N-Counsleor (NSaint)

[Gaining Strength]

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Minimization is a defense,

Yes - very good point.

I call that progress.

me too - great progress.

Gabben - your second post about minimization is stunning.  Very difficult to take in.  Just reading those few short lines has my chest contracting.  I do see your point but my being aches and is screaming in pain for that 4 year old you.  Incomprehensible.  Quite overwhelming. 

I can imagine that if I were your grandmother I would have to minimize in order to live with myself.

[Gabben]

Hi GS,

Thanks again for compassion and heartfelt empathy, it shines through and helps affirm the pain of the memory no doubt up from this last round of sifting.

I'm 43. When I was 28 I had my first real trigger of the abandonment memories which almost seemed to just explode into my awareness. It happend, the memories coming up, by dating someone who I was super attracted to but who dumped me. Up until that point in my life I had never been in love nor allowed anyone who I could love into my heart. But I did with this guy. When I was dumped I was gutted and incapacitated, unable to even move physically for one week; I vomited for the first day and had to take cold showers for a couple of days to cool my burning flesh off. Knowing that my response to this guys dumping me was way over exaggerated I immediately sought out therapy, finding a very good one who was capable of therapeutic love for me and really wanted to see me heal. I worked with him, sometimes intensively, for over 5 years.

Over the years the pains of my abandonment have come up in layer after layer with dimensions and folds, twists and turns, still a deeply hardwired melt of shame and fear into my brain and heart thus coloring my world for most of my life and seeping out either in dysfunction or seeping out in painful memories which I had to embrace, the way out being through.

Just when I thought that I had put the trauma behind me a new old untold story emerges. This weekend it was the story of sorrow I felt as a child in watching other children receive love from their parents while I was in the desert of orphanhood. It locked down in me deep envious feelings/sorrow at the good of others. I have loved the good of others and embrace the good of others; I am not a envious person. But what I think what caused my aunt and uncles children and them to react to my pain with a finger point at me of shame at my envy/sorrow was that when others envy it threatens. The envy of others feels threatening to the degree that we feel insecure. Perhaps my sorrow at others good stirs in them an intuition of threat that I might reach for the sweet food they posess, their parents love, taking it away from them or wrecking it in some way. I am sure that my cousins felt threatened by my sister and I being there, the wounded suffering children that suddenly just showed up taking a piece of the pie out of the pan of their parents love.

The story of untold drama's resurface for a real telling. This was a story that I never could voice as a little girl. At four years old how would I find the words to say, "I want what you have, I want love, the sweet wonder of being the apple of someone's eyes like you, my cousins, have in your parents love!" I want to be someone special to someone, my parents, and I am resentful and sad that I cannot have what I want  as well as I have to sit and stare at it all day long, I have to face or see your good as I go starving!!"

It evokes the pain, or sorrow at the good fortune of others is that when I was a child, abandoned at my aunt and uncles house who had four small kids of their own, I felt envious of my cousins getting to have real parents, and, then, instead of having the sorrow that was under my envy addressed in compassion, (for my envy was just a mask of my complicated grief and loss), my aunt and uncle as well as the cousins would push me away or make me ashamed for being envious or unhappy at their good.





The interesting discovery for me in this story is that I was happy at their good, I felt it but it still was a reminder of the deep loss of my good which was just wanting some empathy and compassion so as to get it out from being stuck in so that I could open my heart to the good.

Talk about minimizing, talk about a lack of empathy. They were being fed and I was starved but instead of acknowledging the obvious, at least to me, of my loss they acknowledged what I had already felt about myself, that I was bad and wrong they just rubbed it in my face more. It is hard to articulate but it was simply being stoned for feeling sorrow for not having a mom, a brush off and minimization of my loss. I think that people can be really selfish and shallow, just as I had been once.

[river]

    I reported her a long time ago, just as you said. I was told to write out my story with her and send it to the Board of Behavioral Science. I did this,  but her response was that we were doing spiritual direction and not therapy, which I do believe now to be true but the principals and lines she crossed where still damaging to me. I let it go, just feeling good to be able to voice out my pain as well as know that at least it is on record for if and when someone else gets hurt in her care and files a complaint.

........... I think you couldnt have done better, you did what you could and got ouit of the way, and what you could was to leave it on record, and it will then potentiate others if they complain.  Good going Gabben. 

Just reading your post about envy, its so good that you share that too, as its such an unfashionalbe emotion to have, so many people will just try to correct you if you have the courage to share that particular feeling.    Not here perhaps, but in many places.   

[Gabben]

River,

I like how you put that, speaking so openly about envy is not "fashionable." I guess I do not think so much about what is fashionable as much as I used to. I no longer see my image as something to grapple with in order to get results. In other words my face has died quite a bit, I live more from my heart. if envy is in my heart than I am going to face it rather than try to efface it with denial or pride.

There is an antedote to every problem. Pride, greed, envy, etc, are the things we all struggle with, the problems. In facing them I am only serving to free myself from their grip on my life. Pride is voice, envy is a voice, greed is a voice, they all speak to us. Pride likes to tell me that I am well and perfect and need no longer look or face myself. Greed tells me that I need things I do not need and envy speaks a voice of sorrow at what I see others have that I do not. They are the roots of my dysfunction and partly the road maps to getting out of the jungle or swamp of dysfunction.

[river]

        In other words my face has died quite a bit, I live more from my heart. if envy is in my heart than I am going to face it rather than try to efface it with denial or pride.

There is an antedote to every problem. Pride, greed, envy, etc, are the things we all struggle with, the problems. In facing them I am only serving to free myself from their grip on my life. Pride is voice, envy is a voice, greed is a voice, they all speak to us. Pride likes to tell me that I am well and perfect and need no longer look or face myself. Greed tells me that I need things I do not need and envy speaks a voice of sorrow at what I see others have that I do not. They are the roots of my dysfunction and partly the road maps to getting out of the jungle or swamp of dysfunction.
         

hmm!  I want to say something, but you said it all here.   ! : )   
Just one thing though, when working back to look at your own issues, or defectts, I imagine you went through a stage of acknowledging the part others played in what happened, I mean with Ns its often important to get clear about it~ ?  I mean at the same time as not dwelling on the victim position? 

[Gabben]

River,

I hope I address your question here. I think the idea is that we all have N traits, flaws defects etc. What is interesting for me about this N is that for so long I really thought that she was perfect. Once I asked her in proud amazement of her if when she went to confession she ever had to confess anything because as I told her she seemed to be perfect, nothing coming out of her mouth that was ever unloving and she did not have any addictions or especially anger. As time went on in our relationship I did start to notice fear was a big issue for her, in that was one of the first red flags, being a woman of faith I found her at times to get lost in obsessive worrying. But still I would rationalize this red flags away by justifying her in that she was just a super caring person or she would not worry so much. There is a difference between worry and love. Love does not worry.

Eventually,  as time went on and more re flags revealed her not to be the person she pretended to be, it got hard, and still is, to sort through what was my stuff and
what was hers. But that is telling about me to me, that I would even take the time to be that integrible and own my own dirt so to speak. That I would even question myself so whole heartedly in wonder if I was the one who was really wrong. N's sense something is wrong, but they are certain that they are great or just too darn super wonderful ( this idea driven by their false image) to be the one in the wrong, therefore they just point the finger back at the thier victims. It is the difference between P's and N's. P's know what they are doing, they are not hiding it from themselves or believing their own lies, they know they are without love and concious but N's are so in love with their image and so fixated on their face and feeding that face they cannot see what is in their heart, their true motives.


I have spent much time learning who I really am, flaws and all. I also do not malign people, back-stab viciously as this woman has. I struggle viscously with forgiveness of her as well as hatred of her for so long. I have let it go and then another layer comes up, which is usually about my own childhood unfinished business more than her. She has just been the tool that God has used to sift me so to speak.

If and when we ever meet again, I would first apologize to her for objectifying her, saying anything about her in return to others, my own slander; in effect I would try to help her in seeing that I too am human and struggle with all the human weakness in hope that it might make it easier for her to face herself.

But until then I just prayer for her which continues to wash away the poison of resentment and old hurt that I took rather than her. It works it really does.

The thing that remains is my frustration in knowing and seeing her continue to lead others astray in ways that are so subtle but very hurtful as I once experienced with her. I know that I am not alone in this.  But I have done all that I can so I am free in terms of it not being my responsibility anymore. Bless her I say everyday, about ten times, over and over again until it finally sinks into my bones.

[Gaining Strength]

The whole issue of jealousy is one I have been thinking about quite determinedly. 
I have been aware for fa few years that I was acting out of a profound sense of bitterness and jealousy.
Recently, as recently as yesterday afternoon in fact, I was digging underneath that jealousy and seeing that
it has always been connected to others receiving what I longed for (never meaning material things).
As a child, the things (again not so much material as privileges and opportunities or connections) I longed for were denied me for two reasons repeatedly.  Those reasons were that I was a girl and that I was too young.  Of course the former was not something that would ever be rectified except in a back door kind of way and the second was a goal that changed as I aged - ever greater than what ever age I happened to be - this is until I aged out (of parental home.)
Both of those conditions were established because I was the youngest and the only daughter.
They were quite simply created to keep me out.
Not at all unlike rules that were designed to keep people of color out - only these rules were quite capriciously evoked and kept by my own parents - mother and father - against a being whom they chose to create and give life to.

When I write "rectified in a back door kind of way" I mean that many doors that were closed to me because I was female were later opened to many.  I quite honestly still felt deeply repressed simmer resentment over this because my parents made sure that such doors would never be opened for me. I can remember as a very young child expressing an interest in becoming a doctor and my mother reacted with derision.  I mentioned to her (I very clearly remember doing so at the age of 6) that our preacher's daughter (only offspring) was a doctor and she recoiled with disgust remarking with such derision that she was not married and never would marry.  Little could I know that no matter what I tried to do academically or professionally my parents would stand in my way and have reasons to oppose.  They quite simply opposed SUCCESS for me. Much like the Goethel in Tangled.  (But at least  Goethel was a kidnapper of Rapunzel who never had Rapunzel's best will at heart.  Society expects parents to have a child's best interest at heart

So back to your post and some of your points about pride, envy and greed.  As I was looking at envy what I saw was a jealousy but it was the product of not having what I NEEDED not what I WANTED.  I understand this because recently I heard someone say that her father always told her that he may not have given her everything she wanted but he did give her everything she needed.  (We usually think of these things in terms of material objects but I am speaking of them as emotional, psychological abstract "things" rather than tangible, material items.)  Well much of what I was/am jealous of was what I NEEDED rather than what I wanted.  And I think some of that applies to greed as well for me.

I am so thankful for your posting and this thread.  I find that I get so much more understanding when I am in dialogue with another.  You and PR post threads that give me so much to process and help me beyond words to describe.  pardon me if my post intrudes on your work.  I hope you will not let it divert your own train of thought - GS

[river]

  lead others astray in ways that are so subtle but very hurtful as I once experienced with her. I know that I am not alone in this.   

Yes, thats the one isnt it.  But then that is happenning in a myriad of different ways everywhere theres an N.  And there is many.   Its cunning, baffling, powerful, and it always amazed me how I can be affected internally and once triggered, I want more of it her/ him.   So I do know I have my own resonance with this problem, or did have.    I guess we can only do the best we can to sort out our part from the other. 

Only I'd question making amends as you describe, I fear it may push her further into her position.   She wouldnt get your example, because she's not looking for an example, maybe theres another way/??

[Gabben]

"cunning, baffling, powerful"

Them 12 step program words!! That is great! Yes, it is cunning baffling and powerful.

Making amends to her, if you are at all familiar with the 12 step program, is not about her, really. It is about making an amends to God, cleaning up our side of the street and our side only. It is partly about relinquishing control of outcomes, putting them in God's hands as we learn to walk in the ways of humility. I really have back lashed at times in my frustration, not so much to hurt back but just pure frustration in wanting to get her wrong right.  Loving the spiritual life myself I have had to pay the price for grace, costly grace comes by surrender of self to the great unknown of hope, good and love.  Those would be my motives for apology which I have already given her an apology, writing her a letter back almost a couple of years ago and humbling myself. And, you are correct, it did push her more into hating me and, at the sometime reinforcing her opinion of herself. But what happened for me was rest and peace, the rest and clean of conscious we feel when we really have attempted to amend a wrong.

She is great at twisting spirituality to her advantage such as making me out to be the abuser because I will not forgive, etc.. But it is not so much unforgivingness as much as it is unwillingness to tolerate her deception, especially because I know how damaging it is under the surface. I have other issues in this for me that are toxic that I am trying my harderst to work through to get out from under. It takes time to heal, it just takes time.

For so long I wanted to see something happen, but instead of her getting corrections she gets pity, favor and more power. But trust that is part of God's plan, for He knows what He is doing. I am just to take care of my relationship with Him.

 

[river]

Gabben, Its funny, I was a little naughty there, I used the fellowship language as a way of communicating something that I felt I shouldnt quite aks openly.   Yup, Im well familiar with this approach, been in the fellowships for years, and through the steps on these issues, so Im interested in your experiences.  
I also made a step 9 amends, to my mum, but not to subsequent Ns in my life.  Because I don think I actually did anything that harmed them.   As I see it my amends have to be to the universe, which is similar to what you're saying re amends to God.  So Ive been doing my best to do a 'living amends', do you use that term too?  

Would love to connect with you re all this.    

river

[Gabben]

Hi River,

Living amends are the most difficult. Some of these amends are the ones were we make a commitment to pray for those who have hurt us until all the anger and bitterness has gone and we can imagine loving them exactly as they are and right where they need to be. I am learning this does not mean that I have to put myself in their path, as I have recently to the N-counselor, but it does mean that I am willing to let go of all my poison, resentment, that I intended for them to take.

The healing of pain from an N is hard because they want to dominate and make us nothing, put us out of their lives, especially if we have been a threat. They will go to great lengths to do this, lies and all.  But for me it is a what I call a perfect cross, for in allowing myself to belittled, small and nothing I put down my hungry spirits; sort of like a death of my defenses that at one time served to help me survive, but now serve only to keep me in bondage to self, co-dependency or dysfunction.

The pain feels like a stab and a burn of your flesh as you hear impulses to fight, imaging conversations you would want to have with them and all the things you would want to say in meanness and unforgivness. I went this cold outspoken approach with the N, it only served to hurt me more and it was also used against me to make me look like the abuser. Lesson learned. Now I go the opposite way, suffering the pain, sinking into the wounds and praying for her, graces galore. It really works. It is like the beatitude blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth. What I get in return from putting down my desires, self, is peace, freedom as well as a more pliable willing sprit for the good of life, I am more free to move, not allowing others to dominate me.

Yes, I agree I was probably not a good idea to contact the N as I did in the most heartfelt spirit of love. It feeds her ego and will be used against me as well as my pure goodness will be taken once again by her as a threat. It will serve to further false accusations she has made about me. But I am willing to pay that price and risk for the peace that came to me and the outreach of pure love that I extended. It felt really good and freeing. It also brought me closer to God for I could almost hear the lies and in that I felt no matter what God knows the truth and clinging to Him and His opinion is all that really matters, it frees me.

The best amends I can make to my parents is to heal completely. Any form of self abuse or unhappiness in my life is a veiled attempt to continue to punish them for the wrongs of my childhood. What I can do best for my parents is over come depression, anxiety and dysfunction to be the love to this world despite that it was not given to me.

[Hopalong]

Only thing worrying me, Gabben, is your thinking of her 10 times a day.

I also, in every relationship in my life with an N, usually find myself spending way too much of my precious life time and energy thinking about them.

It is an obsession. I know when that pattern surfaces for me (like it does often about my Nboss), it's harming me.

I am not becoming whole as long as I am focused on the eNemy. But when I distance myself (as you are by leaving the parish) and have positives and "news" that literally fill my time and wear me out...

I get better.

I actually think I need to "keep busy" to recover from an N.

(A current dog-sitting job for an adorable but ungovernable pack of four is helping me with that this week!)

Hops

[river]

Im not sure if I meant it wasnt good.  The amends seems to have worked for you. 
For me to make amends to my N partner would have just increased the dynamic where I took responsibilty that he didnt take.  I did meet him accidentally in the park, we sat down for 15 mind together, I said he was an abuser, and  had participated, and for that I am responsible, but that he was still responsible for the part he played.   

The conversation was brief, direct and to the point, it wasnt blameful, it just stated the facts.   Facing the facts was my way of making amends to the universe as it was more honest. 

My issue is not the Ns any more though, Ns are only part of the equasion from where I stand.  Im heavily wieghed down by an unhealthy institution, where its subtle but hidden dynamic.... for another post i guess. 

[Gabben]

Only thing worrying me, Gabben, is your thinking of her 10 times a day.
Hops

Actually, until I showed up here on this board, for the first time in over a year, I have not thought about her very much. I had for the most part moved on, time and time again, putting her out of my mind and heart. But then, as I said in my first post, she shows back up in my life by my hearing about her or reading about her. As I said it triggers old unfinished business so I work through the pain, rather than deny it, until it subsides and she does not rent space in my head.

Another way to look at it is if God puts someone under your skin it is His way of saying pray for them until they no longer are lingering in your thoughts. Until when you do think of them you find no bitterness or desires to hurt back.
------------------------------------------------

 I had been very hurt by this woman; she was a trusted professional, a counselor who I bared my soul with who betrayed my trust and who for over three years has hated me and wanted me socially dead in the circle of my faith, or parish and old ministry work.

When all this first started, back in August of 2007, I was slandered to my spiritual director (as I wrote about in my story). I figured that was it (at the time I did not have any real info on N’s) I moved on but it took about 3 months and filing the claim with the board of science was very helpful in healing me as well as helping me move on. But then her attacks would come one by one about every 3 or 4 months over the next year as well and each time it was getting worse. Just when I was free or moved past  her, thinking blinding and naively, that it was over another hit would come; this had increased unconscious terror  and feelings of powerlessness because she is so good at fooling people know one would believe me. The worst hit was her last year telling my parish and fabricating photos of me with a dog.

After about 2 years of this I started to live on edge, like a person who lives in terrorist regions; not ever even realizing that her covert abuse and aggression had triggered and produced strong feelings of fear and hatred in me which I have worked through, layer after layer.

I know that people got sick of hearing about this, that is partly because it is easy to blame the torn,  battered, losing it, falling apart victim stuff who has been pushed over the edge. Anyone growing up with a real N parent understands this. At some point we lose it, totally lose all perspective. I think it is part of the N’s strategy, they want us to look like we are losing it, they want us to look like the crazy person.

A few years ago, when this started I moved on so many times, but wrote about her in terms of using her as a way to uncover my hidden wounds by my N mom.

 Part of why I went on and on about it was the pain and victimization. Never before in my life as an adult had I experienced anything like this on the social adult level, it just kept getting worse and worse, her slander and lies. I keep trying to get away, kept trying to put it behind me but in my desire to not slander or fight back but with forgiveness and love, which I failed or fell in carrying this cross, I worked HARD to keep silent. But my silence only furthered the pain. Eventually, it exploded and I needed to voice the pain of what it was like to deal with REAL N and the fallout as well as triggers of pain it caused me.

Trust me Hops, I have literally HATED myself for the recycle of voicing this drama over and over again. But I also saw that if I did not it exploded in me. It is like being raped not once but about 10 times over a period of 3 years.  Anyone would be a mess and need to talk about it constantly until they were finally moved past.

I’m having friends over for dinner tonight, and until I read your post she was not even renting space in me. Guess I am going to have to pray another Rosary for her again.

Thanks,
Lise

[Gabben]

Im not sure if I meant it wasnt good.  The amends seems to have worked for you. 
For me to make amends to my N partner would have just increased the dynamic where I took responsibilty that he didnt take.  I did meet him accidentally in the park, we sat down for 15 mind together, I said he was an abuser, and  had participated, and for that I am responsible, but that he was still responsible for the part he played.   

The conversation was brief, direct and to the point, it wasnt blameful, it just stated the facts.   Facing the facts was my way of making amends to the universe as it was more honest. 

My issue is not the Ns any more though, Ns are only part of the equasion from where I stand.  Im heavily wieghed down by an unhealthy institution, where its subtle but hidden dynamic.... for another post i guess. 

I'm going to respond to your post but I have a busy day and may not get back here. I sent GS and email telling her I was going to leave the board because I feel better and need to move on again from the drama with the counselor, but my conversation with you has kept me here.