Author Topic: The demise of talk therapy in psychiatry: New York Times article  (Read 6172 times)

teartracks

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Re: The demise of talk therapy in psychiatry: NYT article
« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2011, 04:01:48 PM »


You know Dr. G., I live in a small town.  I can change my status in the eyes of the religious community simply by choosing to attend a different church.  I can attend a blue collar church or I can attend one where the income and education level is higher and gain a higher status.  So I guess status can be very fluid or very rigid.  Status can be bestowed or sought after.  I use church/religion as an example for several reasons.  1.  If I were on the outside of 'religion' looking in, I think I would expect religious organizations/institutions to have a uniform character where status wasn't a player.  In reality, that has never been the case with religion, but I used to think it was.  Status is probably regarded as highly there as in any other group  although some would have you believe differently.  3.  I'm familiar with 'church'/religion.  Edit in:  Others could easily have a similar experience by moving to a more expensive neighborhood or becoming a member of an expensive club, etc.  Or by wearing North Face apparel.
  
Considering all that, it makes me wonder if there is a kind of reverse denial (if there is such a term) where claiming to have no interest in status simply becomes another kind of status.  I don't know.  I'm just talking off the cuff.  I think my point is that status wears so many faces, it is impossible to separate it from life at any level.  Studying its implications on humanity would be a tedious undertaking.

I believe the human brain can be rewired, at least to some degree.  I believe some rewiring has occurred in my brain not spontaneously, but because in a nano second, (that's pretty spontaneous come to think of it) I became accutely aware of a glaring chasm between what/who I was compared to who/what I beleived I was meant to be and made a passionate, committed decision to reconcile, remodel, renovate those differences.  Ah, that nano second may have been the beginning of the rewiring! There had to be a moment of congruance, a cross roads where the two ways of being duked it out. [/q] But in my view, we, as a group, are very unusual. I have not found this pursuit underlying the motives of the population at large— [q]  I think you are right.  The mystery to me is why the experience appears to be somewhat rare.  I believe I could have missed that deciding moment in the blink of an eye.  If that were the case, I would have been beguiled by a lesser solution.  

tt

PS  I think I should tell you that having this exchange with you kind of gives me 'status' in my own mind, but my reproductive juices haven't resurrected! :lol:

PSS  I don't mind the elites being elite.  It's just that I made a judgment, largely uninformed I suppose, that the article on the demise of talk therapy didn't apply to me.    
« Last Edit: March 22, 2011, 10:17:44 PM by teartracks »

river

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Re: The demise of talk therapy in psychiatry: NYT article
« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2011, 04:41:13 PM »
Thanks for this.  Your angle on Frankl is interesting to hear, because I havent actually heard well thought out criticisms of him, mostly he's just ignored.    Well, I could answer your points (of course), me being a Frankl ite.  But importantly, Im very clad to be counted amongst your kind of group, including the golden retrievers.   
Quote
   have not found this pursuit underlying the motives of the population at large
Thats for sure, otherwise the world would be in a better state. 

Quote
   
 
 He was able to do something—find meaning—in (and after) circumstances that almost no one else could. 


What he argues is that it is meanings and values that are a vital health-giving resource
 He said that some people behaved like swine and some like saints under those circumstances, but he was able to bring people back from the brink of despair by helping find thier own unique reason to try to survive, such as a task, or a person,  for whom they were irreplacable.   Which, as I see it,  is also an anti-dote to the narcissistic principle - that other humans are disoposable as soon as they are no longer useful, or no longer Narcissistic  supply.   

Guest

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Re: The demise of talk therapy in psychiatry: NYT article
« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2011, 08:27:45 PM »
TT
Quote
The mystery to me is why the experience appears to be somewhat rare. 

People generally (what an awful phrase) don't find themselves in psychic circumstances that are painful enough? I don't think it's something anyone would choose, without knowing the outcome (and being sure of it: impossible).

Richard - you are not a humanist?
Hops - you're not a believer in laws of attraction?
What next? Mud - you are a venture capitalist?
Or perhaps my memory and understanding are not what they used to be. Or perhaps the given 'world' is shifting and sliding around me and under my feet. Well that would be a change.....not.
Okay, I've updated my data files. Everything can, of course, be overwritten.

Status. Thank goodness in this wonderous online age I can at least update my status. Now we can all be ignored at the speed of light (Scott Adams, not me).

sKePTiKal

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Re: The demise of talk therapy in psychiatry: NYT article
« Reply #18 on: March 23, 2011, 05:28:18 PM »
Quote
it makes me wonder if there is a kind of reverse denial (if there is such a term) where claiming to have no interest in status simply becomes another kind of status.

Yes, tt - I can verify that this does, in fact, exist... and also that piousness or obsession with spirituality, often becomes it's opposite.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

teartracks

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Re: The demise of talk therapy in psychiatry: NYT article
« Reply #19 on: March 23, 2011, 07:52:59 PM »
Hi PR,

Things that make you say, huh!  

Seriously though,  conversations like this make me think about and question how pure my own life mix is more than those around me.

tt

Hi Guest,

we don't have to prove it allll the time and in public, do we?

I'm still putting on Aloe! on :lol:  Ouch!

tt

« Last Edit: March 24, 2011, 12:17:40 PM by teartracks »

sKePTiKal

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Re: The demise of talk therapy in psychiatry: NYT article
« Reply #20 on: March 24, 2011, 09:55:47 AM »
I agree, not so much off topic, Guest...

because I can imagine how psychiatry will adopt the use of drugs to alter the brains of many many people until it becomes almost criminal to seek out a drug-free solution to our human condition... and then, all the talk-therapists will have to meet "underground" and pretend publicly that they don't even recognize their patients...

... and in 50 years, someone will spend tons of money studying the effectiveness of alternative (talk) therapies and the DSM folks will propose that this just might be a more long-term, effective treatment than drugs... and some librarian will "discover" how applicable Freud and Jung's rare and "ancient" work is to "modern dilemmas"... and higher ed will begin to popularize this kind of training for therapists...

... and the wheel turns another 180 degrees on the circle again.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

Guest

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Re: The demise of talk therapy in psychiatry: NYT article
« Reply #21 on: March 24, 2011, 11:21:48 AM »
reminds me of 100 years of solitude...

sKePTiKal

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Re: The demise of talk therapy in psychiatry: NYT article
« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2011, 08:00:56 AM »
combined with The Glass Bead Game...

it's been awhile; I should re-read both of those.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

BonesMS

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Re: The demise of talk therapy in psychiatry: NYT article
« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2011, 08:05:38 AM »
Hi river,

Frankl was an extraordinary human being—and I think that, in part, is the problem with his beliefs about human nature.  He was able to do something—find meaning—in (and after) circumstances that almost no one else could.  I, and you, and perhaps many others who come to this board find the pursuit of meaning one of the most important goals of life.  But in my view, we, as a group, are very unusual.  I have not found this pursuit underlying the motives of the population at large—nor would this pursuit seem to make evolutionary sense.  (The pursuit/discovery of meaning would not lead to more children, or more resources to take care of them.  I’ve certainly discovered this (!)  Frankl, himself, if this is any measure, had only one child [I believe].)

This is in part, why I don’t consider myself a “humanist”.  The species has too many disturbing genetic qualities!  Rather, in my life I have tried to gather a small group of very special people together, my family, my patients, my friends, you and the rest of this group, (and of course my Golden Retrievers—Watson, and then Beau—who, everyone else complains receive too much attention) in the attempt to pursue meaning (love—in Frankl’s terms), do a little good, and not feel alone.

Richard


I hear you, Dr.G!

Bones
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Guest

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Re: The demise of talk therapy in psychiatry: NYT article
« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2011, 12:09:51 PM »
combined with The Glass Bead Game...

it's been awhile; I should re-read both of those.

Haven't read TGBG Amber, thanks!

TT

I think I made myself 'ouch' with the possible imagery.  :o