That's true for all of us. But you're getting there, kiddo. You don't have to rush this, you don't have to be perfect (you will make some mistakes - you're allowed to make mistakes!!) and you will continue to grow.

And no more of this "always alone" stuff!       What am I, chopped liver???! Hops, CB, Lighter, Deb.... we're here, right?

When you have those kinds of thoughts that make you feel just lower than low... you gotta start talking back to them; question the truth of them and the basic premises... because I don't think any of us here would agree with those thoughts you're having about yourself or accept them as "true" about you - all inclusive, all the time, stuck like this. People make mistakes; people get "stuck" in cycles, loops as GS calls them... it happens; it doesn't have to be permanent... and it is possible to figure out why and change this.

It will be OK, Lupita... you're doing real well, even if it doesn't feel like it right now! But please do me a favor, and start talking about these patterns with your T. I've only got my own trial & error experience to offer you... and the things I've learned. It's a real good thing that everyone else has chimed in, too - to say what I either didn't get, didn't see, or forgot.

[Hopalong]

Hi Lupita,
PR said something that's really key for you, I think: talking back.

I'd like to add, discipline yourself to stop saying/thinking two words: "always" and "never".

When you express yourself or describe your life in negative absolutes, you literally do not allow room for change, hope, or growth. You kill them before they could start. You poison the ground for them. You create a psychological micro-climate that will not support life. [fixed "not" on edit]

I believe the discipline of thought-stopping, daily meditation and use of affirmations (in a morning and evening ritual) would be excellent supports for your work with your T. Add a committed and well-led women's support group, and you cannot avoid beginning to heal.

love,
Hops

[Hopalong]

What Is Thought Stopping?

One effective and quick technique to help you with the intrusive negative thoughts and worry that often accompany panic disorder, anxiety and agoraphobia is called “thought stopping.” The basis of this technique is that you consciously issue the command, “Stop!” when you experience repeated negative, unnecessary or distorted thoughts. You then replace the negative thought with something more positive and realistic.

Why Thought Stopping Works

The principles of why thought stopping works are pretty straightforward. Interrupting bothersome and unnecessary thoughts with a “stop” command serves as a reminder and a distraction. Phobic and obsessive thoughts tend to ruminate or repeat in your mind. Left unchecked, they become automatic and occur frequently. If you’re using thought stopping, you become aware of unhealthy thought chains and divert your attention from damaging repetitive thought habits.

Using the thought stopping technique can give you a sense of control. When followed with positive and reassuring statements, you are breaking the negative thought habit and reinforcing a sense of reassurance. If unhealthy thought patterns have influenced how you feel and how you behave, so too, will healthy and beneficial thoughts — but in a much better way, of course!

The basis of this technique is that you consciously issue the command, “Stop!” when you experience repeated negative, unnecessary or distorted thoughts. You then replace the negative thought with something more positive and realistic.
Difficulty: Easy
Time Required: 15 Minutes, Several Times Per day
Here's How:

   1. Identify Your Stressful Thoughts.

      Start by monitoring your bothersome and unnecessary thoughts. Write down the thoughts that are causing you the most trouble and pick one that you would like to work on.

   2. Create Positive Thought Substitutions.

      Write down positive statements and affirmations next to your stressful thought. For example, you can replace the stressful thought, “I’m always alone and always a victim. I'll be hurt and alone forever. I will never be close to anyone who's not like my mother,” with:

      I’ve been on my own before and have enjoyed my own company.
      I am confident that I can control my anxiety and panic by using the relaxation techniques I have learned.
      I know that my medications are working to prevent me from having a full-blown panic attack.
      I will go to the _____ and have a great time!

   3. Repeat and Replace.

      Close your eyes and think about the stressful thought. Try to imagine yourself in a situation in which the thought may occur. Repeat it in your mind for about three minutes and shout “Stop!” (You’ll probably want to do this part in private.) Let your mind relax and go blank for about one minute. If the thought intrudes, shout, “Stop!” again. Say the positive substitution statements and affirmations you identified in step 2 above aloud. Repeat these substitutions for about three minutes. Try to visualize your success in the stressful situation as you repeat your thought substitutions.

   4. Important Considerations.

      In order for thought stopping to be effective, you will need to practice it throughout the day for several days. The unwanted thoughts are likely to continue to recur during the initial days of this exercise. They should, though, gradually diminish.

      Thought stopping may not work for everyone. If you find that your stressful thoughts are becoming more frequent or if the exercise is producing increased anxiety, discontinue and talk to your doctor or therapist.

Sources:

Davis, M., Eshelman, E.R. and McKay, M. “The Relaxation & Stress Reduction Workbook, 5th Edition. 2000 Oakland, CA: New Harbinger Publications, Inc.

McKay, M., Davis, M. and Fanning P. “Thoughts and Feelings: Taking Control of Your Moods and Your Life. 1997 Oakland, CA: New Harbinger Publications, Inc.  

[lighter]

All good advice, Lupita.

You have to discover boundaries, and begin putting them in place.

They won't be perfect, but they'll grow and so will you.

Lighter

[sKePTiKal]

I am glad Hops had a link or copy of the thought-stopping technique, because it is something you (and I need to do this some more myself!!) can DO, to quickly help yourself.

Helping yourself = having some control = not being "help"less = and being free of "always" and "never" kinds of thoughts... which can grow into attitudes and beliefs (thought-habits turn into self image) about oneself. Healing, in other words. It's the very first step in practicing and exploring how to "trust oneself", too.

It's important not to kick oneself for not knowing how to do this already, too. Because this is the kind of thing we should learn from a "mom" who talks us out of our own exaggerated or distorted feelings, about ourselves while we're growing up... and replaces those nascent thoughts with encouragement to try again and do the best you can and that she'll still love you no matter how it turns out....  and damn it, we didn't have that kind of mom... so we didn't learn that THEN.

The beauty of life, is that it's never, ever too late to start learning how to do this for ourselves. NOW.

And you're not the only person in the world who needs to be reminded of things like this, Lup. Turns out that today, I needed just this reminder... because no matter what else I "am" or what people believe me to be based on outward acheivements, characteristics, or personality - inside, most of the time, I am still that little girl who wonders what in the world is wrong with her that her mom won't "mother" her. I feel like a kitten who's been rejected from the litter... and left to fend for herself. And thoughts and feelings like that can start to shade and color my whole being... and initiate the spiral down... and then I'm right back in the middle of an emotional cesspool, trying to sort out mutually exclusive, irreconcilable realities.

In fact - I did remember this morning, my metaphor for this kind of change... that because nature abhors a vacumn, if you are trying to "stop" something or change a bad habit... you almost always have to start the change with finding a replacement - like a place holder for that space - but it has to be "intentional"; planned, thought through the potential consequences, and you have to really, deep down WANT to make the change. Sometimes, that "want" is the hardest part - but it is the magical lever that can start the process.

Hang in there, sweetie - it's going to be OK. I'm probably going to be "off the air" for a few days this weekend. But it looks like the cavalry's here for you... and believe me, they're wiser than me!!

[seastorm]

I send you lots of love, Lupita.  This relationship you have is like the tango. It is ok as a dance and a deep artistic exploration of the light and dark of the soul but better left for the dance floor. You go round and round, desperate for approval and love  and sometimes you get and sometimes you don't. When you don't, you are devastated.

First love yourself, no matter what. I think a female dance group would be good for you because it is not about who is pretty and who is going to be asked to dance.  It is the Dance.  Maybe flamenco dancing.  Dancing with yourself and for youself. Seeing yourself reflected by others who accept you and care for you.

Medication helps me to keep life manageable. I cant advise you on this. Too much pain alters the brain in so many ways.


Sea storm

[towrite]

Lup - I can identify with the "hole in your soul" feeling. I had the same feeling most of my life. I finally found a therapist who helped me connect with all the buried, unverbalized pain that WAS the hole. I had never had the courage before to face, acknowledge, and give voice to that pain. When I did, the hole disappeared. I don't mean I feel necessarily fulfilled as a person, but that emptiness is no longer there, plus I have a much more complete picture of myself. With the hole, I would get frantic, panicked, and completely freaked out when a part of that pain was tapped. I would lose it completely, reach out to other people in state of helpless fear. People shunned me as a result. Others couldn't help. I know now the hole was all the silent screams and terror I experienced at the hands of two N parents. I had no idea what was happenbing when something touched that hole and I would freak out. I couldn't feel anything. I sat and shook alone or did that senseless reaching out - senseless b/c I could never explain to anyone what was happening. The more complete picture I have of myself now includes all the pain I could never before put words to. (I was threatened a lot by the N parents that no one would believe me, I'd better not tell anyone, etc. So I buried it beyond the reach of words.) Now I can recognize feelings, I can recognize what triggers the feelings and why. No matter my circumstances now, I can FEEL. Having the hole was such an awful existence that I feel for you, my friend.

(((((((L)))))))


towrite

[CB123]

My version of Thought Stopping is asking the "four questions" that Byron Katie talks about.  She's a little bit airey-fairey when you get into her too deeply, but those four questions really work for me.  It forces me to stop and question my reality and admit the possibility that I am not seeing things exactly as they are.  I dont have to determine the "truth" of a situation before I am able to cope with it--I can just admit the possibility that there is a greater picture that I am not seeing and be okay with that.

CB