Author Topic: N damage: Itentional & Unintentional  (Read 18048 times)

Gaining Strength

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N damage: Itentional & Unintentional
« on: March 20, 2011, 12:14:51 PM »
I am starting this topic as a dual discussion of the role of intentionality in the degree of damage done by the N in comparision to the damage done unintentionally in a general sense AND of the role in my own (and I hope in your own) life in particular.

As I move through and into the aftermath of my father's death and life I am gleening a difference between the Narcissism of my father and my mother.  Much of my father's psychological brutality came from intentional manipulation (in his own word "intiimidation") but in contrast it is being revealed to me that much of the damage from my mother's narcissism comes from her unintentionally and from her utter refusal to take responsibility for herself or others and, at times, the combination of the two.  For reasons I cannot yet understand, the damage from her is more provacative than the damage from my father.  Though I do experience the damage from my father daily.  I experience it in a number of ways including the expectation and anticipation of criticism and rejection (and humiliation) and the internalized perfectionism that results in my in a paralysis of which I have written more here in these pages than I care to even admit.

I do know that as that source becomes more and more evident that it will indeed begin a process of dissolving, (however fast or slow it may be it will not be fast enough.) The great gift of this post-mortem process is that my fear of never being able to access the part of me that functions and longs to function is fast subsiding and true hope is growing stronger that I will at long, long last be able o actualize those things and interests that have been mere longings in my soul and the ruinous, abandoned, impetuous attempts to participate in this earthly life in any meaningful way.

It has been such a long and painful journey - no words or even stirrings can come close to conveying.  But what better time of year than this for these beginnings.  It is no coincidence but also no contrivance that I am writing this on the first day of spring.

I look forward to many long musings and working out of splinters (rather than whole logs) here across the days, weeks and months ahead. I hope that as many of you as are moved to will join in writing about your own experiences of intentional or unintentional damage or any thoughts you might have about the topic - in general or in particular.  Yours, GS

teartracks

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Re: N damage: Itentional & Unintentional
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2011, 10:02:00 PM »




Hi GS,

in comparision to the damage done unintentionally in a general sense

Do you mean the unintentional damage done by non N's who are doing their best to do life right in the general population?

tt


sKePTiKal

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Re: N damage: Itentional & Unintentional
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2011, 09:23:43 AM »
Quote
... I will at long, long last be able o actualize those things and interests that have been mere longings in my soul and the ruinous, abandoned, impetuous attempts to participate in this earthly life in any meaningful way.

You will, GS... I know you will. Remember, tho - small steps add up to the whole journey to a specific destination, so don't set your own inner "success/failure" meter for each day based on what the ultimate goal is... when I do that, I tend to self-criticize myself for failing when the process is simply not at the point where it can be judged success/failure.

One tends to miss a whole lot of important stuff along the way, "one" here being my ownself.

Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

river

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Re: N damage: Itentional & Unintentional
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2011, 08:04:52 PM »
Dear GS,
What a lovely post, and a really deep subject, one I have thought  about too. 
Quote
a difference between the Narcissism of my father and my mother.  Much of my father's psychological brutality came from intentional manipulation (in his own word "intiimidation") but in contrast it is being revealed to me that much of the damage from my mother's narcissism comes from her unintentionally and from her utter refusal to take responsibility for herself or others and, at times, the combination of the two.  For reasons I cannot yet understand, the damage from her is more provacative than the damage from my father.   
I have often thought that a lack of responsibility is like  the magician's 'slieght of hand', in other words, the one that 'fails to take responsibility' somehow causes things, but it doesnt exactly look  like it was their fault, but I think that enabling, and failing to take a stand, or be responsible is just as much being a participant as the manifest behaver.   Often the 2 are in collusion.  And where one is out and in the open, somethimes physical, the other is more hidden, or is 'closet' and I suspect can get under the defences all the more. 
 My mother was a 'closet narcissist' in the definition of Masterson, and one of the ways I was driven to deal with the affects of this  was that I 'fell in love' with the outrageous, chaotic blatent narcissistic kinds.  I found the hidden destruction was so pernicious that this was a p;sychic attempt to 'out' the toxic dynamic, into the open.    In the end, of course toxic dynamic is toxic no matter whether hidden or blatent.  but i was driven and inconsolable, driven by a splinter that I didnt understand, and i wanted to 'out'. 

Hopalong

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Re: N damage: Itentional & Unintentional
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2011, 09:43:22 PM »
Quote
My mother was a 'closet narcissist' in the definition of Masterson, and one of the ways I was driven to deal with the affects of this  was that I 'fell in love' with the outrageous, chaotic blatent narcissistic kinds.  I found the hidden destruction was so pernicious that this was a p;sychic attempt to 'out' the toxic dynamic, into the open.    In the end, of course toxic dynamic is toxic no matter whether hidden or blatent.  but i was driven and inconsolable, driven by a splinter that I didnt understand, and i wanted to 'out'. 

River--
Thank you for this.

Wow.

You are a rocket, woman. I can't remember what you're studying (majoring in) but whatever it is, you're going far.

xo
Hops
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river

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Re: N damage: Itentional & Unintentional
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2011, 04:42:37 PM »
Hops, that made me smile ~ and tear up a bit too~! 

r. 

sKePTiKal

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Re: N damage: Itentional & Unintentional
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2011, 08:30:58 AM »
Quick idea for ya, GS... I don't have much time this a.m.

The "unintentional" damage is much worse because it's:

 - harder to see
 - the opposite of the words coming out of X person's mouth
 - and from a person that under all circumstances, all the time... we are programmed to expect and belief and trust will have our best interests at heart (obviously, the programming can have "bugs" in it)

 - this amounts to a betrayal; a loss; and that weird feeling in the pit of one's stomach that we feel when we find out we've been tricked; or cheated; or violated.

"Intentional" is slightly easier... because it's straightforward "intimidation"... it's not got this brass knuckles in a velvet glove deceit going on...
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Gaining Strength

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Re: N damage: Itentional & Unintentional
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2011, 11:18:43 PM »
TT - what I am thinking about has to do with what I am learning about the difference between the way my two parent's Nism manifested and the difference in the damage done by each.  My father had a large factor of intentional cruelty and intimidation, my mother functions more like a narcissistic child - not calculating but self-absorbed none-the-less.

Gaining Strength

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Re: N damage: Itentional & Unintentional
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2011, 11:22:49 PM »
river - your post is painful for me to read.  I so deeply connect with what you are writing.  It feels like such wretched, inconsolable injustice to me.  I would like to read more and moe of what you have to say about your experience or your thoughts on this subject.

Gaining Strength

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Re: N damage: Itentional & Unintentional
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2011, 11:24:16 PM »
Pr, pr, pr - you are so, so right.

teartracks

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Re: N damage: Itentional & Unintentional
« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2011, 12:34:20 AM »




Thanks GS, for helping me understand.  I'm thinking on it...

tt



sKePTiKal

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Re: N damage: Itentional & Unintentional
« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2011, 03:36:27 PM »
OK GS... your turn!

Can you elaborate yet? Put words to your experience and how important the difference is for you? (and I guess I mean, how the difference is important for you... not the other way round)

I think the difference is important for me, too... and I'm wondering what insights you've gotten so far. For my part, I seem to be fighting the same battle, struggling with the same thing, over & over & quixotically over yet again. So many times, I gain another inch of insight from how you see your own struggles...

WHY is it, it's so much easier to see "what to do", the explanation, or the solution... when it's someone who is not ourselves? I think someone did a study on this... and it's supposed to be (presumed to be) a fairly common human trait.

TIA (thanks in advance)
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river

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Re: N damage: Itentional & Unintentional
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2011, 06:52:39 AM »
river - your post is painful for me to read.  I so deeply connect with what you are writing.  It feels like such wretched, inconsolable injustice to me.  I would like to read more and moe of what you have to say about your experience or your thoughts on this subject.

Gosh, thank you so much for this.  Would it be helpful for you to say more about how its painful for you?   

Actaully, I do have a long-held desire to write about all this type of thing one day, but how I'd like to do it is by collections of people speaking of their experiences, and I wanted to ask you if I could keep your post for a potential writing one day?   As what you're saying here is, I think important.   
Theres a quote here, which may have some bearing too....

Quote
    “It is true that the damage from not being protected is often greater than the damage of sexual assault”.  p.174 in Protecting the Gift  by Gavin Debecker 


Gaining Strength

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Re: N damage: Itentional & Unintentional
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2011, 10:36:00 AM »
Oh goodness PR - how the difference is important to me is a good question.  I'm not sure where to start - with your question or what I came here with on my mind.  Maybe I'll simply intertwine them.

I have a day off - my precious child is visiting my sister-in-law and her children in FL.  We are having a cold snap and I am snuggled up in an empty, quiet Starbucks.

I just received a text from my FL brother that he has received a shipment of furniture and 6 boxes from my late father's wife.  She lives right behind me.  I can see her house from mine.  She never mentioned a word of this to me.  I know one of the piece of furniture is a desk in which I had carefully place several items that I wanted and mentioned it to her as I did so over a series of days and weeks. 

I have come to see that dealing with her is much like dealing with both of my parents.  She is a dreadful mix.  Part of what she does in intentional and part is oblivion. All is without regard or concern of those around with a self-smug attitude that she is doing "FOR" others, acting selfless.

The other day, Friday, to be exact, I was sitting quietly and flashed back to the last days of my father's life.  He was experiencing a mild delirium, in and out, making sense and not making sense, but one thing that he held to for days on end was a request from me to take him to a local toy and hobby store.  He wanted a model and a puzzle.  Friday, I was remembering how (unaware at the time) I longed to please him, how I longed to be able to scoop him up out of the bed, load him in my car and take him and together pour over the selection until the right one was found.  I longed to please him. I longed to connect with him.  I went alone, selected a model - torn because I wanted to get the Korean war tank but it was too complex for his stroke altered dexterity so I selected a WWII airplane that snapped together.  There was no puzzle that was appropriate.  The ones with pieces large enough for altered hand motion was juvenile in image so I left them all in the store.

But on Friday, it was not what I selected that stood out it was the longing, the never ending longing to please that returned to me.
Take that piece of puzzle and put it into the framework that was given me in the hospital days leading up to these when I learned from the Dr. that my father had used intimidation to control people, mesh it together with my experience of him in which he tolerated only those whom he could intimidate, those who would kowtow to his outrageous, demands whom he would in time reward financially. 

It was only in our 30s that my brothers and I no longer gave into his increasingly crazy demands but we always did it with great sorrow but he threw us out of his life like soiled bathwater unless some particular thing came along the he thought he could control us with again. 

Because I did not automatically fall in line to his intimidation, I have learned that he would say truly horrible things about me to people, that he would intentionally besmirch my character and reputation.  My own father.  All the while, I longed to be able to connect, to have that father "back" that I thought he had been as a child.

So here is how that relationship breaks down.  The father, intentionally, intimidating his own child - as a 4 year old, a teenager and as an adult.  The child, (in decreasing quantities) longing, needing to respond.  As a child the need was a survival need, as a teen it slipped into a need to understand how to function in our world, to flourish, looking to my role model who had flourished, and as an adult a mere longing for connection and help in very difficult times.  At all times, totally unaware that the way to "receive", "connect" was only to be a shilll, to sell my soul.

But looking back - one of the greatest pains still is that no one cares to understand how horrendous it is and it was to have a father who truly had no love for his children - ZERO.  That pain is so great.  It is indescribable.  And those few people who seem to ask I find out really don't want to know.  When I begin to explain or describe I am told, in essense, to move on. 

It is not possible to MOVE ON.  It takes someone, anyone listening, hearing and affirming the reality that most humans simply don't want to hear.  My mother doesn't want to discuss it.  My eldest brother no longer speaks to me ( I finally figured out it is due to his wife - all these almost 30 years it has been his wife) and my elder brother is in another world but

[interrupted - to be continued]

sKePTiKal

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Re: N damage: Itentional & Unintentional
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2011, 01:36:16 PM »
OH MY...

I already want to respond to some things. But I think I'm going to hold off and wait to see where you're going, when you continue.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.