Not wanting to help - healthy or selfish?

[Twoapenny]

Hi all,

Sorry, more questions!  My sister left her husband about four months ago now.  She still has nowhere 'proper' to live (she is renting a room through work at the moment), still hasn't saved any money to get anywhere to live, still hasn't seen a solicitor to organise selling the house she owns with him or getting a divorce sorted out.  She has no car and asked me today to give her a lift to the supermarket, which is walking distance from where she is staying.  I said no.  Her three adult children - 18, 20 and 22, are all living on others' goodwill - sofas, spare bedrooms and so on.  Only one of them works.  Her daughter is pregnant, depressed, not working and has no money, other than money her boyfriend gives her from time to time. The youngest boy is boasting about sleeping with his girlfriend without using protection.

Normally I would feel like I need to deal with all of this, help, advise, offer loans, a place to stay, meals, help with looking for work and so on.  I have no desire to get involved, offer to do anything or even listen sympathetically.  What does this mean?  Am I getting really selfish?  Or is this a more normal response?  I'm in one of those situations where I don't know what 'normal' would be!

[Guest]

I wouldn't normally respond .....but...
sounds normal to me. All these people have choices and it seems they're choosing not to be responsible for (or with) their lives. Very sad, but there's not much you can do to get someone to take responsibility!

You also know these people and you've tried in the past. That's enough. Time to look after you.

[Hopalong]

Tupp...

you just don't have room to fix her.

You are fixing your own life, and your son's.

You just can't.

(Doesn't mean you wouldn't like to be brimming with strength and time and focus and resources you could lavish on her -- like watering a desert -- but you're not.)

I think it's sad about their situation/s, but I also think it's promising that you're not hooked by it.

Forgive yourself. Your detachment is natural. When you're drained, you're dry.

xo
Hops

[Meh]

I have mixed feelings about your question, I don't think the answer is simple, I think it's personal. In a well-functioning family (in my opinion) it is healthy and normal to help family. In an unhealthy family (IMO) people are estranged and distanced from each other.

[lighter]

I think you have to look at it like this, Tupp.

Are you helping or enabling her, as the goal?

If you were in that same position, you'd do things differently, and you'd get a job, walk to the store and manage things yourself.

Helping your sister might actually help her remain powerless and dependent, so.......

by saying NO, maybe you're forcing her to find her own underpinnings?

That's how I see it.

It's not like you aren't working, raising a young son on your own, renting your own place, caring for it, maintaining a vehicle and managing all the paperwork and responsibility that goes with. You do it.  So can she.

She's got nothing to care for, but herself, and letting her figure out how to do that isn't being cruel, IMO.

Enabling her dependence, might be.

Lighter

[BonesMS]

(((((((((((((((TwoAPenny))))))))))))))))))

As I was reading your description of the situation, I was thinking about what I learned in AlAnon regarding family members and friends who are dysfunctional...detach with love.  Your young son's welfare and needs have a higher priority than these adults who are demanding everyone else bail them out of their messes (that they refuse to accept responsibility for...and will continue to re-create repeatedly because they will continue to believe that others will clean up their messes FOR them). 

Your first and only responsibility is to your son.  You can't be the white knight on the steed, or Supergirl with the red cape, or Wonder Woman with the Magic Lasso, saving everyone else...especially if these others are ADULTS who flat-out refuse to take any responsibility for themselves and their own messes that they continue to create.  Where does it stop?  Where will they stop?

You're not being selfish.  You are being healthy and setting healthy boundaries AND you are teaching your son how to set healthy boundaries while being able to recognize your own human limitations.  He will be learning that no one is super-human, which is a good lesson we all need to remember.

Bones

[sKePTiKal]

No, Tupps - it's not selfish to have an instinct for self-preservation... to take care of you and yours first... it's a responsibility to yourself, to not spread yourself too thin. It's normal to wonder if giving help will actually, truly help... and to be a bit a reluctant to open yourself to expectations of more, more, more - sans clear boundaries.

Your sister needs to find her own motivation, get up and go, to help herself and figure out for herself what she needs, wants and go get it. I struggle with this, too - with my daughters. I have to constantly restrain myself from riding to the rescue because I have finally seen, that ultimately the message in that rescue is - I don't believe you can do this for yourself, so I'm going to do it for you. That contradicts what I really want - which is for them to develop the confidence in themselves that they can make good choices and take care of themselves. They really don't want Mommy hovering over them, helping, doing for them. One D in particular, judges herself way too harshly for actually needing help from time to time. Apple doesn't fall far from the tree...

What they DO want however, is to know that I care about their trials and tribulations. They do want the security of knowing that I want to help... but that I'm letting go of that process to enable them to spread their own wings, stand up for themselves, and will comfort them the best I can when it doesn't go the way they hope it will.

By standing aside, compassionately, you are helping your sister face, come to grips with, and begin to deal with her own responsibilities herself. That's not something one person can actually "give" to another - you can only point out the path (and only when asked) and then get out of their way.

That said, what Muffin said about normal families helping each other out - I tend to lean that direction too. And I want to help... but what I've learned the hard way is to wait until I'm asked - and then make sure both of us know clearly what's being asked for and to take a day or two to think about how I feel about it - to ask my own intuition whether I'm just being used or if I'm enabling, whether I can ask for a result from my help... whether that's a realistic expectation. And with my Ds, it's finally now possible to talk openly about that and also to explain my own limitations... because they are there and there are very real consequences of my "help" for me; there is always an impact on me. And the emotional ones are the most "expensive", I find.

[Twoapenny]

Wow you guys are always so good at this sort of thing.  It's like having a whole load of therapists to consult with!

Guest, thank you.  It sounds so different when someone else says it to you, rather than thinking it in your own head if that makes sense?  I felt bad refusing to take her to the supermarket.  If she'd been ill or something I would happily have done it (or if I'd been going anyway I wouldn't have minded picking stuff up for her).  But it would have meant re-arranging my plans to fit it in and I know she can get there without me.  I still felt bad though, even though I didn't think I was really being unreasonable.

Hops, thank you.  I actually feel like I'm on top of my situation at the moment, which is a real rarity.  A big part of that is that huge de-cluttering spree you encouraged me to go on.  It's really made life easier and given me more space in my head as well as my home.  But part of that is that I want to start having time for me again - I've not had that for so long now.  And I really want to preserve that time and make it important, because I'm always last on the list.  And that was what flashed through my head when she asked for a lift; I could have taken her when my son was out for two hours in the afternoon but I really wanted to sit with my feet up and watch a movie!  It still felt wrong?  odd? putting myself first.  But I think I should?  I just worry about getting like my mum and always putting myself first, whatever the situation.  I suppose it's about getting the balance right.  Thank you.

Muffin, I think that really sums it up.  I feel like I get drawn into other people's situations.  I don't want to do that anymore.  Thank you.

TT, I like that song!  Who is it by?  I didn't recognise the lyrics.  I get the idea of being in seasons.  Thank you.

Lighter, I think I need to read more about helping and enabling.  Maybe that is where I go wrong, because I muddle the two up?  Or just find it hard to differentiate, perhaps?  I see what you're saying though, none of them will sort themselves out if I try and do it for them.

Bonesie, I really like that idea of detaching with love.  That makes a lot of sense.  I suppose I look at them and I do see a lot of unhealthiness about them.  But I feel kind of bad because I feel like it wasn't their fault.  My sister was really badly abused and her husband was/is abusive as well, so her kids have grown up in a similar way.  I think that's why it's harder, because I can see why they do the things they do.  And like you say, it's harder to walk away from someone you love than someone you hate - and I do love my sis and her kids to bits, but gosh, they wear me out sometimes!  So it's time to put some barriers up.  Thank you.

Phoenix, I think what you said about waiting to be asked to help is something I should remember and keep in my head.  People know I am generally happy to help out and willing to lend a hand, and I'm pretty approachable, so it wouldn't be hard for them to ask for help.  I need to remember that and stop jumping in and doing things.  Thank you.

Thank you all of you, as always!  xx

[BonesMS]

((((((((((((((((((((((TwoAPenny))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Glad to help anytime!

FYI, about the song, "Turn, Turn, Turn", you are right, TT, that the lyrics came from the Book of Ecclesiastes.  Pete Seeger wrote the music and The Byrds made it a hit.

Bones

[Twoapenny]

Thank you for the song info I will have a look out for it

On the subject of families - aarrgghhh!  My sis and neice are arguing with each other via text again.  I have had repeated texts from both all morning about the other.  I called both - left a message for my neice saying she needs to talk to her mum directly and not keeping faffing around like this.  I had several missed calls from my sis so I rang her back and said the same thing to her - she burst into tears and hung up on me.

I am in the zone!!  I am sitting here feeling like I am in the wrong.  I know in my head I am not.  They need to sort this out together, not just keep having the same argument and contacting me about it.  I am busy during the day with my son and have a bad cold at the minute, which they both know about, but there is never any thought for me, my time or my situation.  So I am putting my boundaries up.  There is no point in me just agreeing with everything they both say, but this is what they both want.  My opinion is that they need to talk to each other about this and work it out between themselves.  It's not for me to tell them what to do, I think they have both been unreasonable with the other one at times and need to deal with that themselves.  That is basically all I have said to them, and I was calm and reasonable in my tone etc.  So in my head I know this is alright, but I have that old feeling of sickness in my stomach, fuzzy headedness, shakiness, the sense that I have been a 'bad girl' and I am being mean and selfish.  I know I'm not but my body is not catching up with my head!

I also know what will happen next.  Neither of them will contact me now.  If I don't contact them then they will say/think it's because I don't care, I'm not interested etc.  I love them both but I don't want to be part of this anymore.  My life has felt so much calmer and more ordered lately, so much more that it's mine rather than other people's, you know?  So I don't want to get involved in this big saga that's basically like two spoilt twelve year olds who need to be put in their bedrooms until they've learnt how to behave. 

Thank you all for listening.  I don't know where I'd be without you xxx

[sKePTiKal]

Maybe... the sick feeling is little Penny saying she doesn't want to hear or be involved in any more of this! She's put up with enough of it for one life time. The phrase that comes to my mind, is "Spare me the gory details - what are YOU gonna do about it?"

Because, their problem is not your problem, Penny. You're entitled to your feelings about all of it - even the one that wishes there was something you could do and being upset that they're not resolving it like adults. That's the empathy kicking in and your real caring and concern for each of them. But the feelings themselves don't obligate you to breaking up and settling the disagreement, do they? The role of "peacemaker" is one of those thankless jobs... and right now, since the fracas doesn't involve you... you don't have to volunteer yourself for a job that'll make Little Penny feel awful and scared again. Within your boundaries, you already have peace. Little Penny needs that.

Little Penny might also be wanting protection... And when Big Penny stands guard over those boundaries and keeps the arguing at a distance despite her concerns... you are providing Little Penny with one of the things she craves the most. That's probably a new and unfamiliar experience for her - being defended and protected and being able to trust that she is SAFE.

((((((((((Penny)))))))))))

It's OK. It'll be alright. Sis and D will work through this - their own way - and even if it's not the best way... they really have to do it all by themselves and you are not the default referree. They may not even hear your sound advice, you know? Not until they stop yelling at each other.

[Twoapenny]

Phoenix, thank you so much, I will keep reading and re-reading that.  I had forgotten about little Penny for a while now?  I'm not sure why, hadn't really noticed until you mentioned her just now.  I will ponder that!

A miracle just occured.  My sis texted me and apologised for hanging up the phone and said she loves me.  This has never happened before, it's always me that has to sort the problems out and make up after a row.  I nearly fell off my chair.  This boundary thing seems to be working??!!  Wow.  I am a bit shell shocked - I've changed my usual response to a situation, thought I'd made it worse - but it looks like it might have made things better?  I might need to go out for a little walk!!  Or have a lie down

Thank you Phoenix.  I'll probably write more after I've had a little think, my head is swimming a bit at the minute!  (((((Phoenix))))))

[BonesMS]

Thank you for the song info I will have a look out for it

On the subject of families - aarrgghhh!  My sis and neice are arguing with each other via text again.  I have had repeated texts from both all morning about the other.  I called both - left a message for my neice saying she needs to talk to her mum directly and not keeping faffing around like this.  I had several missed calls from my sis so I rang her back and said the same thing to her - she burst into tears and hung up on me.

I am in the zone!!  I am sitting here feeling like I am in the wrong.  I know in my head I am not.  They need to sort this out together, not just keep having the same argument and contacting me about it.  I am busy during the day with my son and have a bad cold at the minute, which they both know about, but there is never any thought for me, my time or my situation.  So I am putting my boundaries up.  There is no point in me just agreeing with everything they both say, but this is what they both want.  My opinion is that they need to talk to each other about this and work it out between themselves.  It's not for me to tell them what to do, I think they have both been unreasonable with the other one at times and need to deal with that themselves.  That is basically all I have said to them, and I was calm and reasonable in my tone etc.  So in my head I know this is alright, but I have that old feeling of sickness in my stomach, fuzzy headedness, shakiness, the sense that I have been a 'bad girl' and I am being mean and selfish.  I know I'm not but my body is not catching up with my head!

I also know what will happen next.  Neither of them will contact me now.  If I don't contact them then they will say/think it's because I don't care, I'm not interested etc.  I love them both but I don't want to be part of this anymore.  My life has felt so much calmer and more ordered lately, so much more that it's mine rather than other people's, you know?  So I don't want to get involved in this big saga that's basically like two spoilt twelve year olds who need to be put in their bedrooms until they've learnt how to behave. 

Thank you all for listening.  I don't know where I'd be without you xxx

(((((((((((((((((((TwoAPenny)))))))))))))))

With the situation of both of them texting you about their current conflict, it sounds like the same old Triangulation Dance!  (Been there, done that regarding dealing with people who attempt to force me to side with them against their current enemy.  BLEH!!!   )  Don't you just LOVE that sick waltz???  NOT!!!!!

I agree with you that their fight is not your battle.  They both need to go to their rooms and stay there until these two overgrown children can figure out how to behave themselves and NOT suck you into the middle of their mess!

Bones

[Twoapenny]

Bones you are absolutely right, I hadn't thought of that.  My neice was being very clear that it was my sister who was in the wrong, but when pushed for details went quiet and I haven't heard from her since.  I've not heard from my sister today either - it's silly because it makes me feel anxious that I haven't heard from them but I must get past this and ride it out otherwise it won't change and I'm just too tired of all this sillyness.  I think what's been bothering me is that, apart from the fact that I have been struggling (for years!), I've three friends at the minute who are being screened for cancer - people with real problems and worries and not this silly nonsense about who said what and where!  I've kept my phone on silent just in case so I don't get disturbed by it and I'm keeping the door locked! 

Thank you (((((((((((((((((((((((Bonesie))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

[BonesMS]

Bones you are absolutely right, I hadn't thought of that.  My neice was being very clear that it was my sister who was in the wrong, but when pushed for details went quiet and I haven't heard from her since.  I've not heard from my sister today either - it's silly because it makes me feel anxious that I haven't heard from them but I must get past this and ride it out otherwise it won't change and I'm just too tired of all this sillyness.  I think what's been bothering me is that, apart from the fact that I have been struggling (for years!), I've three friends at the minute who are being screened for cancer - people with real problems and worries and not this silly nonsense about who said what and where!  I've kept my phone on silent just in case so I don't get disturbed by it and I'm keeping the door locked! 

Thank you (((((((((((((((((((((((Bonesie))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

You're welcome, (((((((((((((((((((((((((((TwoAPenny))))))))))))))))))))))))))))