Author Topic: Voicelessness or ???  (Read 14786 times)

Hopalong

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13629
Re: Voicelessness or ???
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2011, 01:35:10 PM »
And surely...anyone who can be this perceptive...

Quote
what you really yearn for is to be a full member of the group that is those left behind by MIL.  When your H edits your comments (your expressed feelings), the bottom line is a feeling of exclusion.  The sibs are the "real" group, you need to take care of their feelings.  When the sibs dont create a plan for dealing with the stuff in your house, the sense is that your role in this loss is unacknowledged. 

could get an MSW and be eternally successful for the next several decades as a counselor?

Wow.

Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

CB123

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 878
  • It's never to late to be what you might have been
Re: Voicelessness or ???
« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2011, 10:16:30 AM »
Awww, thanks, Hops.  You are very affirming...

We'll see if the thought is really any help to Amber....I am pretty hit and miss with my insights.  Probably like everybody. 

Love
CB
When they are older and telling their own children about their grandmother, they will be able to say that she stood in the storm, and when the wind did not blow her way -- and it surely has not -- she adjusted her sails.  Elizabeth Edwards 2010

sKePTiKal

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5440
Re: Voicelessness or ???
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2011, 08:42:21 AM »
Guest:

That third group - is it kinda like a whole series of connections? Like a network? complex, and relationships dependent on other primary relationships... like the internet? (If then, else statements)

I relate to what you've said about how the "groups" don't exist in reality; my understanding is that "group" is my perception of people of interacting together and the functional/dysfunctional connections between them. Perception - for me - is a whole bunch of emotions, attitudes, likes/dislikes, blenderized together... some facts; some subjective preferences... into a concoction that I call experiential "reality". That reality, isn't solely fact-based.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

sKePTiKal

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5440
Re: Voicelessness or ???
« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2011, 04:41:12 PM »
I've had that same experience... of finding out how what I believed to true... was so very wrong. Sometimes, it's even just been that I have a new perspective (from my advancing age! HA..) that's just way different than at 21; 30... I think that's what I meant in the subject - the ???? - stands in for hey, tell me if my perception is out of whack here... if I'm only looking at things through the "old" lens/perception of dysfunction vs... another explanation yet to be revealed (and one that's perfectly sane, rational, normal...).

I just have lingering pockets of doubt, regarding my own perception... courtesy of gaslighting, I guess.

The doubt can be a problem of it's own. An extra layer of complexity...decoding... translation...
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

sKePTiKal

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5440
Re: Voicelessness or ???
« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2011, 09:45:22 AM »
Quote
I have so many of the same issues that you have with your H...what to do with his sensitivity to your emotional state (caretaking you when you dont need caretaking), his need to tell you how to do things that you know how to do, his lack of attention to things that would TRULY help you and that you have asked for.  In my marriage, it was a constant battleground...with him being an N, I was not allowed to even THINK he was out of line.  So there was that, and it was hopeless.

But now I am in a relationship without the N factor, but to my surprise, those other factors still exist.   I have found it very difficult, but I have been able to get to the bottom of it some.  The common denominator for me is the need to feel HEARD, UNDERSTOOD, AFFIRMED by him.  All the things above are symptoms (to me) of the OPPOSITE.  Although to be fair, they may not be symptoms of that at all TO HIM.  I wonder if you are in much the same place?  Your H seems like a very nice guy...but kinda clueless on some levels.

This is an important observation, CB. From the standpoint, that we expect (or hope) to not experience the same things we did with an N-whoever... when in relationship with someone who's not an N. I've been thinking about this. It's almost as if (sorry for the visual image) my emotional discomfort from experience #1 is engraved on a mirror (of my own perception?) in a specific pattern... and when something "appears" to fit within that pattern... up comes the same ole discomfort.

Pavlov comes to mind - maybe that's 'coz that's where I started trying to understand my own crap - in that I'm programmed to respond with a "no-no-no-not that again" response... to behavior from hubs that has a completely different intention from my N-moms' same/similar treatment and/or symptoms. I'm not experiencing it as a completely new situation, with a different person... that engraving on the mirror matches so perfectly... that my snap-judgement perception what's going on is... identical. And of course his perception of my reaction makes absolutely no sense to him and he's mystified. Kind of like MIL, not believing that my mother completely "forgot" my birthday... not understanding that there are people like this.*

Even when there's a high level of trust in the new situation/person - that engraving on the perceptual mirror remains as a trigger-button. Unless of course, I'm present enough to interrupt the reflex process... and for me, there's a complication with having to be so "present", in that I associate that with hypervigilance... having to be on guard against a boundary violation... or something/someone hitting one of those mirror engravings.

I suppose the mirror could be repolished... the engraving buffed out; or there's always my favorite sound - that of breaking glass; or maybe I can actually find a way to "walk through" the stupid mirror... hmmmm.

*These kinds of things happened a couple of times with MIL & me. Just a couple of times, before she was able to "read" me... and start to understand what was behind the "doesn't make sense" reaction. Maybe she understood more about the impacts of "people like that" than she was saying...

Quote
The common denominator for me is the need to feel HEARD, UNDERSTOOD, AFFIRMED by him.  All the things above are symptoms (to me) of the OPPOSITE. 

This is a real hard one to explain to someone who's never experienced being tortured by a person who is simultaneously proclaiming how much they love you, how this is "for your own good", and who - no matter what you did, said - was ever satisfied with you, or your efforts... hubs doesn't understand that his "acts of kindness" fit into an engraving on my mirror that comes with a red-alert warning to "watch out - duck- here it comes!"

We've made some progress with this over the years. But in some ways, the more I understand about it - the more it's been in the way. I wonder how I go about "letting this go"? Whether it's in changing the mirror... changing my pavlovian response (retraining myself)... I wonder if I can convince myself that this is a "learned response"... a survival strategy that's no longer needed... since it's so engrained in my experience that it would logically be assumed to be a real "part" of me???
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

Hopalong

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13629
Re: Voicelessness or ???
« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2011, 11:28:42 AM »
I am really learning from this thread. Thank you, PR--and CB.

I feel as though in your descriptions I recognize a kind of brittleness that I often feel in close relationships--mainly with men. It is about a sense of desperation I feel when they don't understand what I want or when they don't take something I've been hyper-careful to communicate as seriously as I do.

I think sometimes it's a trace of my Dad's OCD-ish perfectionism. I sometimes will OVERexplain something to do, and then they'll do it imperfectly (or insert their own inclinations into the process, which changes the method I have fulfilled in my head...before the reality). And it can trigger a kind of desperation -- comes out at irritability or edginess. Even anxiety. Over-reaction. But at other times it's even triggered flight from the relationship.

The thing I think about is the desperation. Disproportionate. And in my case, definitely about control.

I think when I was bullied by my brother at home and by the herd at school, I felt nearly 24/7 profoundly helpless, completely without control of my own peace, and without allies. (Except for occasional comforting times with my gentle though ineffectual Dad.) With the general daily bullying "torture" I experienced-- learning to articulate, to think, to begin to wield the power of communication (language, writing, speaking) was enormous for me. It felt like survival itself. It also led to the first time in my life when I was treated with respect. That was late high school, but one day a teacher took a story I wrote and read it to the class with great respect. Then I won a prize or two. It changed everything for me (and it was all about being able to convey stuff w/language).

In close relationships (even currently, with a coworker here who pushes all the same buttons) I think it gets tested. I have some lingering rage I'm not in touch with, about being bullied. I am so intent on never letting anyone bully me, that I lay out a minefield of instructions/expectations that are really intended to help me survive. Not just to help me get a task done effectively.

When someone doesn't cooperate, or is sabotaging (sometimes from resentment at my over-zealous instructions) or passive-aggressive...I really feel fury and frustration. It's extremely unpleasant. I let go of it as fast as I realize it's happening but do not like it. (I am phobic about anger. Early religious training plus my nature.)

The other thing this thread reminded me of is the notion of "self-soothing". I think it's as huge in importance to survivors of Ns as assertiveness is, but I forget about it a lot. I think it's something I've really neglected to get good at, and if I did, the other kind of reactivity would be sidelined, I think.

I figured out with my T yesterday that I am not sure I deserve love. After all this time. I feel a sense of failure in many critical parts of my life. I didn't realize until I said it to him, that when looking at the idea of trying to find love, I veer away...because if I've failed, then perhaps I actually don't deserve to be loved. (So if someone fails to be supportive or cooperative--even in minor things--perhaps I'm taking that as proof?)

So if I can figure out where the desperation at lack of cooperation or instructions-following comes from, and learn to practice self-soothing as a first priority (rather than correcting another), and remind myself I am deserving of love....

I'd be all better.

love,
Hops

"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

sKePTiKal

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5440
Re: Voicelessness or ???
« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2011, 08:22:42 AM »
Quote
I figured out with my T yesterday that I am not sure I deserve love. After all this time. I feel a sense of failure in many critical parts of my life.

Hops has said it... and I think we can swap out any number of things for the word "love" in what she said. Respect, dignity, happiness, "normalcy" (whatever that is)... and I can relate to that feeling of a sense of failure, too.

Where it comes from - for me - is from the particular configuration of perception that I use to look at "everything", myself included. The more I've learned and observed, about dysfunctional families, relationships... the more it became the context of my perception; how I defined the world... other people; myself... and how I determined the success or failure of my relationships and changing my own self. There is a "language" of healing that becomes the lens of perception, sometimes. It's only one lens, though. There are others. Looking at things with other lenses - really, it's not so bad and those feelings lift some, too. The "absolutes" stretch out further and there are more points on the continuum - outside of the context of the type of perception I've spoken from a lot here and interpreted my experience and world from, while healing.... and learning about this one type of flawed interaction among people.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

I'm too easily pulled into trying to "work on myself"... to reach some brilliant (ha!) understanding... to re-arrange and re-cast myself into some new mold... in a primal attempt to "fix what's wrong with me"... to be loved; to consider my successes and failures in absolute terms... because I've lived all my life with that basic reality between me & my bioNic mom:

nothing I could do, be, become, learn... would ever change the basic, simple fact of her illness that prevents her from caring about others, myself included.

And I accepted that - but I accepted that as a failure on my part; I accepted the role of victim in my own story (had to, to get the grief and loss out); I accepted that I've internalized a complete set of coping strategies for dealing with "the sick person at the center" - including my own version of controlling; managing her - for the purpose of "staying safe". This acceptance became that lens of perception... how I interpreted my experience; my world - and the people in it.

I kind of slid into this... despite a lot of successes "doing something else". It was subtle and insidious... not wholly volitional - sort of a "default" setting that is equal to my "comfort zone" of old crap; old misery; old patterns; yada-yada-yada... sure, there were triggers and repetitions of old patterns with my bro. Sure my hubs tweaks a lot of my buttons...

but the only reason it's still a "problem" is because I'm still using the old "lens" to define it as another iteration of the "same old, same old". It's as if I've stigmatized myself - carved out my own red letter "A" or tattoo'd it on my forehead... and resigned myself to only this one way of understanding my world and my life. To analyze it all to death... to use the perceptual lens of the victim... as way of understanding "the normal world". And that perception "fits" often enough in that world... that it seemed helpful, useful... and sometimes it is. But not always. And though this one perception is very familiar and has adjusted to fit right right around me like an old pair of slippers - I'm noticing that those slippers really stink! They're frayed around the edges from over-use, dirty past the point of getting clean again... and they no longer provide enough "illusion" of safety anymore; they're no longer as comfortable as they used to be.

My psychological understanding of people and their interactions is just flat out making things more complicated than they need to be. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. My inner perception of myself - my acceptance of a time when I was a victim - isn't relevant anymore. And using that perception to understand and define what's going on around me now - in those terms - doesn't make sense, either. So, I'm left with feeling as though I'm speaking foreign languages... with one foot in one world/perception and one foot in another... and so, I'm making myself feel "not heard"; misunderstood; and re-wounding myself... in both - by not just picking one and going with it. See where it goes and what it is. And I've done this one enough, I think.

Even some of the new things I learned about myself on this journey, have turned out to be wrong. Big example - was that I learned and felt I needed a lot solo time; solitude... and that it was a solid, inflexible boundary that would be stressed by hosting so many people here last summer. Sure, I'm still anxious about this - but no one was hurt and nothing bad happened; I had plenty of personal time and didn't have any ill effects, when I didn't get it. It was hubs who pointed out that boundaries are like fences and that they need gates for people to be invited in... and for me to go out. Somewhere along the process, I also realized that boundaries are always shifting - like wind ripples on a sand dune... and that a better metaphor, is concentric circles - so that there's an "inner circle" and even an "inner-inner circle"... and many outer circles... and that people are constantly shifting between them - of their own volition and my choices; my invitations. You guys are all part of my "inner-inner" circle; the people can I trust to understand even my most convoluted, confused, overly complex ways of thinking about things. Your opinions, experience and feedback and ways of seeing things; understanding things is important to me... along with just the wonderful "who you are".

It's really not all that hard - as long as I remember that RULES and never-changing absolutes only exist in those dysfunctional situations. Where "control" and who has it, is the perceptual lens of interpersonal relationships. Control is way less important in other kinds of situations with other people. When that old perception is let go - the door to other ways of perceiving situations and other emotions and other ways of being and defining the world around me - gets flung wide open and a wonderful fresh breeze blows in and removes all the "old" dust and blows the stinks away.

It's really hard to believe that's possible when one is still eating the bitter pie of grief and loss and all is dark and gloomy, wet and dank... at the beginning or middle parts of one's journey. I've wanted to encourage people... to say "it's worth it!" and "keep going, you're doing great!" because I do care about y'all. In some cases, you've heard me and understood. You've even heard the things I avoid looking at or saying, many times. A couple of times, it's felt like I'm speaking in tongues and I realize that person isn't ready for that yet; can't hear it because of the immediate volume of emotional noise around them or their own lens of perception, way of accepting, or language of healing. Being a persistent cuss and eternally hopeful... I've probably pissed quite a few of you off with my trying! I hope you can forgive me. Maybe it's silly... but I want all of us, each one of us here... to see what I'm seeing about what it's like beyond the "same old, same old"...

because we all deserve that.
Right?

:D
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

Hopalong

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13629
Re: Voicelessness or ???
« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2011, 04:49:02 PM »
wow:

Quote
nothing I could do, be, become, learn... would ever change the basic, simple fact of her illness that prevents her from caring about others, myself included.

And I accepted that - but I accepted that as a failure on my part

Directly to the heart of the whole thing.

Thank you, (((((Amber))))).

I am clapping hard along with Guest.

love,
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

sKePTiKal

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5440
Re: Voicelessness or ???
« Reply #23 on: January 27, 2011, 07:20:20 AM »
I hear you, on the responsibility side of the equation Guest. Yes, those folks in my inner circles can count on me to be there, do whatever they need... and sorta help them, help themselves. But sometimes, I forget that I don't wear a spandex catsuit (oooo.... not pretty!) and cape, all the time. I can't say I even know where I can best be of assistance; I make plenty of mistakes. And I'm taking risks, too - I'm no more immune from being rewounded by the depth of misery and sadness that exists in the world, now, than I used to be. The only difference, is that I know when to turn that channel "off" and go for a walk, now.

The "over-responsibility" that comes from protecting the sick one at the center - upon whom, all survival without torture depends - has in the past caused me to insert myself into too many things; to over-volunteer myself; to try to be everything to everyone... and yes, even drive myself to exhaustion thinking... pondering... on the big questions in life; trying to find solutions or untangle the big "issues of the day" in current life. And that's kinda how I'm feeling about viewing everything that happens through that one particular lens of psychological abuse/healing... I've taken it to an extreme; where it becomes more of an obstacle and less of a help.

I have to ask myself: self - how can you enjoy life and people, if you're always one step removed, focussed on sorting out your own and everyone else's roles, motivations, and the subtle "games" that go on? It's great that I recognize the symptoms of things going south now... and know that it's OK for me to have boundaries now about that stuff... but if I allow myself to analyze everything, everyone I encounter... it's like a program running in the background on my computer - it uses resources, slows everything else down, and can even lock up the whole machine! And as useful as this skill is... there are lots of other ways of understanding or seeing things.

When my 60 lb dog insists on laying on my lap and being petted - he's not being "co-dependent"; when he paws me awake to go out at 3:30 am... he's not controlling.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

sKePTiKal

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5440
Re: Voicelessness or ???
« Reply #24 on: January 27, 2011, 08:48:34 AM »
Hopsy -
I spent quite a while researching and learning about attachment issues. I still miss Carolyn - Certain Hope - because she helped push me along on that topic. For me, I'm sure that this is the source of the feeling that I don't deserve to be loved - and yet work so hard to be... and why I have such high anxiety and trepidation about truly intimate relationships. And I know you remember how I saw the parallels between this issue and my self-destructive smoking habit. (still reducing... comfortably, btw).

It's really the ultimate double-bind, to my way of thinking.

Mom = source of food, connection/acceptance, comfort, protection, survival
Mom = terror (of unpredictability, becoming a target, of not being safe), humilation & shame, constant dissatisfaction, constant control, complete denial of my right to my feelings (or even existence of my feelings)

It's like some twisted zen koan!! Especially considering that I at least half-consciously realized that I "needed" to maintain the fiction of the single-parent family until I was 18. I couldn't live with her; couldn't get to 18 without her... and part of me was clear enough to realize this was my only viable avenue of "escape".... even though it didn't really turn out that way. I've been stuck for a long time.... with the "mom in my head". I'm still trying to convince myself, prove to myself - that this "mom in my head" isn't the way other people are. Proving that is kinda scary... simply because all people can be a little bit that way, at one time or another. But, it's not their totality of being.

Confused yet? I don't blame you! It is confusing. I think our concepts of love, intimacy (even with ourselves), boundaries, comfort... all that is based, according to attachment theory, on the type of relationship we had with ole mom. And attachment starts in infancy... and most of us can't remember that far back. I can't either - except for a handful of things that were engraved on my brain in technicolor. So far, there are few different kinds of attachment that have been proposed - secure, disturbed, insecure - but I really want to add one to describe how I felt with my mom... terrorized. I only felt "safe" when she wasn't around. And that sort of violates the "laws of nature", you know?

Terror is traumatic... even when it's delivered as a constant drip-drip-drip in daily existence. Trauma sort of "sets in stone" some of the elements of that experience; it gets internalized, in my lingo. Things that are internalized usually are seen as an integral "part of us"; who we are; our self. I'm coming to realize... slowly... that's not necessarily so. It's like this one thing blotted out, covered up, hid all the OTHER things I am... including the ones that I wasn't allowed to be, without incurring the wrath of the "dragon-mother"... you know - the REAL ME which always got me sent to my room - not that imitation mask of my mom that I had to wear to be allowed within her sight.

I had to forgive myself for not being able to be her, successfully enough... to earn her "love" (which I'm still not persuaded she has any). I had to accept that the real me... without all that crap forced into/onto me... was just fine; maybe a little raw & unrefined at times... a little feral... but with the right "fostering", I learned to be socialized OK. I'm not the misbegotten gnome of a twisted up person that I had to PRETEND to be... to survive living with her.

I'm still learning... that "love" doesn't require this kind of awful personal, internal stuff. I don't have to anticipate or expect that people will want this kind of psychological gymnastics or contortion of me. Without a fear of more trauma... without needing hypervigilance for signs of that... or trying to mind-read or analyze all the time... I'm finding I have more energy and more head space for me, the people I want to spend time with... and the things I like to do. I'm still vulnerable to my own thought-patterns that flash warning signs & overwhelm & retreat & confusion... but in baby-steps, I'm starting to relax more and that means I enjoy more.

Still, I'm just a beginner... so I have my little panic attacks from time to time... I get lost & forget the little bits of what I've already proved to myself. I feel at loss to discover what the RULES are... because there aren't any of those kinds of RULES outside of a warped relationship. I over-compensate, I feel awkward & self-conscious... but like guest says: no one dies. As my tai chi teachers says: nothing bad happens.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

Hopalong

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13629
Re: Voicelessness or ???
« Reply #25 on: January 27, 2011, 10:55:32 AM »
I hear that, PR.
So articulate and clear.

I sometimes think one challenge is when my traumatized bits get triggered...it lasts quite a while. for example, a month later, nothing to do with an indirect signal from my brother (diluted through two attorneys and a realtor) -- and I get freaked out by a minor interaction with a coworker (the one I've belatedly set appropriate boundaries with).

Another thing your post made me think about was the idea that having histories of abuse maybe makes one sometimes look for perfect safety. I know I have (hence, hyperviligance, or running from connection).

I think something I will be helped by pondering is good-enough safety. Knowing that if I've explained my needs as well as I can, and the other person is not a real N but just another clayfoot like me...then I will not get my needs perfectly met, and I will not be perfectly safe.

But I will be safe enough. Most of the time I have good-enough safety. And even, good-enough needs meeting. (The latter only when I take primary responsibility for setting things in motion that will meet them.)

Self soothing
Good enough safety
Most needs met pretty well

I think these are the things I need to enrich my perception of.

love to you, much.

Hops

"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

ann3

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 499
Re: Voicelessness or ???
« Reply #26 on: January 27, 2011, 02:01:55 PM »
It's really the ultimate double-bind, to my way of thinking.

Mom = source of food, connection/acceptance, comfort, protection, survival
Mom = terror (of unpredictability, becoming a target, of not being safe), humilation & shame, constant dissatisfaction, constant control, complete denial of my right to my feelings (or even existence of my feelings)

Terror is traumatic... even when it's delivered as a constant drip-drip-drip in daily existence. Trauma sort of "sets in stone" some of the elements of that experience; it gets internalized, in my lingo. Things that are internalized usually are seen as an integral "part of us"; who we are; our self. I'm coming to realize... slowly... that's not necessarily so. It's like this one thing blotted out, covered up, hid all the OTHER things I am... including the ones that I wasn't allowed to be, without incurring the wrath of the "dragon-mother"... you know - the REAL ME which always got me sent to my room - not that imitation mask of my mom that I had to wear to be allowed within her sight.

PR,
I really relate to what you have written, as well as the journey you have described in this thread.  I too am a big believer in Attachment Theory.

I recently came across a web site which I found very helpful in crystalizing, clarifying the attachment/terror/trauma trio & hope you find it helpful:

http://drkathleenyoung.wordpress.com/2009/09/04/relationships-after-severe-trauma-making-healthy-choices/
Relationships after Severe Trauma: Making Healthy Choices
..."Attachment theory addresses the vulnerabilities abuse survivors face when attempting to form later relationships."

Here's a list of all her articles:
http://drkathleenyoung.wordpress.com/article-list/

Here's another web site therapist that I really like:
Narcissistic Parent: Collateral Damage
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=askvictoria#p/u/24/pgWd4DVYHR4

Compensating Childhood Behaviours: They May Not Be Needed Anymore!
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=askvictoria#p/u/20/w-mUl7LlR3s

HTH,
ann
« Last Edit: January 27, 2011, 02:09:33 PM by ann3 »

sKePTiKal

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5440
Re: Voicelessness or ???
« Reply #27 on: January 27, 2011, 04:21:55 PM »
Hi Ann - these are good links! It'll take me awhile to read through things, but what I like is that she can explain what still feels to me, to be a very complex "dance" in simple language. Much easier to process than my own descriptions!

How've you been?


Hops - let's add "good enough Hops" to the list, too. Good enough, to my way of thinking... and when you have opportunity and energy to reach for more... well, nothing's stopping you. I think sometimes, I've gotten addicted to a self-improvement or self-observation treadmill (along with the self-judging part, too)... and if I'd just stop thinking there's some "magic place" long enough to look around me... it's all pretty much "good enough". I can stand down from that effort too - and do something else.

That's another long-term effect from the kind of attachment I had... reframing that into an "I want" instead of an "I need" just made me more dis-satisfied with myself... I just wanna REST!! And go out or stay home... have some fun... and just do/be ordinary stuff for awhile.

I don't always have this current level of clarity - where my thoughts came together around all the diverse things that sparked this topic. Thinking I ought "quit while I'm ahead"... before I go way off on tangents again.

CB's contribution is worth re-reading a couple more times... it started this avalanche of ideas falling together into some kind of coherency.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

ann3

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 499
Re: Voicelessness or ???
« Reply #28 on: January 27, 2011, 05:16:49 PM »
Glad you like it, PR.

I think that "Ask Victoria" T is amazing.  Spent hours watching her videos.  I think she really "gets it", like Dr. Grossman.

I'm doing OK.  Just got off the phone with my Nish/full N sibling.  I'm drained & have indigestion!!!!!!!!!!!!

But, everything is transient.  Every moment, every thought, feeling, emotion passes.  Trying to live in the moment.

zenfully yours,
ann

ann3

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 499
Re: Voicelessness or ???
« Reply #29 on: January 27, 2011, 05:43:08 PM »
PR,

More home work....or Self Work.

I wanted to share that I joined HayHouse Radio for $48 per year, gives me access to their entire audio archive.
Anyway, I've been listening to Caroline Myss's show called "DEFY GRAVITY".  Myss intuitively diagnoses & sometimes cures physical illnesses & she is a mystic.  So, I'm listening to her shows from 2006 onward.  It's a lot of info & a lot of healing.

What I really like about her is that she oozes Wisdom.  I think you might like her.  Here's the web sites:
http://www.hayhouseradio.com/
http://www.hayhouseradio.com/hosts.php?author_id=59
http://www.hayhouseradio.com/about_wisdom.php