OK, returning to topic that plagues me... Collussion

[sKePTiKal]

Collusion as self-defense and  ...mythological remembered glory

both hit home for me. The paranoia that someone will "take the N for a ride" or "get one over on them"... sigh... I'm so used to this in both Bro & BioNic mom that I hardly notice it anymore; just take it for granted that it's part of their relationship-style with everyone who's not themselves. And I think it's a big part of why I second-guess myself ad infinitum while trying to make decisions that involve any risk... 'coz "what if" they were right? I'd never live it down - the "I told you so's... the life-long memory of a mistake... and the complete and total definition of who I am, with an association with that memory of "you ALWAYS...."

This paranoia is a lot of "fun" [sarcasm], when trying to run a business.

Yes, hops... both of them paint rosy, idealistic pictures of the past glory of many things. In addition to that, I think the black/white nature of their thought-patterns doesn't allow for any "relativity of value". By relativity, I mean the scale & intangible value of things - relationships - people. They wouldn't understand the difference in intangible value between a Vera Wang, red silk sheath that fit my particular body perfectly - and one I could get at a discount store... for hundreds less. To them, there is no difference in "absolute" value of the two dresses themselves... and only the price tag matters. That might not be the best example, but my excuse is that this topic is churning up a lot of "stuff" for me, right now.

In some ways, I think this type of thought-pattern is how they manufacture their own unhappiness and justify being such jerks, mostly through a passive-aggressive interaction style. The B&W thought process puts them in direct constant conflict with people and processes that aren't B&W.

The collusion as self-defense or survival skill... is "coping", to me. If you have to interact with these people, it's essential and critical, that you "connect" with them - at whatever level they are at. I go to "their world" - their perspective, world-view, etc - and try to work things out there... hopefully bringing back a result to "this" world that is functional, at least. I try not to (can't help it, a lot of times) force my world-view or reality on them... force them to come to "my world"**, in other words. This is where the conflict is; it's their nuclear-meltdown, trigger-button. Those forays into "enemy territory" leave me feeling like I need a sauna to get the crap out of my pores. Because I have to be devious, deceptive, invisibly manipulative. I hate doing this, even though I have a fair amount of skill now, at it. It is taxing to my patience (maybe that's why I was labelled "always impatient") to spend months and years, trying to get a simple decision, decided. Simple in my world, that is. You'd think their whole self-image was on the line, at risk of blowing up, because of these simple decisions.

It does not compute to them: you're allowed to be wrong, make a mistake, or change your mind later on, about this decision. Because of the "absolute" - once & for all, forever - nature of B & W thought-patterns. Situational value simply doesn't exist, nor a scale - continuum - of importance. A little mistake is equally as devastating as a big one. And just as "forever".

And woe to you, if you express your consternation, irritation, anger, or even tell them that they're making you crazy and not facing facts of reality. Never ever tell them they're wrong... or that their idea or paranoia makes absolutely no sense. They know everything about everything and are "always right". And there's always some horrible disaster waiting, if you don't "do it their way".

The thing is: it's exactly this characteristic that makes them vulnerable to scams, to being taken advantage of, to being used and manipulated. I saw that happen to N-boss, with the man he reported to.... over & over. N-boss got used as a "front" to protect and deflect responsibility/blame from his superior; N-boss deflected also and made sure someone else (who was ordered to do X - or else) paid consequences and was blamed. And with some of us, he wasn't able to order us around without at least an argument; I got immense perverse pleasure out of calmly telling him NO - to one of his more frivolous and insane requests of me.

After observing this and other characteristics for a couple years, it dawned on me. These people are only as powerful as we let them be. They are only as hurtful and frustrating as we let them be. The fact is they have almost NO power - except the delusion of power - because they are non-functional (beyond dysfunctional) in the shared reality of normal people. It is still a very painful (excruciatingly patience taxing) process to venture into their world - decode their crazy-making ideas - and slowly but surely guide them to something close to being a win-win or acceptable decision that allows normal things to happen, somewhat normally.

Lighter:

I made a couple of mostly-conscious decisions as I "graduated" from therapy that might help you come to grips with whatever is connected to your original questions about collusion. One: I'm really bored & tired of trying to find a way to live where I don't run into these kinds of people. It's a time-consuming attempt that restricts me and my life so much... that it can hardly be called "living". There just isn't a rock big enough to hide under, you know? Related to that - it's also exhausting trying to figure out if new people (not my foo) are Ns... or deciding where they fall on the continuum. That bit of information doesn't do me any good, anyway.

I'd decided to stick with my job and "study" my N-boss and learn what I could about defending myself from outrage, crazy-making, insanity. So I kept my job 2 years longer than my T thought I should. Yes, it was a masochistic way to go about it...
but it paid off, because I learned to manage that kind of stress, better than before. There were definitely days I wasn't sure if the benefits outweighted the costs... but now, I'm glad I did that.

In my case - with the family business - I have no choice about being NC. So I have other strategies that help. At the beginnning of the estate process, I made the mistake of thinking that my brother had changed; that he'd learned another way to be himself; that he'd matured. After all, he's past 50 now. I was horrified to find out that I wrong about that. And I decided I couldn't just "run away" from dealing with bro without giving up what was rightfully mine. So I decided to stick it out; fight when I had to and figure out a way to do this without injuring - rewounding - myself over & over. I'm still workin' on that!  ;D  But, I'm not alone anymore in that struggle - because it's plain as day to other people "how he is" and they are helping me "get things done". I don't need to co-opt them as "allies"... they've already figured it out... and as inhabitants of the same "reality" as myself, we already share some of the same goals. We don't directly discuss this - it would be like discussing someone's mental retardation and rude/unfair - through an implicit agreement.

I decided that "it's a fact of life" - part of my reality - that these people exist and that at times, I'm going to have to interact with them. I decided, that I'd better learn how to do that AND protect myself. It's not worth the time & effort required to try to change the N's in my life. It's understandable that part of me is always going to wish I could - but I've been reminding that part of me that the probability of this happening is close to zero. I'm still very much learning how to do this - and also, when to drop the defenses, the boundary vigilance, the "discretion is the better part of valor" habit of keeping my mouth shut - voicelessness - when the people I'm interacting with are NOT like this.

And this is even harder than "the devil I know". I am so used to that devil... that my skills at developing new friendships, creating and maintaining intimacy within existing relationships... has been neglected. I still intentionally mystify and keep people at arm's length, like I'm totally ashamed of myself. I am still trying to answer the basic questions from the beginning of therapy: what do I want? what do I like? what can I do for "fun"?

** Long story short - I gave up; stopped; maybe even forgot how - to "invite" people into my "world". I let myself be convinced that no one wanted to - or could - share that. I have a hard time believing - accepting - that people do LIKE me. It still scares the crap out of me.... unless they've been through something like what we share here. That was why my MIL was a such a miracle, for me. She'd never experienced anything like this; the bits I told her were like her soap-opera stories - something that she couldn't really understand about why people "are like that". Something not "real". I wish!

At the moment - and I don't know if this state is related to it or not - I'm having a real struggle with "saying things" without feeling like I'm in danger of invoking the N-monster response or like I'm being too blunt, tactless, direct, too personal... there is always a critic sitting on my shoulder; the political correctness cop - or the fear that "I shouldn't say that" because I'm not allowed to. And this isn't the productive kind of "self-consciousness"... so I'll take that discussion somewhere else.

And forgive me for babbling on & on here... why is it, it takes so many words when I'm so worried about how my words will be received???

[lighter]

I think we're wild animals, doing what makes us feel good.

Look at other primates.

The males murder infants, have sex with every female they can get their greedy little paws on, and fight to rule the world.

We're not that far removed from our cousins.....  perhaps it's our expectations that need to be altered?

::shaking head::

I'm not trying to change the nature of the beast.....

I'm just wondering IF we can do something that would alter DIM thinking, with regard to domestic terrorism.

Or not.

As the majority of violent crimes are perpetrated by recidivists, and we can't control the sexual/violent predators even,  I'm guessing we don't have a chance of addressing the gas-lit fog enveloping the N's and S's.  Esp if they're only harming family members.

Its really a shame that children, and spouses, seem to lose their citizenship when involved with domestic NSociopaths.

I think that's the core of my frustration.

I don't like it.

[sKePTiKal]

Actually, Lighter - it's worse than losing your citizenship for some of us. Even if you can stop the cycle, yourself, as you grow up - and do things differently... it's like you've been cursed.

Until you get some help to start healing, that is.

But I hear you - one of the topics that I started to post then self-censored; was on what society could do to address this problem. Then, I realized how "society" would attempt to address it... and realized that even professionals argue over the definition of what constitutes a disorder... and are struggling with finding the point on the continuum where someone shifts from just having a tendency to something - to the full-blown problem... and how quickly we all are to judge... and how some people would simply need a push in the right direction to change -- some need medication; others don't -- and yet others need to be restrained, removed, and constantly monitored - to protect other people from them... (truly, I'm way less worried about protecting them from themselves... no matter how unfair that is from an objective point of view)

... and how many innocents would end up being further mistreated...

... so I just stopped, thought better of posting it... and decided to "let it sit" some more.

[lighter]

::sigh::

I'm going to let it sit some more too, Amber, though I have the feeling that there's some bit of alchemy that can be discerned......

some tricksy little puzzle piece missing that would bring clarity to the situation, somehow.

It naggles at me.

I've always felt that educating the little people, who aren't yet lost, was the key, but our education system is having a hard time teaching kids to read: /

It's going to be about educating the more normal people, whoever they are.

It's got to be about education?

Or maybe we are just wild primates, doing what we'll be doing until we're extinct?  The legal and family system created by the wild primates, for the enjoyment of the wild primates?

In the meantime, it's very difficult to pretend we live in a civilized society, while the least among us are brutalized by people who're bound to protect them,  then ignored or harmed by the system that's supposed to protect them, if they're noticed at all. 

No justice there. 

::shaking head::

The INFP in me can't seem to let that go...... partly bc of my ongoing situation,  but partly bc it's just so wrong in so many ways, and always has been. 

DIM thinking seems so wrong, that it's a sin, IMO. 

Sloth. 

Esp when Judges, Social Workers and people who could lift a finger, SHOULD lift a finger to help, have taken oaths to lift a finger.....

don't.

It's not going to be about changing or healing active NS's. 

It's going to be about providing some moral consequence for the sin of Sloth/DIM thinking that touches everyone's lives the way that domestic socipaths touch people.

"Medieval theologian Thomas Aquinas said Sloth is "sluggishness of the mind which neglects to begin good... [it] is evil in its effect, if it so oppresses man as to draw him away entirely from good deeds."  I believe I have in mind bitter jaded family court judges, and craapy over paid divorce lawyers.

Oh Great.  I just pictured myself in crazy pilgrim oufit, brandishing a bible, and babbling on crazily about sin and going to hell: /

Lighter

ps  I still think DIM thinking is related to sloth.

[lighter]

Risking visions of myself standing on a soapbox, in my crazy pilgrim suit, I've provided an article written by Rev. Victor Shepherd, March 2006.  It was one of the first articles I found while researching Sloth, as I believe it relates to DIM thinking.  I'm not familiar with any other beliefs or writings of Rev. Shepherd, but I identified with this article.  I've also cut out sections, so that it would fit the page, (and relate what I'm trying to get accross, from my soapbox.)
 
 
  

"The Seven Deadly Sins: Sloth

1st Kings 19:9-18                     Acts 14:8-23                           John9:1-5

  

II: -- Then what is sloth, and why did our Christian foreparents regard it as spiritually lethal?  Sloth is the persistent state of being “tuned out”; of being unengaged; of relishing indifference.  Sloth is the state of remaining uninvolved, uncommitted, uncaring.  Sloth is the state of being a spectator in life, even wilfully absent from life.  There are many reasons for such sloth.

[a] One is the selfish desire to keep ourselves for ourselves, the “selfist” desire to keep our own life uncomplicated and unperturbed by ignoring people whose lives appear more difficult than ours, even endangered.

   Several years ago I was purchasing candy in a variety store in Mississauga when an 18-year old “tough” began harassing the Egyptian storekeeper.  The 18-year old had obviously been in the store before since the storekeeper recognized him instantly and became increasingly upset, almost hysterical: “You getta outta my store right now”, over and over.  The fellow refused to leave the store.  The storekeeper became near-frantic.

   There was a customer in the store besides me, a big man who could have assisted the storekeeper in a moment.  But as soon as this big man saw trouble brewing he slipped out the door and disappeared, leaving the distraught, middle-aged storekeeper to handle this teenaged tough, with only a skinny preacher to help him.  I had a word with the hooligan, and he left.  Whereupon the storekeeper fell all over me in gratitude.

   The man who sneaked out of the store exemplified sloth.  He didn’t care if the storekeeper were robbed or beaten up or terrorized.  He wanted only to “avoid trouble”, as he would have put it.  In truth, he wanted to keep himself for himself.  He was willing to jeopardize a defenceless man whose predicament was obviously difficult and danger-ridden.

   Think of the vocabulary we hear every day.  “Don’t get involved.  Go with the flow.  See where the wind’s blowing.  Add up the room.”  All of which means, “Stand for nothing.  Stand up for nothing.  Stand up with no one.  Protect yourself by abandoning everyone except yourself.”  This is sloth.

   As enlarged faith and greater faithfulness overturn our sloth we are going to find ourselves viewed as odd.  A society bent on ease and drowsiness and self-gratification can’t understand why anyone would ever step out in a commitment that doesn’t promote ease and drowsiness and self-gratification.  Still, we who are Christ’s people march to the beat of a different drummer.

 There are two aspects to the resolute faith and resilient faith that overcome sloth.  One is vision.  With the eye of faith we have to see the importance of the work to which God has summoned us.  If few others can see it, too bad; we have to see it.  We have to see what is right and righteous and why. Even if we're not Christians, we should still see what is right, and righteous and why.

   The second aspect to our resilience is courage.  Courage is distinguished from foolhardiness by one thing: the importance of what we are doing.  The person who walks through fire as a stunt in order to impress onlookers is a fool, while the person who enters a burning house to rescued trapped children we reward for his courage.  Any person who came to the assistance of the beleaguered Egyptian storekeeper – would that person have been foolhardy or courageous?  Is assisting a defenceless storekeeper something that God deems important?

When we are called to take the stand that will always be unpopular; when we are summoned to make the sacrifice for the person who will never thank us; when we are called to do what’s right in an environment that rewards two-faced palm-greasers – in all these situations others are going to tell us we’re foolhardy.  We, however, are going to be sustained by our vision of what’s right, as well as by a courage that rises in proportion to our vision.  Vision and courage will reinforce each other.  The temptation of sloth will recede.

   There are always people we must care for, even as there is evil we must resist, truth we must uphold, and a Lord whom we must obey.  He, after all, has promised never to fail us or forsake us.

Rev. Victor Shepherd                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      March 2006"

 
 

 I realize the words "healthy boundaries" can be substituted for the word "sloth."  I don't know what the answer is.
Lighter
 

[lighter]

My God.

How in the world do family court Judges get away with sitting there, making judgements, without any education for dealing with domestic abusers?

Or Personality Disorders?

It's insane that they're expected to make decisions when they don't have the tools.

It's insane that they think they're capable of making informed decisions without information.

If they knew how much damage they're doing, I wonder if most of them would find a way to become more informed?   

I've seen some pretty awful assumptions lead to some pretty terrible decisions, and consequences, in Superior Court.

That the Judges can be very snide and condescending, to one party or the other,  when they have no idea what's really going on, is mind boggling.

That they carry their own very human prejudices into the courtroom is alarming.

They make assumptions and go with it.  Poof! 

God help the people trying to shield children from sociopaths, N's and domestic terrorist of all stripes.

Pompous.

Asses.

[sKePTiKal]

oh lighter...

I just don't know what to say. "This too shall pass" just doesn't feel right, for this.

I see - and know first-hand - the societal issues you're describing... but I don't think it's possible to make laws or rules that would effectively provide the protection, the justice you're seeking. I know, again personal experience, how often the "official helping organizations/people" can and do add insult to injury - or even worse damage. And I think there are inherent dangers in this way of seeking the safety - the civilization - you want. It has to be a mutual agreement... not something that needs to be "enforced".

Twiggy's Tale of Woe - remember that? For years and years and years, I felt I should find a priest and go to confession. I needed to confess something... but I didn't know what it was, but it felt huge and spiritual and even shameful. What it was, was my story... I needed to tell it, period. I had to spit it out. And it was the telling that was the magical part of the process... I told it, I retold it, I pieced together enough of it to write a novel out of events that spanned only a few months. And then I found the "bigger" story underlying those events, the "prequel" that explained how the trauma was even possible.

It was only after I'd finally gotten the story out where other people could see it, read it, touch it, comment on it - here, of course - that I found the answers to questions like your's. I don't know if you can do that; I don't know if it would even be as helpful for you to try, even. So, I'll stop short of suggesting it... in my situation, it was all so "top-secret" - and so long ago - and so completely, thoroughly denied by my mom... I almost HAD to tell it, to see it myself. That's a big difference, between our stories.

[lighter]

I think I have a choice.

Distract myself with..................

uh....


distractions.



Or......



not.


Maybe I can find some pretty bandaids, if I'm going to be distracted by bandaids?

 

[sKePTiKal]

Sounds like - which means I could be mishearing - that you are thinking about ways to actively make a difference; getting involved in some way. I flirted with the idea of volunteering for a 24 hr domestic violence hotline for awhile. And there are other ways to help, sure.

I had to put the idea of volunteering on hold for awhile, to focus on MIL. Now, I'm kind of glad I didn't put myself in that position back then. I would've felt really badly about having to pull back and focus on me for a bit, again. My "empathy button" was getting overworked... rubbed raw & over-sensitive... the last few months. Would I have been able help? yes, probably... but I'm realizing that helping takes a toll on me, too. Like everything else, some kind of balance needs to be carefully nurtured for those of us who've had direct experiences with abuse, or we risk over-taxing ourselves again.

But I can't imagine trying to get help from people offering it - who have never experienced the kinds of things we've been through, Lighter. I can't imagine that the helping organizations haven't done outreach to try to educate the legal authorities on what this kind of subtle - invisible - abuse is like for the people who are the targets of the abuse, and the people who are simply exposed to it. The kind of instant recognition - and validation - that we continue to marvel over here on the board is what people need - when they need safety, protection, and legal support to even feel like they deserve this protection. And the people who provide that on the front lines... need the understanding in practice - at the very least - from the legal and law enforcement community.

[lighter]

NPR ran a blurb about the following story this morning.  Apparently, Chicago has cleared it's death row, bc of all the cases Sherrif Jon Burge had his corrupt finger in.   That a special prosecutor, was put in place to see this case through, is uplifting.

I don't know enough about Burge to understand what he is, or why he did the things he did. 

Is he a sociopath, who enjoyed his position of authority in order to harm for pleasure.....
or is he a survivor of abuse, with misguided ideas about victim advocacy?

Not sure, but..... here's a blip about him, for anyone who hasn't heard the story.

Lighter




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Burge And The Death Penalty
With the state's death penalty system hanging in the balance, it's worth remembering the troubled reign of Jon Burge. First documented by legendary Chicago reporter John Conroy, a special prosecutor's probe found that the now-infamous former Chicago Police commander oversaw the systemic torture of dozens of criminal suspects during the 1970s and 1980s. According to research by the Center for Wrongful Convictions (and passed along this week by the Illinois Coalition Against Torture), 12 Chicago torture survivors were eventually sentenced to death and five were later exonerated for delivering coerced confessions. The scandal was one of the major factors that lead former Gov. George Ryan to place a moratorium on capital punishment here. Without the diligent work of criminal justice reformers, those men would have been murdered by the state on false charges.

Burge himself was convicted of obstruction of justice and perjury this past summer, stemming from a 2003 civil case, and will be formally charged for those crimes next Thursday. (The statute of limitations has elapsed on any allegations related to the actual acts of torture.) Prosecutors are seeking roughly 30 years of jail time. The U.S. Probation Department, however, only recommended Burge serve between 15 and 21 months. ICAT finds that leniency intolerable. Today, the group delivered over 1,000 signatures to Judge Joan Lefkow objecting to the department's suggestion. From a release:[/b]“This sentencing recommendation fails to address the devastating harm Burge wrought on individuals and families in the African-American community in Chicago, as well as the lack of remorse he has shown for the horrendous crimes he committed,” said Larry Redmond, an ICAT member and former criminal defense attorney representing death row inmates. “Systematic torture by state actors is not acceptable, but such a minimal punishment would indicate that it is.”

[sKePTiKal]

LOL Guest!

For me - the extreme cortisol levels and stress are deadly toxic. I pack on pounds around the middle... and go on the attack with everyone and everything that crosses my path. It's the direct path to a form of emotional spontaneous combustion... for my own self. Sure people back off to stay out of the line of fire, or enjoy the firewords, avoid the shrapnel of explosions... but truly, the only person who gets hurt is myself - and I get hurt extremly badly.

[sKePTiKal]

Sense of humor is a "leading indicator" for me - a sign, that when it goes - I'd better start working on whatever is bothering me. That's also kinda related to my anxiety about communication, too. When things are no longer funny or I don't see the humor in what other people think is funny... I'm turned too far inward; being too obsessive; looking for the source of the "problem" in all the wrong places even...

my weight is connected to how much "stuff" I hang on to, emotionally; I'm almost positive. When I start letting stuff go... the weight automatically (and seemingly without effort or attention) starts to drop. Last year was an intense year, that followed an intense year, that followed... and I'm still in the midst of change. But these are smaller, less significant changes... my current set of changes aren't so emotionally "heavy".