Pain + Avoidance --> self-abuse

[sKePTiKal]

I've had one of those full-circle realizations... the kind where you wonder how in the world you missed it, it was so plain and obvious.

About 10 years ago, I had an abcessed tooth. The infection was really pretty bad, because I kept trying to treat the pain with OTC stuff, and hoping it would just go away. Of course, pain relief is a need, right? And I was programmed specifically to not seek out having my needs met... not asking for help. Part of the reason for the abcess in the first place, is because I was trained to believe that taking care of my teeth was "optional" -- those kinds of self-care habits were alien to my mom; we didn't need them; they didn't apply to us... that was for those other, uppity people who didn't realize the futility of taking care of oneself... we're all gonna die anyway. And of course, one wasn't allowed to whine about the pain either... it was always my own fault... and later, that evolved into the myth that I have a high threshold for pain.

This week, I bit down and heard/felt a snap and sharp stab of pain around one of my crowns. But as long as I didn't bite down on it, it didn't really hurt - for awhile. Then, it started to ache and throb. I took excedrin and slept OK. Same the next day and didn't really eat and worked outside... no pain until the evening. I barely slept, the pain took over all my senses and thought-processes weren't really possible with the constant jarring static of all the pain - and luckily I got into the dentist the same day. Got another root canal scheduled and prescriptions; it'll be OK. After the first one, I knew not to wait too long... but that trained instinct to ignore and avoid dealing with it was responsible for the suffering that I did put myself through.

In between these two occurances, I did several years of therapy... learned tai chi and chi gong... joined the board... and went through all the emotional pain that was never acknowledged, hardly addressed, and even blocked from my memory for my whole life, as it stands so far. I learned about how my psychosomatic symptoms were a silent "asking" for relief from emotional pain. And lord knows, I've processed that pain ad infinitum here and in journals over those years. And many things got better; changed; I let some things go... and there are more on that list... but the unassailable thing; the mysterious bit that I couldn't EVER break into, break apart, figure out how it worked... was my tendency to lack of self-care and even bad physical habits. I had gone back for my second round of therapy with the specific goal of quitting smoking - and ended up dealing with Twiggy and her story instead. My T had said that I would quit - eventually. It would all come together at some point and make sense; be clear; almost resolve itself. And she couldn't or wouldn't explain more specifically how that would occur, even when I asked point blank.

About a year ago - I had a dream of my T and I told her I wanted to "finish" now. I wrote in my journal "Sometimes, I just need to HEAR myself". It was dated July. And y'all know about my recent close encounter with my FOO - which, after all the overlays of emotions are stripped away (all the dancing around, not wanting to admit or say, avoiding) - was painful for me.

I am convinced we need to study the mind-body connection from the psychological/emotional perspective. I have had so many glimpses, breakthroughs, and positive benefits from applying the knowledge of the one to the other... and this most recent one is about pain. I know from first-hand experience, now, that my physical habits, my self-care habits (that could've been changed at any point in my adult life) are all related to the emotional pain I experience(d) in dealing with my FOO... and the "Rules" of that warped world.

I hope this will make sense enough to those who are struggling with something similar, that they can take it and use it for their own healing. This pain in my jaw wasn't limited to that area of my body; before the antibiotics kicked in I was having all kinds of muscle aches in all kinds of places; my body hurt all over. Similarly, my brain was in pain too - it didn't function well at all. I could barely drive to the dentist and back to the pharmacy; I was in a childlike state of totally focussed want/need to "make it all better". Even reading was difficult - that's how intensely I experienced the pain. Hubs kept coaxing me to just close my eyes and rest -- but I was afraid to do that. Afraid it would hurt even worse; that bad things would happen. I kept reading even after I spilled tea on my Kindle and messed up the display... figuring out a workaround; making do; I'd be all right. I cried a lot of silent tears and really missed MIL. Hubs did pretty good, though, taking care of me that day.

I guess it was while this girl was taking xrays and the tears were uncontrollable for me that I started to see in front of the me the connection between this physical and emotional pain and those poor habits that led me to this experience in the first place. I remembered a childhood dentist visit where my mom argued with the dentist over his recommendations... because even then he was concerned with the number of cavities I had. And the fillings... where my mom insisted I would be fine without novocain while he drilled... because I didn't feel pain like other people did, she told him.

Just like enough physical pain can disrupt how one's brain works... so can emotional pain, when it's constant enough without relief or coming back to equilibrium... or intense enough. And one's whole being gets tunnel vision and is desperately seeking a relief of the pain. "I wish I could just cut my head off", we say when we have a bad headache. "Just shoot me", we say when we're miserable all over. It's a lot like the saying "cutting off your nose to spite your face", isn't it? Like semi-conscious self-sabotage or self-abuse...

Twiggy had one really clear memory of smoking; it helped her brain work better... and now, I'm thinking that the nicotine or the physical repetitious act of hand to mouth of the smoking habit... helped her avoid and numb the pain she was in. The more the emotional pain that was heaped on her - without permission to talk about it; feeling like no one could stop her mom and dad wasn't going to - like she was trapped until she was legal age... the more she smoked. It "helped" distract her, numb herself, focus on intellectual things instead of feelings; ANY feelings... like being angry, nervous, embarrassed, angry, frustrated, helpless, trapped, powerless, or concentrating really hard on finding solutions... possibilities... ways out of predicaments. She never smoked because she enjoyed it; it was a necessary evil. And she had tacit acceptance of the habit from her mom, who only said: well, it could be worse. There were a lot of similar things; self-sabotage without intervent just that weird futility-based acceptance, things I shouldn't have done... things I should've...

For some time now, I've been aware that continuously mining my personal emotional pain only leads to the experience of the pain again... no great breakthrough realizations. It's truly beating one's head on a brick wall hoping for a different result. At least for me. But I hadn't taken into account the various emotions I learned to use to hide and disguise that pain as being part of the problem. I felt I had to hide these feelings even from myself, because my mom insisted she knew - could "see" on my face - what I was feeling and I was either punished, shamed or hurt for having any feelings. I knew anger was a big one; the one time I really did quit smoking - I "slipped up" and started again because of anger, powerlessness, and not being heard or having my feelings recognized.

I got that far and got stuck, working out how my inner process worked. The next step is that feeling of being so desperate for relief that one would do ANYTHING - including hurting oneself - to stop the pain. And because of lack of differentiation of emotions... because I'd been taught to associate all emotions with intense "pain" because of mom's responses ...  and because we're always feeling something... I was in constant movement toward another smoke, even long after the time I should've noticed that it didn't help at all. But it did provide me with the illusion - the self-soothing delusion that I was "doing something for me"... and it confused the hell out of me when I didn't have physical withdrawal symptoms during quit attempts; only emotional pain (take away the tool used to avoid & numb the pain... and BAM, a mack truck of all it slammed into me). Nothing worked; not even drugs... and I could sense there was a really, really deep and significant attachment for me between smoking and what I'd lived through... that wouldn't budge with all the techniques recommended for physical dependence. The source was emotional; it was this lens of reacting to all emotions as if they were intense pain - for fear of the consequences that were as predictable as the sunrise, embedded in my experiential brain.

Y'all know I can get hung up on definitions and I've used definitions a lot, to understand what's "gone off the track" in myself. My latest one was the difference between "competent" and "confidence". I've read a lot about "self-efficacy" - feeling competent enough, feeling ABLE to quit smoking. Maybe that was what I needed, I initially thought. Throughout my healing process, I've noticed a gradual increase in confidence, in differentiating emotions... maintaining boundaries... connecting with other people through those boundaries... communicating better than I have in a long time... and I wonder if a combination of confidence, with some letting go (and even allowing myself to FORGET) of old pain... and emphasizing "feel good" moments... and "I'm OK" moments might not be the way to approach the whole smoking issue. In other words: shifting my focus away from the negative in my life and allowing myself to attach more securely to the positive things... until there's less room for the inevitable negative to stick around.

A lot of the CBT techniques used to quit smoking, emphasize "separation" - breaking the association between say, smoking and coffee or driving and smoking. I'm guessing what I have to do with this new realization about pain and emotions... is separate them from the ineffective (and unnecessary) "strategy" I've used for so long, to avoid dealing with the feelings and numbing them; distracting myself instead. When I'm having a good time... I don't even think about needing to smoke, if I'm in a no smoking zone... it's only when I've moved back into "personal space" that the prompt even comes to mind. The last time I flew - on the return trip I was so glad to be home again, that until my driver suggested I might like to smoke before we got on the road... it had completely slipped my mind.

[Guest]

Interesting Amber, I can see your thinking and can't disagree (...) with what you're saying.

Q. did you smoke when your driver suggested it? (I would probably tend to refuse the suggestion. I think that's about control.)

There is probably more to smoking too. For me talking about smoking seems like a distraction, and, like talking/thinking about food when you want to lose weight, concentrating on it can make the defences stronger. I think what your T said - (sorry I can't see it right now) - is probably spot on. You''ll stop when it's time to stop.

You drove to the dentist with toothache that bad?

because I didn't feel pain like other people did, she told him.

Shaking my head; although I certainly believe you.

On the other hand: if we 'manage' our pain so well (so badly), it probably looks to others like we do in fact have a high threshold - whatever that means. I guess people in life-threatening occupations have a high threshold too. Or they acquire one.

[sKePTiKal]

I think the "not feeling pain" - psychologically, at least - is a myth. You know, the tough guys in westerns... the bravest soldiers... these images sell the idea that it's OK to stuff and deny vulnerability, pain, in order to "to do what has to be done". Well... the problem with that is that the pain doesn't really go away; they ARE still humans after all; and so we have a high rate of PTSD in veterans. But there is another way to do what has to be done; acknowledge the fear, the pain, and "do it anyway". To feel more than one thing at once... but choose an action based on the result desired, instead of simply to "make the feeling go away or change". That requires the intellectual imput, an assessment of physical ability, probabability of success, etc.

One thing I didn't say - but it's there in the words anyway - is that I'm seeing now, that at any time after I left home - I was technically free to adopt any self-care habit or stop any bad habit I wanted to. Technically. But in actuality, I was still restricted and limited... by something; either in my feelings about myself or some image of myself in my head. Very much like a belief-based taboo.

I'm a pretty well-educated person and keep feeding my head information, looking for new ideas, things I didn't know about before. I can apply information in a practical way, pretty successfully to solve other problems. I'm not as brainy as the mythbusters on TV... but that's the kind of stuff that gets me really excited and interested. I have found the typo in computer code that "broke" how different web components worked, in lines and lines of commands. But I still can't see EXACTLY (and concisely) what that taboo/restriction was that prevented me from committing to a desired change and being able to follow through with it.

I know I'm "suggestible"... when the driver mentioned smoking, I did. Much of my T experience was working alone, with an easy self-hypnotic technique. But only smoked about half the cigarette then, since I was in a hurry to get home (there were tornados in our area a day or two before and I was anxious about that). This ability is connected to what my mom used to characterize as a "wild imagination"... I can visualize many things; my memory is largely visual - tho' the other senses are also involved at a pretty high level too... and I usually dream elaborate tableaus with all kinds of technicolor details and subtle fleeting emotions. I have tried to visualize myself as a non-smoker; it's not sustainable. It's become part of my "personality mask"; feels like a part of my identity... a non-verbal expression of: ???

Part of the issue, perhaps, is the constant flux of emotion that we experience (whether we're aware of that or not). I can feel strongly (when in physical pain) that I need to up my dental care, for instance. But once the pain disappears... so does the need and the commitment, long before a new habit is established. My Sifu used to say it takes 5000 repetitions before something becomes a "habit" and feels "normal". (Sifu being tai chi teacher.) This is part of what I know is a fact, that leads me to wonder, if separating "whether I feel like it or not" from an actionable habit that I want to lose or acquire will make a difference.

And there's a double standard involved, in what I learned about emotions, too. Because while I wasn't permitted to have my own feelings or feelings not approved by mom in that moment... SHE was all about using all kinds of physical means to numb her feelings or avoid having to deal with them, primarily junk food - she was quite holier than thou about not using alcohol, smoking or even coffee or tea. That morphed later on, into hoarding. And as long as I wasn't asking anything of her - she did leave me alone - completely alone, to make up whatever habits I wanted. There were no parental boundaries, like an enforced lights out time (I'd read til 2-3 am and get up at 7 to pack lunches for mom & bro & be to school on time), and very few limits on where I could go; with whom; and as far as curfew... many times there wasn't one.

It seems inescapable at this point... that somehow, someway... this double std. got internalized in me. "The mom in my head". And it's an auto-run program that continues it's cruel domination and manipulation of my Self "freedom"... unless I can find the one piece of code to delete, that will disable the program from functioning. It's almost as if I missed something, the first time through, when I was separating the "her" from "me" stuff.

[sKePTiKal]

It's almost as if I missed something, the first time through, when I was separating the "her" from "me" stuff.

Sometimes I just need to HEAR myself. That's the big clue above.

Tentatively, I'm wondering if Twigs thought - felt - that it was impossible to get the "mom in her head" to go completely away... and that was so painful and she was so desperate... that she latched onto; attached to a thing she knew without a doubt was scientifically proven to kill people - including people she knew; one of which had helped her a lot in the worst part of the trauma she lived through. I heard some news blip about the warning label on cigarettes being changed to something as direct as "These things WILL KILL YOU."

And then I heard Twigs react in resistance: she said "Good".

SIGH... after all this time and work and revelation... rather than fighting back, talking back, drawing a boundary between her/mom... me/her... she'd rather just crawl in a hole and die a slow death from the pain instead. That is just SOOOO unlike her; and unlike me -- it doesn't make a lot of sense.

But it's exactly something BioNic Mom would say and attempt to do, and even did/does.

So I guess it's time to ask Twigs the questions: do you, in fact, need an attachment to "bioNic mom", as ill as she is? do you in fact want so much to get her attention - and acknowledgement - that you're even willing to "put on" her own darkness in hopes that she'll "wake up" and take care of you? Give that odds - how likely IS that? Remember how awful her attention to you was? Are you sure that's what you're asking for? Why on earth would you "want" something that's dangerous to you?

and finally:

well, you've had "freedom" for 40 years now, in reality (and in your Self for the last few, several years too)... so WHEN is it going to be time, to put that freedom to good use? What's the WORST that could happen?

[Guest]

Amber, so you don't own your futility and darkness; those are actually not yours but Mom's?

Well that sounds definitely like something to become free from.

[sKePTiKal]

That's the question, Guest... still working out the answer and it may be OK, if I never get to a final, definitive "... and that's that." place. As long as I simply start walking down that path...

and the short answer is, no - I don't believe I own the infinite, penultimate futility or darkness that is my mom's waking (and probably sleeping) consciousness that results from always blaming (and giving away power of to) others. There is my own sense of futility re: having any ability or power or enough caring to impact and wake up my bro and mom from their limited view of reality. There is loss - for sure! Even the loss of my own self-soothing illusion that I MIGHT be able to "be in the right place at the right time with the right words" to be the catalyst for something of that nature. The loss of hope... and the acceptance of letting that "quest" go.

The personal darkness that I do own: is what I call the creative void - and it's a warm & fuzzy cocoon that always passes back to morning again. It's actually a nice place... healing... it's more like a litter of kittens all piled and jumbled on top of each other, resting & recharging for the next "play" session.

I have LOOKED under the bed, in the closet... for those awful, terrible, shiver-me-timbers, pee-inducing fearful darknesses within me. Stared 'em all in the face now, even the big boogie man of the certain knowledge that I too, will one day, die. Those places that I thought were so shamefully bad... I've mostly studied and claimed as part of myself -- and they were normal reactions to painful situations outside of my control - then.

That's why I think, it's finally time to take on the challenge of the most stubbornly difficult or resistant one -- and figure out the "how" of the best way to help this one thing grow, evolve, and change within me.

[Guest]

Been thinking about your post Amber and where and how you seem different to how I am...

(I think you mean ultimate and not penultimate, just a feeling.) Interesting that you point your 'futility' towards any actions regarding Mom/Bro. That took me aback. Futility for me is huge, but that's a whole different thing and certainly not about FOO or PDs or anything there connected. Not about quests for sure. Wow, quests, I remember those.

Ah the kitten card. With marshmellows. That's good, in a 'that is a goodness' way. (To me the void is the void, it's not creative or anything, but that's different.)

Death ain't the boogie man really. The boogie man is the boogie man; whoever he is: the one who could torture, torment and make your life a living hell so that death is a breeze. That's where fear is useful. I guess.

Transformation goes only so far. Some think that humans can go further...probably just by talking themselves into it; evolving their own brains etc. On a small level, fair enough, within the bounds of what is possible for everyday humans today but beyond that? They need their heads examined. Dr Guest says so.

But your personal quest, why not, you have good reasons to live and thrive. They are no doubt a great en-courage-ment?

[sKePTiKal]

I used to be involved with a group (and married to someone from it) that believed in that "above & beyond" kind of transformation. Some of the basics of that were actually helpful in therapy... but I agree wholeheartedly, that the natural limiting factor is that we're all sorta normal, everyday, run of the mill humans -- and we all do, think, and feel all those human-scale things which are stuck with the labels good and bad... but that this doesn't really qualify us as "good" or "bad" people; healthy or broken people. That's something else again.

Finally watched The Black Swan with hubs and the first real friend I made post-Twiggy days... we've stuck together since junior high school...preteenagers... boyfriends, husbands, kids, losing parents... she is also a "survivor" and has a story with overlaps into/onto mine. She and I were able to talk about it, right after it was over... hubs was too much in shock after it; called it "disturbing"; and exhibited a need for some reassurance from me, that it was "just a movie"... that things like this didn't really happen, did they? He's not talking about it, too much yet. (and he thought he was going to sleep through it!) And damn, if every single book I'm picking up these days - all fiction(?) - doesn't have abuse as the central theme of the book.

Of course, friend has a FOO-story too embarassing to share, except with someone like me who no longer lives in the town and won't judge her by her family. Poor hubs must've felt like there there was something in the water, where we grew up!

But back to the movie - I'm still trying to put into words for myself, the ending where she says: it was perfect, I was perfect... along with the "price" of being perfect. Friend and I absolutely understood and didn't question the main char's self-hatred nor the "accident" which finally provided the kind of oblivion and peace which she simply didn't find anywhere else. Hubs is afraid of that; probably "getting" that this is what I'm currently zoomed in on changing in myself... and has seen it when it was out of control, in me and other people. That kind of unconscious, conflicting, and self-abusing "throw myself under the bus" mental process.

Asking myself: is it true that everything has a price? Is that the mentality behind internalized self abuse? The silly, incorrect, and just plain "wrong" idea? And isn't "beating ourselves up"... forcing ourselves to "stay with the pain"... or living in depressive "flatland"... or smoking or worse... just our "inner parent" imposing that price; consequence -- on ourselves? And if we're adults; grandparents even... do we really NEED an inner parent anymore? (inner children are more fun once they realize they're allowed to BE children...) What if those inner parents are cruel and nasty and manipulative SOBs?? Over controlling; self-boundary intrusive yet still neglectful... abusers? Shouldn't those kind of inner parents be overthrown in a coup? or taken out with the trash?

and THEN, I read an article about several studies into "Loyality"... and am left puzzled; something I don't understand in the context of how I understand loyalty; what I was taught about all that loyalty entailed. "Studies looking at loyalty and trust suggest that these qualities may be fundamental to human relationships", some psychologists say. OK so far. I can agree with that... it's what all people need to connect with another. HERE's the part that doesn't jibe with my experience:

"Therefore, staying loyal to someone, and preserving a mutual feeling of trust, [my emphasis] allow people to be able to function with others without constantly suspecting their motives". Later, the article says, "People who were apt to forgive their partner without that partner making amends tended to show a gradual erosion of their self-respect." Well DUH - we call that being a doormat; throwing ourselves under the bus; I hope they didn't get a grant to come to that conclusion.

So all this is rolling around together, in my head. (please - if you see a hole in this premise and line of reasoning - pls kick it wide open, ok?)

Trust is experience based. When you meet someone new - you take a risk, and trust them to fulfill their promises - keep a secret, show up at the agreed time, whatever. To do what they SAY they will do.

Loyalty is something based on.... what? belief? past experience of trust and reliability? our own unconscious wants & needs? attachment?? I was taught that "loyalty" had no connection with trust at all... it was those family roles... that mattered more; one forgives family everything; or at least I had to; I have a hard time coming up with examples of when it worked the other way for me. (OK - so I don't really believe that anymore; but the old reflex - tradition - or foo-script is still there.)

My friend's FOOstory involves classic domestic abuse; her sister is being loyal and going back to sick (and criminal) hubby despite the fact that she absolutely can't trust him. I stayed loyal to my FOO over the years, despite what that did to my self-respect... and have not ever been able to trust them, over & over... it's been proven that even when they SAY "it's only because I care about you; it's good for you; for your own good" - it absolutely wasn't in my best interest. And the loyalty conflict issue - comes out, is acted out in me - I think... perhaps... as this self-abuse. To be loyal to these people I can't trust... is hurting myself. But to be loyal to mySelf - to protect myself via boundaries and all these other skills - is to violate that loyalty to FOO. And there is no "middle way" for my mom or bro - and me. Not to them; not part of their reality... and definition of trust & loyalty.

So... I don't understand how there can be these "relationships" - where the basics don't exist - trust and loyalty. Seems to me that these two things are pre-requisites for defining that a relationship exists. And, in interactions where one "trades" one's self-respect for the illusion of a relationship... for a one-way relationship of loyalty and forgiveness of all things... how does that eventually turn into such vile and intense self-hatred, that one unconsciously punishes oneself? Is that where the drive to perfectionsim comes in? Codependence? or is it that pain - like water - seeks it's own lowest level? And that this kind of pain is the top of the list of unbearable pain, and therefore activates an unconscious activity to stop the pain?

Musing... pondering... letting all this roll around in my head (out loud) for awhile. Y'all don't have to try to answer my questions... unless there's something there for you, too. If I don't say things out loud like this, I can't always hear when my thoughts & ideas are absurd. No one says - hey, what about??? or that's just wrong... or...

[Hopalong]

Hi PR,
What popped up for me was the notion of "tolerable risk". That relates to how much threat you are experiencing.

For me, at the peak of battling to cope with a frank reality that my brother would happily have destroyed my life and was (fortunately incoherently and ultimately, to the court, irrationally) trying to do so...to have any contact with him whatsoever became an intolerable risk. When that switch flipped, that this was a matter of both self-preservation and my inherent right to dignity and peace, I finally was able to release him to be who he is. But he is no longer in my PHamily. Amazingly, for my main abuser, I had to go through some grief. I had no brother any more. (Never had had a protective, kind, good older brother. But still, there was a part of my identity in which, I had this relative. Didn't think I needed to grieve any about that, especially given what an enormous relief it was, but the psyche knows what it knows. And that was good. To see it, not worry about how nonsensical it was. To let that grief happen too.)

So when the definitions of right and wrong and loyal or disloyal come up in your current effort to find safety and health, I think what you may be trying to do is simply define for yourself, in a way you and your conscience (as opposed to your guilty fearful self) can live with, what tolerable risk is. (That's what ongoing relationships with difficult family involve, I think. All a choice. NC is always on the table. But...so is some compromise...if the payoff--having the relative and that part of your own identity--does not involve intolerable risk.)

Hell, even the most loving, healthy relationships involve SOME risk. We can disappoint each other. Even "good" and "safe" people will hurt somebody sometimes. But, I think when we come farther along in healing, that knowledge becomes tolerable and doesn't necessarily mean a severing. Depends. Case by case. With friends, family, PHamily.

It might involve a lot of pendulum swings. You might even need that extremism for a while. Perhaps the adrenalin it provides also gives you power, to contain the old fears. And to prevent you from slipping further into self-abuse. The danger is that in the raging battle to save oneself from abuse, one can unwittingly slip occasionally into shades of abusiveness oneself. (I know I found that dark wind in myself. Who, me? I was stunned. Had no idea I even had that darkness. It was as though Mother Theresa woke from a nightmare in which she was plotting how to stomp on somebody dying in a Calcutta gutter.) After a while, I realized that under enough strain, any psyche can morph and strain into something new, something distorted. Well and truly including my own.

So forgiveness, when it came, was a mercy to me. (All done, regarding my mother. Not completed, regarding Nbro.) Because I could forgive myself, too, for the dark places I fell into. AND REALIZED I COULD CLIMB OUT FROM.

For what it might be worth, the legal battle ended with sociobro about a year ago. I continue with NC and assume he will, as well. But oddly, I am beginning to realize that if, one day, I wound up seeing him, or chose to attend a funeral he was attending, or whatever...I don't think I'd be all that fussed. Saddened, some, to see him and remember. But because the switch flipped for me, I have already saved myself.  Nothing he could do or say to me, or about me, ever, will change that.

It's like I've had surgery. I have no desire or plan to ever see my brother again (though hope I may one day see his kids or my SIL). But I'm realizing if I did, he could dance around me, stick his face in my face, exude all the evil toxic crazy vibes he wanted. And I would be able to stand there sipping my punch, and know I am fine. The brother-terror-gland has literally been removed. There's nothing he can squirt at me that would reactivate it.

So...it really doesn't matter if I see him or not. I will never seek him out, because his behavior was truly sociopathically vicious, but I don't need the razor wire any more. I am my own safe fence.

Jeez. I useta be able ta write better imagery.

love,
Hops

[Guest]

Tolerable risk, nice one. I was thinking about tolerating ambiguity; rather off down my own meandering nonsense path, thinking about 'trust' and 'loyalty'. Ambiguity pays a big part of course.

I wondered if there's more trust for someone I wouldn't trust as far as I can throw them vs. I wouldn't trust them as far as I can spit. Maybe they're the same distance/difference now that I'm not as strong as I used to be.

"Under enough strain, any psyche can morph and strain into something new, something distorted." We are all rapists and murderers under the circumstances necessary for each of us to behave like that. Fact, I would imagine. Why would any one person be different?

Hops, about safety: okay, so you wouldn't be fussed at seeing him, but presumably if he was wielding a large machete you'd feel pretty afraid? It's still necessary to keep in mind that a few would be violent - inner safety and boundaries are one thing. They don't stop the knife.

What's loyalty. A loyal person to me is one who has integrity, who is constant, and who will withdraw trust once (HA! once, not, if! ) it has been violated. In everyday terms, not in ultimate compassion type terms.

I gotta say i have zero interest in seeing Black swan. Mind you I have little interest in films these days. My head is full enough and all the stories are the same really.

[Hopalong]

You're right, Guest.
Maybe I'm indulging in some empty braggadocio (unlikely to be tested).

But ironically, his very favorite object when he was young was a machete a professor who did exotic travels gave him.

And also true, as an adult, after Viet Nam, he discovered the joys of hunting...traveled to other countries, even, to shoot the biggest animals he could.

Ewww.

I think he's truly a coward, though, so at a funeral he'd be more likely to be an empty suit.

Probably I wouldn't be notified or invited and it won't ever come up, anyhow.

tx for the warning though...I can fantasize myself into trouble.

xo
Hops

[Guest]

TT I have a story about brand loyalty. Neighbour of mine always buys the same model of car from the same sales shop. Last time but one it had a problem (this person buys them new and exchanges them after a few years...with the same shop). Did they go back and buy again? Sure. I call it brand loyalty even when the brand is devalued and is no longer as good. The customer remains loyal. I'd tend to feel like you. They stop getting my cash! And I don't think brand loyalty is that different to other loyalties.

Hops ...goodness. Well. Umm. I'd keep a very big distance if I could. Just because. No point in inviting problems if you don't need to.

As for my being in the same room as my NCers....I don't fancy it. Neither of them are people I would stay in the same room with if they were someone else....er.... TT's affliction is catching...I guess I mean: there are better things to do. And why be around wicked people if you don't need to? OTOH if you need to be, I liked the advice/comment on your thread way back about not making eye contact. Very sensible I thought.

[teartracks]

Hi Guest,

My affliction - Oh thank you  !  I think you're talking about the times when I can't wake up fully and that it could come in handy if you're in company you don't want to give attention to?   Yes, you could look at it as an affliction  .  The good part is that 75 mg. of Wellbutrin a day fixes it, but if I forget a dose, I go right back to being afflicted.

tt

[Guest]

page 2...?

TT

I didn't know it was a problem for you every day. Sorry to hear that.

[sKePTiKal]

Hi - just wanted to pop in and let y'all know I have a root canal early this morning. Had a FULL and difficult session with my "advisors" yesterday... and haven't been able to think (do I mean ruminate?) about it yet - but I figure being a captive patient in a chair who has their mouth being worked on is the perfect opportunity.

I appreciate all the company around my musings; Hops - I need to digest your post; I connected with a lot of what you said. And tt, that definition gives me PLENTY to toss around in the mix... sort of like garlic, lemon juice and cumin. Hopefully, I'll be back later today... just depends on what pain medication I'm dealing with.

I suspect that all the blather in this thread, is simply me... trying to define... what the experience of BEING me (for me) is all about... and looking to see if there is some cotter pin, somewhere that I can pull out of the mechanism of the whole abuse experience... so that it finally falls apart... leaving just me.