the really old N's

[les]

Thought it might be good for some of the members to focus on the unique needs of caring for old N's. Much has been said in other posts but oh well here's a new yet old topic...so to speak.

It seems there are some unique challenges. One that seems to torment some  "caregivers" is the difficulty of dealing with N parents honestly because they are soo old.  poor dears.

Another problem I am encountering is that the Nish ways seem to be growing as they join hands with perhaps the first signs of dementia. It's hard to say really. My Nm's behaviour has been consistently Queen N all her life. Maybe 2 things are happening. I am really seeing who she is for the first time, eyes wide open, and who she is seems even more exaggerated as her ablilities diminish.

To the guest who suggested getting more help - we are looking in to Meals on Wheels - this time she didn't resist the idea. Thanks

Only Me - perhaps you have given and update elsewhere about  your struggle to maintain some control over what is rightly yours. Could you let me know if you posted elsewhere? or perhaps you could post here when you feel up to it.

Les

[OnlyMe]

This is a great thread.  I, too, have been noticing that some of my NMom's antics are becoming more exaggerated and more frequent.  And I have been wondering if it is partly because I am increasingly more aware, or if she is exhibiting more as she ages.  For instance, tonite when I was on the phone, stroking her with compliments about how well she is doing on her own, she said "Thank you, you are the only person who can say these things to me, now...."  I know she literally needs her quota of flattery.

Horrors at the thought of N plus dementia - but you are very perceptive to notice the subtle changes.  I'll keep my radar tuned, and will let you know what I see.

ps: Les, yes, see the 'beware the troll' thread'  where I wrote a note the other day.  So happy you didn't leave the group!  I was tempted, but would be sucked into the NM's black hole if I didn't have this group to keep me alive and sane!

pps: and to the guest who suggested help:  Great ideas, and thank you -
she is living alone, is 85, with a rental car on a four-year lease which shows she has no intention of aging!  Reality does not apply to her.  But, we now have someone to clean, someone to garden and cut the grass, someone to clear the snow, someone to pick up and cart away the garbage, and have bought her that emergency button to wear around her neck, just in case she falls down and can't get up!  But, even though she has chosen a swanky seniors' residence, she has no intention of going into a place with Old People, yet.  However, she has also said that when she does, she intends to be on the Board of the place so she can have input into how it is operated!  Yes, she is a N, to the core, and way too independent to even consider leaving her home, yet.  
And yes, it seems they live a very long long long life............

[Avril]

My 76 year old NMother is extremely dependent.  Is this unusual, or are there others out there?  (On some level I guess all Ns are dependent - they need us to feed them their N-supply.)

My Dad did eveything for her - pandered to her every whim (was he some kind of inverted N??  Definitely some kind of co-dependecy thing going on there.  Still figuring that one out, though.)  Anyway, NM is basically a spoilt brat!

After my Dad died (April 2000), NMum came to live here (DAMN!  I should have followed my sister's example and moved to the other side of the world.)  For the first 4 months she lived WITH us, which was sheer HELL.     Even my very laid-back H said it was intolerable.  Now she has her own apartment in a retirement complex, where she manipulates the House Manager and anyone else she can.  She gets a 92 year old very frail old woman who walks with a frame to post her letters for her;  "It's alright, she has to go to the Post Office anyway."

Without Dad she is NOTHING, but she still manages to wield the power and see herself as important and special.  Or it flips over and she's the sorriest soul, the greatest martyr there ever was.  My aunt had to have half her leg amputated after a failed bypass operation.  NM's comment? ..... "It's OK for her, she's the sort of person that can deal with a thing like that!"     Meanwhile, we have to be so sympathetic about all NM's little aches and pains.

Sorry, starting to rant on a bit there.

For some time now, I've been wondering if NM is losing some mental functioning.  It's been hard to tell how much is down to her age, the bereavement or just being N.  Also, the more I grow to understand about NPD, the more I can see it at work in her.  Yes, I think it becomes more exaggerated with age.

  Great book:  'Why is it Always About YOU?'  by Sandy Hotchkiss
- has a chapter (now rather well-worn and dog-eared) 'Narcissism and Aging:the mirror cracks'.  The book outlines four coping strategies, then applies them to several different situations/circumstances.

The strategies are:  Know Yourself, Embrace Reality, Set Boundaries and Cultivate Reciprocal Relationships.  In other words: know what your 'buttons' are and be aware of when they're being pushed; be realistic about what you can achieve (in the case of dealing with the aging N, getting help bought in seems to be far better than trying to do it yourself!); set boundaries AND STICK TO THEM; and keep nurturing your support system of friends, relatives, anybody who understands - don't give yourself over to the N.

2 more excellent books that have helped me enormously:
'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward and
'When You and Your Mother Can't be Friends' by Victoria Secunda

I've been working hard for some months now, hungry to learn as much as I can about NPD and trying to find how to deal with my NM and come to terms with my situation (since Dad died, 'cos he was my shield).  I'm so, so, so glad to have found this message board now.  Thinking of all my reading, and imagining you all urging me on, I was finally able at the weekend to stand my ground, set my boundaries and say a firm "NO!" to a couple of NM's excessive demands (so like dealing with a small child!).  I was shaking afterwards and burst into tears as I put down the phone, but I did it!!!!!!!!

Oops!  Getting tearful again now at the thought of it.  OK, I've rambled on long enough!!

Thank you, thank you, thank you

Av

[les]

Go Av Go!  Just had to jot a quick note to congratulate you on defending your boundaries!  If she can get a 92 year old to do her bidding, I imagine you have to be on guard all the time!

Hi Only Me - I'm running out the door but wanted to say hi. Also wonder for your sake if you can wean your mother off some of the flattery.God, we all used to play right into it - still do of course, but less now and it feels good  (you knew that it would) I was looking into one of those buzzer things for my mother awhile back and then dropped it.  Could you tell me a little more about your mother's device. Thanks

Les

[Anonymous]

Just spent a week with my Nmom who needed surgery (dad is in a nursing home).  My sister was unavailable to get time off to fly across the country - so I got to fly to be with the mom.

She insisted (without my knowledge) that the hospital set up a bed for me to spend the night with her (grrr).  Of course, I could have left, but the guilt was there to spend the night on an awfully uncomfortable chair.

Although this was planned surgery, do you think the bed was made with clean sheets at home - not even.  There was no food in the refrigerator.  Fortunately, the house had been somewhat picked up.  Wound up doing on the shopping, filling the car, etc.

As the week progressed, she would ask me, "what should I make for lunch".  Interpretation - - - "what are you going to make me for lunch?"  After a day of this, I told her I wasn't hungry, but she could feel free to find something in the fridge (we went out to lunch).

Occupational Therapist and Physical Therapist came out and told her lifestyle changes to be made.  She must move out to a retirement home ASAP.  She must get up and walk around (she mostly likes to sit in a chair and do crafts, or monopolize people's time on the phone).  She was told to get a cell phone and to get one of those LifeLine buzzers in case she falls and breaks a hip.  She's determined they are too much money (she can pay for it).  

So my sister and my options are to call the doctor and tell him that she's making bad choices, and then pursue an attorney to declare her incompetent to care for herself (and then be hated even more for the rest of our lives), or just let her fall and break her hip because of her stubborness.  

I'm back home, but now the backbiting will start to the rest of the family.  It's good to be home!

[Singer]

Hi Les, OnlyMe, Avril and all,

The story with my 79 year old Nmother is similar to Avril's in that she was widowed in 2000 and my father had done everything for her for as long as he was able. I have come to believe that he might well have been an inverted N. I don't recall ever having a personal conversation with him; he was very reserved and distant but was able to focus completely on my mother. He took pride in her appearance and especially her ability to dominate social situations.

Since learning about NPD I've been able to step back quite a bit emotionally and I can see that although Nmom's behavior is just as self-absorbed as ever, she is showing signs of diminishing abilities especially loss of short term memory and the ability to focus on anything that doesn't directly pertain to her comfort. It's not exactly an exaggeration of NPD behavior, but more that her attempts to conform to any kind of norm are falling away and I can easily anticipate that there will come a time when she won't be able to function at all in a social environment. She can't cope with the everyday business of maintaining a house, or the logistics of doctor appointments and such, but adamantly refuses to consider a retirement community. She is too prone to rages to be able to assert herself without completely antagonizing the other party.

Although I feel sad for what is happening, thankfully my father left her with enough to afford senior care. Whether or not she'll be willing to do that is another story. I have a feeling she might just self-destruct before letting anyone tell her what to do. It's as if she's shaking her fist at age and time and defying them to get the better of her. It feels as though a crisis is looming, but I also know that she loves to create that feeling of imbalance and the sense of a drama with herself at the center.

Thank goodness for the internet, all of you, and the calm that comes with information and knowledge.

Singer

[OnlyMe]

I can hardly believe how similar our lives with our NParents are!  It is a struggle trying to cope with their old-age and the N, because either one is more than enough.  
What a comfort to be able to share what we experience and to learn from one another - and what a huge comfort to know that I am not the only one!  This is an important thread.  I read recently that a N needs even more reassurance when they age, and I seem to be dealing with that stage at the moment.  While NM has quite a few social contacts, she still seems to need my accolades.  But, yes, I am trying to wean her off slowly.  Haven't spoken with her today, so that is a big step - trying to skip a day now.  Whew.

Les, I sent you a PM with info on my Old Doll's personal alarm system - didn't want to advertise one type or another, trying to mind my Board manners!

[Moonflower]

....

[Singer]

...I am trying to wean her off slowly.  Haven't spoken with her today, so that is a big step - trying to skip a day now.  Whew

That was a big change for me too. I would try to maintain contact every day even when I knew that I'd only be allowing her to vent her anger. I stopped when I realized that I was probably doing more harm than good. In retrospect I see that my father not only tolerated her excesses, but was her best and most uncritical audience. Things might have been different if she hadn't had that. Or more likely she would have just recreated it somewhere else.

I still call her several times a week and try to see that she has food in the house, but beyond that I have refined the skill of zoning out when she launches into one of her vindictive monologues. She knows what I'm doing, but when called on it I play dumb. She's always been stronger willed than I am, and I think she fears that I might actually be selfish enough to become senile before she does. Might seem like stupid game playing, but it allows me to check on her even after she's hung up on me in frustration. I pretend not to notice.

Bottom line, I do care what happens to her; just don't feel so responsible anymore. I don't think she'd  risk damnation by actually taking her own life, ( love the briar patch reference, Moonflower) and breaking a limb will just land her in the nursing home she's bent on avoiding. So we're at an impasse of sorts, but there is strength in knowledge and the more I find out about NPD the better I feel able to cope. Even if coping means stepping back emotionally; maybe that's just something we're meant to learn. As an ACON I feel like I might fall into the trap of thinking that now she's old and it's my turn to be right for once. But that is a trap; I don't want to be right; just want peace of mind.

And that's why I think this thread is so important. As they reach the end of their reign, the last thing N's want to leave us with is peace of mind. So we'll just have to find it for ourselves, right?  

Singer

[Anonymous]

Wow!  I am getting so much support, information, affirmation from this thread.  I've re-read everybody's messages over again.

les said:

Go Av Go! Just had to jot a quick note to congratulate you on defending your boundaries! If she can get a 92 year old to do her bidding, I imagine you have to be on guard all the time!

thanks for your comments.  You've really hit the nail on the head when you say 'on guard all the time!'  It can be very wearing.

To Les, Singer and Moonflower especially (but also to others with whom I now resonate):
It feels so good to share with people who truly understand what life is like with an NMom.  Most people I talk to about her don't believe she can really be that bad, that I must be exaggerating, or I'm being really unsympathetic to my poor old Mom!  Those who meet her almost invariably describe her as "sweet" -     Yuck!! Sickly sick!  Makes me want to spit!

And Les, thank you for starting this thread.  It's something I need to work through at the moment, as I try to come to terms with NMom living nearby since Dad died and my increasing responsibility for her.  I hate it.  I really resent it!

I try to leave her to her own devices as much as I can, but as time goes by, there are things that she can't do for herself any more.  She's becoming more and more vulnerable and it really worries me: I keep thinking, "Things can only get worse."

I'm so glad she's in a semi-sheltered environment, with help on hand for emergencies.  So far she's resisting any other kinds of help we might buy in, but I'll keep trying from time to time.

Wow, Singer, I think I have a lot to learn from you.  I have found so much of what you say very helpful.  Thank you

Av

[Anonymous]

oops!  I was sure I had logged in,  but apparently not.
That was me above
Avril.

[Anonymous]

Hi Les,

Is your old doll still resistant to the nursing home idea? How far into dementia do you think she's gone? How much longer can you realistically care for her? Sorry about all the questions...hope they don't make you feel uncomfortable or anything. That is definately not the intention  

[Anonymous]

Hi -- Just wanted to say how similar my experience is with my aging NM. She has had a number of mini-strokes and has trouble with short-term memory -- gets confused and tries to cover it up, and also simply can't carry on a conversation about ideas for very long -- can't follow a logical thread.  Unfortunately, the brain damage seems to have loosened her social inhibitions -- during a visit, when kissing me good night she bit me on the cheek, then said it was a "love bite." She has also hugged me so hard it hurts and I can't breath. I hate her touching me in the first place and find it horrible -- I truly feel that she is trying to absorb me or suck my life force to keep herself going.

I have it relatively easy, as my father is still in good shape and takes care of her -- also, they don't live close by, thank heaven. But I think it's very hard on him. He never complains, but when they visit, he frequently goes off with my husband and leaves me alone with her -- oh, joy.  I think he needs the break and time to talk to someone who still has all their marbles.

At some level I feel sorry for her because I can see that she hates being old and is struggling to stay in control. She is adamant that she will never go into a senior's residence or home of any kind, and I dread the possibility of my father becoming ill or unable to look after her. None of the family live near them. The one thing I know for sure is that I will never have her come to live with us -- it would be impossible and would drive me mad. I can also see that based on her behavior now she could turn mean or even violent if her mental deterioration advances.

It's sad, but I know that for my own sanity there are limits to what I'll do for her. As others have said, the question is how to do that and maintain your peace of mind -- not feel guilty about it.

It's good to be able to share with others in the same boat.

Guest

[les]

There are so many things in the posts I'd like to respond to but still having trouble operating the quote option. Sheesh.  

Singer -  I agree, we do need to step back emotionally. It's a challenge to be sure since as one poster so brilliantly said somewhere- they made our buttons, installed them and so know exactly how to push them; that coupled with the natural instinct to take care of parents makes it a hard balancing act.  But sounds like we are all getting the hang of it.  

Last poster - thanks for the questions - actually there have been some new developments. A social worker is involved now. My mother is horrified, angry and insulted by this. But she brought it on herself by talking non-stop to every doctor she saw about how "depressed" she was. She may well be suffering from "clinical depression" as she tells everyone, particularly me, to milk it for all its worth.( I do know that depression is quite common in old folks but if you saw this oldie in action...) Guess she diagnosed herself! One geriatric specialist decided to send in the troops! I was there for the 2nd SW visit. At one point the SW said- "Are you the same woman I spoke to last week?" At this visit, NM was adamant that she was not depressed and was not going to be dumped in a home. The SW tried to explain that she was not there to do that but to just talk about how to enhance her life where she was. It was quite something to watch this very skilled SW struggle with all the different versions and realities that popped out.  NM is so combative. She told the SW that she wasn't depressed she was  reallyANGRY that at 91 she can't do the things she has always done. -almost stamp stamp, it's not fair, why me? "My daughter talks to me about "acceptance'(sneer). Well I will never accept it!"

 As always, NM only says what she thinks will score the most points and get her what she wants. Truth is a foreign notion. What is her emotional truth?   Actually when I think about that I feel a bubble of sympathy. But my empathy gland has been completely drained. sucked dry.

 There are so many of versions of reality, so many different personalities, it's so draining. Fortunately the SW saw this in action so I don't feel so alone with all this.  I need to hold the middle rational ground and not follow every NM statement through to the end - I think as Singer suggested -zone out.  I am rambling here so please excuse the length. Just one example, Nm said something she thought was extra brilliant and said," Sometimes I just amaze myself!" I just said, "Ok mom, I'll see you at 2." No reflecting back. Felt good.  

I spoke to the S.W afterwards and told her that it would kill me if I had to live with my NM. She reassured my that she had no intention of promoting  that solution!

[Anonymous]

Les said:

 

spoke to the S.W afterwards and told her that it would kill me if I had to live with my NM. She reassured my that she had no intention of promoting that solution!

Hey, Les. Do you think you would have had the guts to say that before coming to the board? Just wondering.