Author Topic: NC and Losing  (Read 6484 times)

bearwithme

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Re: NC and Losing
« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2011, 08:53:26 PM »
In the word "mother" I guess I used it too loosely here.  I don't need "mothering" as well and I hate the idea of being "mothered."  Yes, that would be sick.  But the friends I have love my unconditionally like a mother should and I sought them out for the need to be accepted and they accepted me.

I'm a mother now and I love "mothering."  It really is a part of me which I'm proud of.  Yet "mother" is earned...

Bear

Twoapenny

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Re: NC and Losing
« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2011, 03:56:39 AM »
I love 'mum' or 'mummy' :)  Mum always conjures up a picture of a smiling, happy lady baking cakes and worrying about my homework, even though that's nothing like what I got.  I guess I created a picture in my head of what I wanted and just kept it.  I love being a mummy to my little boy - making things for him, taking him to places he loves, cuddling him and chatting with him.  I love watching him run around - he doesn't seem to have the same cares, worries and anxieties that I had when I was young (I hope!). 

I've had two occasions when women my mum's age - complete strangers - told me they thought I was a lovely mum.  I may already have posted about this so sorry if I'm repeating myself (but I'll tell it again anyway!).

Once was at a swimming pool when my little boy was about three.  We were getting changed afterwards and I wasn't doing anything out of the ordinary - just got him dried and dressed and then put him in the playpen with some toys and a snack while I got changed.  I was just chatting to him and this lady remarked that it was lovely to see a young mum (bless her for saying young!) being so nice with her child, and that I was obviously a good mum and he was really lucky to have me.  It was so lovely to hear that; all my mum ever did was slag me off and say I was too soft on him.  Another time we were walking to the park, which we did every day, whatever the weather.  He was in his buggy with about forty layers on (it was January and really cold) and a big blanket over him.  A lady stopped me and said she often saw me out walking with him and how nice it was to see a 'proper' mum with their child wrapped up against the cold out enjoying the fresh air.  I was walking on air.

I always think of women like that when I hear the word 'mother' or 'mum'.  I guess I don't associate my mum with being a mum?  I hadn't thought about that before.  I love the feeling of being looked after, of being cared for, emotionally.  The people on this board are like virtual mums to me - the men as well as the women!!

I bet you are doing a great job with your little one, Bear :)

bearwithme

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Re: NC and Losing
« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2011, 11:50:54 AM »
TAP:  That was just beautiful!  Reading this made me smile and think of those things that conjure up the word "mother."  I don't know if you either "have" mothering instincts or you don't "have" them.  I understand that somethings are instinctual but the other nurturing things, learned, innate?

Why do some "mothers" abuse?  Why do some "mothers" abandon?  Why do some "mothers" beat?  Why do some "mothers" ignore while the other "mothers" teach their children to read, love and be kind to others? 

My Nmom did not abandon me but she abandoned my self-esteem.  She beat me with verbal words and ignored my cries for help and mercy.  At times I wanted to be dead and she would get angry or laugh.  My Nmom must have taught me to be kind to others because I am.  I'm too kind and sometimes a doormat because I let them go too far.

I had no happy medium....

Bear

bearwithme

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Re: NC and Losing
« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2011, 11:58:19 AM »
I just read my last post and you know what?  I sound like I'm blaming my Nmom.  I have to be careful not to blame her.  I think that's dangerous, no?  Playing the blame game is just trouble and if I go that route then I will never stop grieving and my anger will strangle me again.

I had a long talk with my older brother last night and he said that we mustn't blame Nmom for her deeds and the outcome upon us.  We can feel sad about that part but blaming her opens up a whole can of therapy.

What happens to us when we blame?  What can possible come of it?

Bear

Twoapenny

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Re: NC and Losing
« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2011, 03:22:17 PM »
Part of the whole process for me, Bear, was blaming, blaming, blaming.  I had to go through a very, very long period where I blamed her for absolutely everything.  The thing is, when your parents screw up, whose fault is it?  Most of us blame ourselves, as children - we're not good enough, we're too badly behaved, we don't deserve nice things, we're not clever enough, we're too noisy, etc, etc, etc.  For me, a really essential part of healing was shouting from the roof tops NONE OF THAT WAS MY FAULT!!!!!  I  had to go through a really angry phase to get that out of my system.  I don't feel a need to blame so much now, but neither do I feel a need to take responsibility for other people and their actions.  I don't think I'd have moved on if I hadn't blamed her.  I can understand now why she is the way she is and why she did the things she did and I suppose I don't attribute everything bad that's ever happened to me as being her fault anymore - but I think that's only because for a long time I did let myself blame her, if for no other reason than if I didn't blame her I blamed me and I wasn't going to get better if I didn't get in touch with my anger and rage and humilation and all the other stuff and lay it at someone else's door for a while.

I don't think always blaming people for things that happen to you is healthy.  A friend of mine was really angry at her husband because he went out after her and she didn't have a key.  He didn't know she didn't take a key, she should have taken one or checked he was going to be home.  But she didn't and blamed him for her mistake, which wasn't fair.  By contrast, if she'd told him she didn't have a key and he said he'd be home, then went out knowing she couldn't get back in, then it would be fair to blame him.

I say blame away!!  You don't have to tell anyone else you're doing it if it's going to cause problems, you can lay it all out on here :)  I think it's a healthy part of the process.  It might be what you need to do at the minute? :)

Hopalong

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Re: NC and Losing
« Reply #20 on: January 29, 2011, 04:20:18 PM »
This is very easy for me to say because my NMom was not rageful or physically abusive.
So take it with a grain o' salt...

I think what's releasing about the blame question is when it gets to:

Great compassion for the self (perhaps following anger): This was not my fault. AND:
I deserve love, nurturing, respect, boundaries, and hope.

Next step (or perhaps just a possible eventual step): This was not her fault. AND:
She was damaged or sick or broken and what she did to me was how all that showed up.

I think accountability is different from blame.
An abusive adult who hurts/rejects/neglects/attacks/harms a child IS accountable,
no matter what suffering or neglect or abuse they in turn had been shaped by in their
own childhoods. They are accountable morally. And legally (though that's insufficient).

Accountability is a very present-tense kind of thing, maybe? Very few abusive
people volunteer for that kind of painful self-reckoning. Nobody can impose it on anyone,
except to the degree that the legal system has some remedies (it only has some, and
inconsistent ones). It's an amazing thing when some abusive folks step up and take it on,
because then their whole futures can be peaceful. But how rare is this? I think very.

Blame is an intense and maybe "sub-step" kind of emotion? It might be just
one step in healing anger -- when one rages at the universe, I AM! I am whole!
I am not a victim! I did not deserve the suffering I went through and now I will do
everything I can, out of love and respect for myself, to avoid repeating it!


I hated my mother off and on. Really did. I carried blame for her for many years.
And she was never violent or overtly cruel. Just a very crazymaking maNipulator.

But in hindsight, despite other regrets, I see that the real gift of the decade I
spent as her caregiver...was that I literally had to burn off my hatred and blame,
because meanwhile, I was so moved by her suffering in old age (she lived to 98).

It forced me into the present. What was in front of me was no longer the monstrous
psychic destroyer, but a very old woman, in diapers, partially paralysed, with her
only remaining dignity being that which was granted her by strangers.

And by me. If I did not help her, she suffered more. And the vulnerability reached my heart,
burned out the rest. Blame became pointless. Not even interesting to me, ultimately (though it sure held
my rapt attention for a verrrrrrrrrrry long time).

I think perhaps there was enough to love, enough that was loveable, in Mom, that this was
a possible or easier evolution for me. In a weird weird way, I feel extremely fortunate that
I could get there.

I just visualized her in her own life, so much, before the end, that she became a real
child to me.

There is literally one photograph of her as a child. Two years old. I now look at that
photo and feel love. I know that toddler did not plan to grow up and hurt her daughter.

If we ALL are, bottom line, our inner child...then I forgave that little girl for what she
grew up (in a very sick environment) to be.

Hops

PS--I don't for a nanosecond think everybody is "supposed to be" at the same place on
the spectrum, or even that there is an ultimate goal defined by any one person's experience
that's right for everybody else (though I do have that Judeo-Christian training that makes
the notion appealing). I also think I have been unusually lucky.

"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

bearwithme

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Re: NC and Losing
« Reply #21 on: January 30, 2011, 09:23:59 PM »
Thank you Hops and TAP.  I see that blame has it's place and time with everyone.  It ebbs and flows like the tide.  I tend to blame when I look back at my college days.  This is when I blame her the most because I dropped out of college due to being clinically depressed without ever knowing it. I thought something was wrong with me and that I was not "smart enough" to complete my biology courses.  I had no idea it was depression.  Not a clue.  I blamed myself for being an idiot and a bad daughter at that.  I was inept in providing emotional support to her throughout her divorce with my father and I slowly dissappeared from my college campus from exhaustion.  I truly thought it was me.  And it was!  I was an adult and aware of my life.  I should have just figured it out, right? 

All the things leading up to me dropping out of college were entirely emotional and mental.  I knew I absolutely loved school and what I was doing but I could not mentally juggle my mother's emotions and my struggle with  physics and chemistry labs.  I loved it but had to say goodbye to it. 

I had to cut one of the struggles out of my life and I chose the only thing I could cut off.  College.  Not my mother.  And so I did.

I can't stop blaming her for this.

Bear. 

Quote
I say blame away!!  You don't have to tell anyone else you're doing it if it's going to cause problems, you can lay it all out on here   I think it's a healthy part of the process.  It might be what you need to do at the minute?

I think I just told a lot of people.... :lol:


sKePTiKal

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Re: NC and Losing
« Reply #22 on: February 01, 2011, 09:25:14 AM »
Hi Bear....

I think, when we ourselves choose to deny ourselves (and our real needs) to support, prop up, take care of and protect the "sick person at the center" of the family (when the roles are reversed)... we have to seriously apologize to ourselves and re-earn our own self-trust. Blaming, in this process, is a way to avoid our responsibility to ourselves... to deflect the responsibility somewhere else.

But when we are snookered into making that kind of choice - either through age (being to young to fend for oneself) or controlling behaviors or gaslighting or mind-games or.... fill in the nefarious blank... then blame is a real thing; the accountability that Hops' has splendidly described. There is a "righteous anger"... that involves a process of burning itself out... and one way to do that, is through blame.

Like Hops has said about her mom - I can "see" the place where it's really not my mom's fault either. But I'm still burning away the anger, the blame, etc... still trying to un-do the effects...

while I'm also trying to repair my relationship with myself... for my own part in that perverse dance.

Maybe you could sign up for a biology course? Even as an audit? Maybe that would get you started on the non-blaming path to repairing that self-relationshiop. It's sort of an alternate route to the same destination.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

bearwithme

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Re: NC and Losing
« Reply #23 on: February 03, 2011, 01:59:19 AM »
Quote
Maybe you could sign up for a biology course? Even as an audit? Maybe that would get you started on the non-blaming path to repairing that self-relationshiop. It's sort of an alternate route to the same destination.

Others have suggested this very same thing.  Basically, I'm afraid.  There, I said it.

I'm afraid of failing again: i.e., what if I didn't drop out because of my Nmom situation and really dropped out because I wasn't good enough.  I may be blaming her for something I could never do. 

Is this me talking now, or my Nmom.  You see how I go?  Up and down, in and out, never knowing what I'm truly capable of.  Always afraid of what I could fail at instead of what I could succeed at.  This affliction, I hate.

sKePTiKal

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Re: NC and Losing
« Reply #24 on: February 03, 2011, 06:09:58 AM »
OK... I understand this.

Why not lower the bar... find something related that doesn't have pass/fail attached to it? Which part of biology did you used to like? plants animals cells? With plants, I know there are lots & lots of community activities... like master gardener courses... or courses related to a single kind of horticulture... like day lillies... at local nurseries. A "fun" class, in other words - not one for "credit".

For me, I needed to find something art related. A local natural history museum opened to artists on a Sat, to draw from their collection. I only went one time... but I spent the whole day drawing a snowy owl... I never finished the drawing; never had a chance to go back... and what was important out of that experience wasn't the drawing. It was choosing something I wanted to do - regardless of "importance or purpose" - making the plans; actually driving there (I hadn't been there before; have a great fear of "getting lost" - especially in urban areas), relaxing and talking to other artists...

it was like I finding a way to validate myself; prove to myself that it was OK being me - no matter "what" me consisted of. And that I didn't need to ask "permission" from anyone to do this; it didn't make me a bad mom or bad wife... to take a "day off" just for me.

Guest: I can't judge the therapist adopting the adult client... I just don't know enough about the situation. Maybe it's a case of transference gone wild... sick in other words... or maybe not. I'm guessing there's a whole story to go along with the bare facts, but I don't know what it is... so I don't feel qualified to have an opinion on it.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

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Re: NC and Losing
« Reply #25 on: February 03, 2011, 01:13:51 PM »
Amber
Quote
I'm guessing there's a whole story to go along with the bare facts, but I don't know what it is... so I don't feel qualified to have an opinion on it.
Fair enough, me neither! I'm glad you read and understood what I was saying, and what I was not saying.

sfalken

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Re: NC and Losing
« Reply #26 on: February 05, 2011, 12:43:31 AM »
Oh Bear,

I could be the one who wrote your first post in this thread. I so feel everything you say, and somehow it helps me not to feel so alone. How can another person have such exact feelings to my own? Is that really possible?

I too have a steering wheel, and a monitor, and a pillow, and a wife who have heard it all again and again. I too have children - one only 2yrs old as of last week, and parents who I have not seen in over a year now in person except for one mishap at a Christmas program - and they have sent extravagant amounts of gifts for her to  overcompensate at Christmas. I and my wife - sent them back however.

I wonder at times, about the final result here. Is my - or our life rather - improved, by being NC.. what could have been, etc...

I too see the truth that you see. My mother, and my father as her co - now clearer than ever, have illustrated for me that there is no way I could have ever won, whether near to, or far from them. THe result is always the same. I am illustrated to the world, and to themselves as the evil, (only) son, called angry, and accused of hating them, keeping my children from them, etc. etc. poor them. They perpetuate an image - and that image is more important than anything to them. To the point that they've slandered my and my wife's charachter from here to Timbuktu - (Im in MI, USA - so thats far) and destroyed numerous relationships without care at all. I can never win, and I never could have. THere is nothing I can say to their ranting messages, and the lies they tell to others. Nothing. Nothing i can say or do. Voiceless.

I actually start to get short of breath just thinking about it.

IS my life improved from being apart from them... hmm.. like you I felt smothered before, as did my wife. I knew that they were saying things about my wife and i behind our backs before - but it was easier to not face that reality then. I knew that they loved only themselves then, but when they were smiling at me it was easier for me to subconciously prtend that they were somewhat normal - and that made me more able to go about my life not thinking about this or them every day. I was lying to myself.

These days, it is difficult. My wife and children and I have endured over a year of raging from them, and the worst disrespect I could have imagined. Lie after lie. accusation after acusation. I personally have endured 37 years as of this month - 19 yrs as an adult, of endless madness with them. situatuation after situation, time and again. Through my first marriage it was the same with them. They were one of the reasons my first wife and I split up. The stress was that enourmous.

YEt still, I spend so much time every day now - like background processes running on a computer - these thoughts about all of this wear on my resources, and my ability to concentrate, and to be effective. Sometimes I think maybe this was all a terrible mistake, and other times it's as clear as can be - this is a battle - the battle for my own independance from them, and there is no thing more valuable than your own self respect, and your soverignty. This is a battle for me - to accept and live in the truth - of what they, and I myself are/am. This is an opportunity for me to recognize and break those patterns in me if they exist - which I would not have had, if I did not take the painful step to accept the truth of who they are, and to see them from the outside. If I did not give them time to show their real face, and watch them try to destory me when I did not respond, perhaps I would not have seen it as I do now. Maybe I would not have seen the urgency to make sure I am not perpetuating any of their behavior.

It's hard. That's what I can tell you. EVery day I wonder about it. I can also tell you that you are not alone - and that I personally would welcome talking about this more - here or in the private messages on this site. Anytime.

I think sometimes that I've finally gotten it under control within myself. When I can laugh at it a bit, and not focus on it so much. But its right then that I get ambushed - by some comment, or a letter, or a carefully manipulated friend of theirs who unknowingly carries a message to me.

I wonder too, about when they die. Will I get past this then? I dont know. It may sound horrible, but at this point, if I got the call tomorrow, I think I might feel relief in some sense.

The thing there is that - if they can never hear anything I say - and they wont ever - and I have all of these things I would like to tell them, and straighten out, but never can - when they die, I will become terminally voiceless. Bottled up permanently.

Ah yeah. Tomorrow is another day. I dont expect any change.

Hang in there. You are not alone. Not in the least. ;-)

-SF

Twoapenny

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Re: NC and Losing
« Reply #27 on: February 05, 2011, 02:15:28 AM »
It does get easier.  It takes a long, long time and a lot of hard work, but little by little the hold starts to get a little weaker, and your head starts to fill more and more with other, nicer things.  Your self-esteem starts to improve, you start to see the world through your eyes, rather than theirs.  But it does come.

Things still bug me sometimes.  But they come less and less often, they bug me less when they do come and they don't bug me for as long.   One day you'll be pottering about in the kitchen and suddenly realise you haven't thought about them for an hour, a day, a week.  It's a lovely feeling.

Try and focus on a day at a time.  Try and consciously re-direct your thinking.  Sometimes it helps to give yourself a limit - ten, twenty minutes a day thinking about them.  Write it all down, work at getting it out of your system.  If thoughts pop into your head later in the day say "No.  You have to wait until tomorrow now".  Counselling has helped me no end.

Hang in there, both of you, everybody!  It does get easier.  It does get better.  Your heart starts to soften.  You start seeing nice things all around you.  Your head starts to clear.  The fear starts to subside.  Not all at once.  Not quickly.  But it does start to go. xx

Hopalong

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Re: NC and Losing
« Reply #28 on: February 05, 2011, 10:45:31 AM »
Quote
I am illustrated...as the evil, (only) son, called angry, and accused of hating them, keeping my children from them, etc. etc. poor them.

Hi SFalken...

Except for one, your parents' beliefs as you describe them are true.

You are their only son -- true.
You are angry -- true. (Who wouldn't be?)
You have sometimes hated them. (A human emotion; welcome. It's transient.).
You have sometimes kept your children from them. (Yes. Who wouldn't?)
"Poor them". (The consequences of their situation are loss and sadness.)

What's not true? The only one left is the falsehood that drives the desperation of your feelings. That shaming message. But you are not evil. (They aren't either.)

The one that matters least, which you will see as time goes on, is their "campaign" to shame you. After you spend enough time with your own truth, you will have a moment: I do not deserve this, but also I cannot control it. So I will release it.

(When my Nsociopathic brother did an extended smear campaign against me...involving relatives, neighbors, church, lawyers, local agencies, etc., it was brutal. Knowing there were so many bald lies flying around about me was one of the most painful things I'd been through. I remembered wishing I could rent a billboard to post the evidence that showed he was manipulative, malicious, and abusive. My exoneration, which wound up building a detailed file of evidence that in fact I was the opposite of the slander--his projected guilt was why he attacked--was sweet. But after a while, I realized it was my own respect for myself that healed me. I had endured his bullying for years as a child, and while he wasn't noticing me as a human being...I had developed some strengths he did not anticipate. He expected me to quiver and suffer as I had as a child. The difference was, I suffered but I also screamed for help and I fought back. I was still afraid of him, but I fought for myself. I won.)

Sorry, self-absorbed hijack. Getting back to slander, which you are understandably distressed by--I finally recognized that anyone who would believe him or judge me without asking or knowing me, was not to be a person i would any longer allow to  weigh down my life.) After after a few years...the weight is nearly completely gone. I feel happiness again; interest in my future rather than obsession with my past.

I believe you will feel happiness, too, as soon as you increase your self-respect to the point that you no longer allow their judgments of you to become your own.

And if you get to a place where YOU have something to say; you will be able to choose it and say it. Or choose otherwise.

It will not be about what might be said back, or be said by someone else. It will just be about saying your own truth and releasing the outcome.

YOU are the only one you really need to make peace with, dear SFalken. The rest follows naturally, once you do that.

xo
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Meh

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Re: NC and Losing
« Reply #29 on: February 06, 2011, 08:56:24 PM »
Dear bearwithme: I recognise what you are feeling here and I identify with it.

You feel like you will lose and the dealer will win no matter what because the game is rigged and the dealer is cheating you.

I would say that those of us who had Nar-parents have been cheated out of certain things that can in no way ever be replaced.

It's something that I have greived slowly....and it is still taking me time to accept and live with it.

I agree with you that the nar-parents really are suffering from something severe and it helps me to remind myself of that.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2011, 01:31:09 AM by Muffin buster »