Narcissism and Mind Reading

[SilverLining]

Hi Everyone.   

Lately I've been grappling with a lot of weird claims from my mother to the effect that she can "read minds".   She has repeatedly congratulated herself for having wonderful social skills, the ability to read people, the intuition to recognize what people are thinking and their intentions.   She seems to believe she knows more about other people than they know about themselves. 

I decided to do a search on the internet and sure enough there has been some research on this topic.  Here's a big surprise:   Research has suggested that belief in one's ability to read minds can be a characteristic of narcissism.  It's a form of self-aggrandizement. Here's the paper:

http://academic.research.microsoft.com/Paper/5793931.aspx?viewType=1

A lot of the the paper is rather dry academic stuff, but the first paragraph gives a summary of the results.

So, I'm betting a lot of board members have dealings with N's who believe they can read minds?

[Guest]

Yes!
And they think that they are superb therapists too, I'm not joking, sadly.
They get a big kick out of thinking they know people inside out and can 'help' them. It really feeds the superiority hunger.
And sometimes it's difficult to see through that, if you're naive and vulnerable.

[Hopalong]

I'm glad this topic popped up, thanks Silver.
It gives me a chance to describe a particular red flag...maybe reinforce my confidence in this perception.

It's this: When someone is talking to me, who doesn't know me very well or perhaps hasn't really earned my trust...and they keep saying "You ____". With some remark about what I want, think or feel.

I absolutely freeze inside, or more accurately, recoil.

It's just a small language thing, but that construction suggests to me that someone is writing a script over me. Not seeing me. Or really, not being genuinely interested in who I am, but in some way using me as almost a prop.

I am sure I overreact to this. Just a particular phrase-sensitivity.

(And now I'm overcome with dread as I could swear I've done this to others right here countless times.)

AAACCK.

Hops

[mudpuppy]

She seems to believe she knows more about other people than they know about themselves. 

If I had a nickel for every time I've heard that particular conceit.......well, I still wouldn't have much money, but I'd have a couple of thousand nickels.

mud

[sKePTiKal]

OK - you guys are scaring me! Maybe I'm taking this "healthy ego" thing too far to the "dark side"...

what about the kind of intuitive "mind reading" skills that abuse victims develop as a self-defense and survival strategy? What I usually call my "radar"... that tells me someone might be a little "off"... or dangerous... or ???

Or working with a design client... who can't really express what they want and I listen "well enough" to hear what they're really trying to say? and a sketch seems to be "spot on"? (would that this happened at least 90% of the time)

Or seeing a look in my hubby's eyes and "knowing" what he's thinking and feeling? Or my D's?

Is this what she's claiming SL? Or is it the kind of thing where she can "see through" the person him - herself about who they are, what they "really" want, and "what kind of person they are" - almost paranoia based? Including people she barely knows?

Like I said... there are situations where one does develop a bit of skill at this, but it's never completely reliable. If she's claiming reliability - well, then - I think maybe I just tripped on the difference between these two kinds of intuition.

[Guest]

that someone is writing a script over me

nicely put Hops.

Amber, it's one thing knowing people well simply to lead an enjoyable, decent life, it's another to try and do it (or fool yourself that you can do it) so that you can attempt to control or manipulate people. Someone I know boasts quite openly about her ability to manipulate people to get them to do what she wants and she thinks this boast is clever and okay. And she knows how people tick so well! Sheesh. Oh and another used to 'know' what had happened to people in the news (who were missing, for example). Enough.

[Hopalong]

Ah well whew, I'm glad you made that comment, Guest...
because although I sure do sling around "you this" and "you that" all OVER here,
my motive is clear to me.

I do want to help people. And unless I'm in a particularly f**d up space, my intention is compassion.

Odd to me that I can do it so much myself while writing here (or with friends) but have it be,
in 3-D life, when it occurs face-to-face, such a significant red flag?

With a little more reflection, I think it's not actually the form itself ("You ____") that bothers
me. Kind things, or love or humor or support, can be expressed in that phrasing too.

I think it's when a person I already subtly (perhaps not always consciously) sense is controlling or hostile or manipulative or competitive uses that phrase...that's it. On some deeper level, ftf, I actually DO recognize someone with whom I need thick strong boundaries--

When they start in analysing me or telling me "You [want/think/feel/are...____]" I am
actually alarmed. I immediately sense danger, threat, something going off the rails in the
relating.

Probably an over-reaction but I think it really is signaling something when someone I work with
(or for) or someone I have trouble relaxing around anyway, starts making those "you" statements.

Hmmm. Reminds me of the basic "I message" technique, perhaps taken to an extreme but still
a revelation at the time, that I was taught in the 70s.

Anybody else tweaked by the "you message" thing?

Hops

[SilverLining]

Is this what she's claiming SL? Or is it the kind of thing where she can "see through" the person him - herself about who they are, what they "really" want, and "what kind of person they are" - almost paranoia based? Including people she barely knows?

Like I said... there are situations where one does develop a bit of skill at this, but it's never completely reliable. If she's claiming reliability - well, then - I think maybe I just tripped on the difference between these two kinds of intuition.

Hi Phoenix.    Yeah maybe where it crosses the line into narcissism is excessive belief in the reliability and accuracy of one's "intuitions", even in the face of disconfirming evidence.   If the N knows more about the other than they know about themselves, then there is no way the N's mind reading ability can ever be disproven.  If the other person claims to NOT be feeling what the N claims, well the other just isn't in touch with their real feelings /intentions.   A "normal" person is likely to be more humble in their intuitive claims, after being disproven many times.  

I used to believe my mother had fairly good social skills, so maybe she really does have some degree of "people reading" ability.  But lately the narcissistic edge has become exposed.  She's making claims even about people she barely knows.  And a lot of the claims are very paranoid and delusional.  She seems to be congratulating herself more on her mind reading ability, even as the validity of her claims is decreasing.   

[sKePTiKal]

SL - maybe she's trying to convince herself she's not totally "losing it"? By denying to herself and everyone else, that there's no way she could know? The possibility doesn't even exist - if it did - well, she'd be losing it... hard to know the whys, huh?

Hops - yes! the "you -------" statement is something that I struggle with a lot.

[Guest]

Hops and Amber: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzfrcPJinVY

[SilverLining]

SL - maybe she's trying to convince herself she's not totally "losing it"? By denying to herself and everyone else, that there's no way she could know? The possibility doesn't even exist - if it did - well, she'd be losing it... hard to know the whys, huh?

Yes I've suspected that denial could be a big part of it.   A couple of her friends got together and suggested she seek medical attention to deal with what they saw as behavioral changes in her, and that really got her going.  Maybe she detects that something really is wrong, and is trying to convince herself otherwise.   But I have to be careful not to conclude I can read her mind..    

[teartracks]

Hi SL,

But I have to be careful not to conclude I can read her mind..

  

No one can read another person's mind!  Why, sometimes I even have trouble reading my own.

tt

[Hopalong]

Oh what great lines...

you're cellophane
a purple night in Spain
the nose on the great Durante
the Inferno's Dante



thanks Guest...Cole Porter + Ella = amazing.

Hops

[SilverLining]

No one can read another person's mind!  Why, sometimes I even have trouble reading my own.

tt

Hey TT.  Isn't that the truth?   This whole minding reading thing has got me mulling over yet another dysfunctional dimension of my FOO.  I think back and I realize I don't remember either of my parents EVER asking me anything about what I was feeling or thinking.  They didn't seem to have a clue or even care.  All they ever dealt with were superficial formalities.  But here's my mother claiming she's a super skilled people reader and making crazy inferences about others.   Her main use of this supposed ability is self serving gossip, such as claiming people are "jealous" of her.  And I now recognize this has been going on for decades, it's just more exaggerated lately.  She's so good at reading people she doesn't have to ask questions.   

I feel like I was in some sort of fog for about 40 years.  I knew I could hardly stand to be around the family, but I couldn't quite pin down why..



     

[nolongeraslave]

My ex boyfriend (who I think is worse than my N mom and pedo step-dad) claimed to be psychic and predicted things.  Oddly, it did seem like he knew a lot or maybe he was just a master manipulator. 

My mom also claims to be very intuitive and says she knows what other people are feeling.  When you're naive (like myself), it's hard not think "well, they were right about this stuff..so maybe they're right about other stuff."