addicts don't go NC why do we?

[Ales2]

Can someone please enlighten me - I see lots of shows and have been reading alot about recovering addicts and see how much they take responsibility for their lives, how they accept their feelings and learn to deal with them in a healthy way, and how they change their interaction with others, especially their families. In almost all the cases I've seen, the families suffer from huge dysfunctions. I wondered if it seems like if the family drove the person to start their addiction, I wonder why reconcile with them?  I don't understand how forgiving someone who has really hurt you helps the recovering addict.   So, I wonder how kids of N parents are any different.  Why do we kids of Ns go NC when addicts are encouraged to forgive? Why are we (kids of Ns) different?

Can anyone comment on this?

[finding peace]

Really, really good question – I have struggled with this a lot Ales,

As a youngster, growing up in a hell-fire and brimstone environment (ie, you don’t obey you will burn…) forgiveness always felt to me like the ultimate gift to give –

And yet – as an adult…

Is forgiveness what makes it ok for us to let go of what was done to us and move on?

Or,

Is it a way for us to forgive ourselves for what we have done to hurt others, so that we can let  go and move on?

Just seems a little self-serving either way????

Forgiveness is not necessarily a bad thing when it is pain others have caused us that we are able to let go and move on.

On the flip side, if it enabling us to move on despite the harm we have caused, then it seems wrong to me?

My childhood was so skewed; I am probably misinterpreting the real truth of forgiveness. 

I just don’t know. 

I am very interested in hearing other’s input on this.

Love,
Peace

PS.  My father, a couple of years before he died, said to me, I have forgiven myself for everything I’ve done that was wrong to you all (this is the man who molested me).  At the time I can remember feeling outrage, and thinking good for you (sarcasm ad nauseum there) … I was outraged that he was able to ameliorate all his guilt with the forgiveness for himself without once taking into account my pain. 

Maybe this is why my view of the term “forgiveness” seems to be selfish and skewed – I think it can be powerful, if is correctly applied.  However, in the hands of an N, I get the feeling that I am just another road kill along the path of his highway (::rolling eyes while vomiting in my mouth:: )

[BonesMS]

To share a little bit about me, I am a recovering alcoholic and recovering drug addict who is trying to work the 12 Steps to the best of my ability.  My decision to go NC with the NFOO was not an easy one but, at the same time, it had to be done for the sake of my own sanity and sobriety.  Why, you may ask?  After dealing with years of violence...physically, sexually, emotionally, etc. plus receiving continuing threats of such from what is left of the NFOO, I realized that they were just simply TOO TOXIC to have in my life.  On top of that, many of them were STILL DRINKING AND DRUGGING.  For the sake of my own health, I could not continue maintaining ANY contact with toxic, slippery people who threatened my life and who saw me as NOTHING but a pile of !@#$.

Just my 1/2 cent worth.

Bones

[sKePTiKal]

Why do we kids of Ns go NC when addicts are encouraged to forgive? Why are we (kids of Ns) different?

Well - not all CoNs are encouraged to go NC. Some of us do maintain some contact*. Each situation is a bit different - so there's no one "time tested & proven" prescription that fits every person and every situation. And even over time, that decision about NC might change...

* and that compromise is not without it's difficulty and the risk of re-opening wounds; having buttons pushed.


I'm of the opinion (for what it's worth) that forgiveness is a gift of pain-relief to the person doing the forgiving - not a "get out of jail free" card for the person who transgressed... unless ... that person is truly sorry, apologizes and wants to make amends. So, an offer of "I'll forgive you..." - to my way of thinking - is kind of peace treaty that requires that apology and real change; and is simultaneously the unspoken ultimatum that this is the last chance; that another incident will force you into protecting yourself from that kind of hurt with an NC boundary (or similar). FP's dad decided to selfishly, presumtuously give himself the first part... without even attempting the second... and it's clearly a two-person interaction. (I'm amazed you restricted yourself to sarcasm, FP! I would've been outrageously angry... or worse.)

Another KIND of forgiveness is an internal decision and emotional threshold - a letting go of the issue, like FP is talking about - that frees the "forgiver" from the negative feelings, the blaming (giving up blaming is like the personal accountability for addicts), and even the real emotional "need" that drives some people to being miserable because of the futility of the need being met by people who simply CAN'T (but are the ones in our framework of understanding family, who SHOULD meet our needs) -- or drives people to self-harm, in the case of addicts and others who self-sabotage or indulge self-defeating vices as a means of emotional soothing, etc. (These are examples of different degrees of self-harm, I think...)

I'm saying there is more than one kind of forgiveness, Ales. I think there might even be more than the two examples I mentioned.

The second example is closer, for me, to my experience... and works better for me. My mom is simply sure she did nothing wrong; in her "world" there is nothing to be forgiven, therefore nothing to apologize for. So, even the possibility of me having that conversation with her is prevented from the get-go. That left me a miserable ball of conflicted, self-blaming, and self-harming agony, you know? I struggled with the definition of forgiveness for a long time. What I came to was that inner space - where I could let go the anger, the hurt, the obsession with the "wrongs" that were done - and yet, still attribute accountability where it belonged. I started learning that all these years, I'd been trying to make myself accountable, responsible - for things done TO me - things that were wrong and weren't ever going to be apologized for; my mom will never in a million years understand or admit that things she said/did, hurt me. No matter what I do to myself... which I then realized, I needed to forgive myself for doing!!

Over time, I taught myself to stop expecting that she would be sorry and apologize. And that made the inner letting go finally feel comfortable for me.

[Guest]

Ales, your question:

I wondered if it seems like if the family drove the person to start their addiction, I wonder why reconcile with them?

One answer might be that society likes to pressure people into accepting their families. There could be several reasons for this:

- it makes good voyeuristic TV to have family members involved;
- if addicts can be helped financially by their families, I imagine it might be seen that it lessens the caseload on social services etc;
- the vast majority of people cannot cope with the idea of someone cutting all contact with their FOO, so they encourage them to get together because it makes them feel better.

As for forgiveness, for kids of Ns, it's a side issue not worth messing your head up with. I get what you're saying PR but I prefer the word acceptance to a lot of other ideas. I don't mean acceptance of wrongs done, I mean acceptance of our lack of power to change anything - other than what we can change.

The only problem we have in that area is understanding what we can affect, and what actions we can take to achieve an outcome that just might be favourable or something we can live by. The trick is to keep breathing.
The answer in this case is to ignore what society wants.

[Baddaughter]

I think drug addicts/ alcoholics DO go NC!  As a dual diagnosed mental illness / addictions veteran, my best impression is that the behaviors and experiences and expectations from youth constituted the basis of my first addictions to pain and self destruction and the substances just sort of walked into the space.  Like when your primary narcissist dies and someone is right there ready to wipe their feet on that empty doormat.  The reason you are seeing addicts that don't have to go NC is because perhaps a narcissistic upbringing is not the main issue for their addiction?  Anyway, bear in mind, that regardless of the approach to recovery / intervention, etc, only about 15 percent of recovering addicts are able to stay clean of their drugs of choice.   I would be willing to extrapolate that only about 15 percent of us who go NC are able to do so completely without relapse.  In my case, they died, so I cannot predict my relapse rate in their direction.  I have been able to stay sober but I think their deaths actually promoted both of my recovery tracks.  Isn't that sad?

[Guest]

I know that I'm *lucky* to have real good reasons for staying NC and that makes me a potential 15%er 

I don't expect to see my living parent again, in normal circumstances. I'm working on ignoring the rest of the dysfunctionals. It's not that difficult, for me.

[teartracks]

Hi Ales,

NC vs forgiveness.  NC shouldn't exclude forgiveness.  Forgiveness shouldn't exclude NC.  Both have their virtues and there's no reason why they can't be refined or combined if needed for each individual.  Forgiveness comes easy for me, but in and of itself, forgiveness doesn't mean I'm reverting to doing business as usual with a person or people who are stuck in a hotbed of dysfunction that breeds addiction.  I think someone who has gone NC should think carefully about reentering bad situations.  Minimally, they should be mature, informed and strong to reenter, even then at widely spaced intervals.   

tt

[SilverLining]

Ales, your question:

 
One answer might be that society likes to pressure people into accepting their families. There could be several reasons for this:

- it makes good voyeuristic TV to have family members involved;
- if addicts can be helped financially by their families, I imagine it might be seen that it lessens the caseload on social services etc;
- the vast majority of people cannot cope with the idea of someone cutting all contact with their FOO, so they encourage them to get together because it makes them feel better.

That's exactly what I was thinking. Also, due to typical expectations of the society, a recovering addict reconciled with the family makes a much better happy ending to a story.  Media is going to lean toward stories that appeared resolved, either by the addict reconciling with the family,  or something sensational.   A lifetime of NC doesn't make a conclusive ending.     

These basic social expectations are one of the difficult things we have to work to understand and overcome.     

[Baddaughter]

Forgiveness is part of it!  But forgiveness implies contrition.  Before I went NC, I had infinite opportunities to forgive -- LOL!   But I never experienced any contrition.  The lack of contrition and awareness reinforced my desire to try NC.  My involvement in their lives was unappreciated and the rules of engagement changed daily at whim.  As I am truly contrite about the whole thing, it is also important to forgive myself.  But still I long for them - or what they coulda shoulda been.  Sigh -- much more than I long for those lovely amber liquids -- oh to be tortured by them one more time again.  I tend to be flippant and overly lighthearted about serious topics -- or at least that seems to be "me" at the moment.  But this is what I believe about myself -- I desperately wanted my ideal of a family back so bad that I went to great lengths to acheive some sobriety because I believed my main problem was a total state of drunkeness whenever I could manage it.  I embraced 12 step program and mental health counseling (private) and classes at local health dept.  No one ever wanted to feel better more than I.  I heard in the "rooms" that people were accomplishing great things and regained their families.  Bear in mind that my family did not know I had a terrible drinking problem.  Would have meant knowing the real me in some fashion I guess.  But none of them ever acknowledged that I was disappearing before their very eyes.  I guess that is hard for me to admit about them, but it is true.  Only my husband knew and eventually some cousins were aware but problem was ebbing by then and mother only found out after sobriety well underway.  None of these people were ever inconvenienced by that or any other "problem" of mine.  So I get well into challenges of new lifestyle and am finding myself more and more uncomfortable with it.  Feeling Worse!  Great things aren't happening...  people left and right are making great breakthroughs getting "forgiveness" from their families and rejoining them -- people relapse and still get them back! Hey!  These people Love each other -- they want to see their loved "better" and love them on both good and bad days.  Wow!  But I strove mightily on for over 2 years, wondering -- my psychologist gently tried to prod me into some acceptance of family truth -- but I couldn't accept it.  Only since I started reading about toxic families did I start to get a really better grip -- about 5 to 6 years into recovery.  My mother eventually told me that although she was not aware I "was a drinker," she actually thought all my changes had been for the worse and she liked me better before...

[BonesMS]

If I may share a little more regarding my recovering from alcoholism and drug addiction.  While accepting the fact that I will always be a recovering alcoholic and a recovering drug addict, I also came to realize I was also self-medicating so I wouldn't feel the pain of abuse from the NFOO.  Once that foggy cloud lifted, I no longer craved chemically-induced oblivion.  Dealing with real life, without mood-changing chemicals is hard and, at the same time, committing slow suicide would have made my abusers happy as they had told me, on more than one occasion, since I was a child, that they wished I was dead and that I should never had been born because they have always considered and called me "retarded".  In their view, having a "defective retard" anywhere near them made them look bad to their friends and neighbors.  With NFOO's like that, who needs enemies?

Bones

[sKePTiKal]

The only problem we have in that area is understanding what we can affect, and what actions we can take to achieve an outcome that just might be favourable or something we can live by. The trick is to keep breathing.
The answer in this case is to ignore what society wants.

Hear Hear! That last line in particular is spot on.

FW, I think we just said the same thing - only you wrote it better than I did. Acceptance is the better word, because "forgiveness" seems to have little clinging connotations hanging on it; assumptions that everyone "makes up" and lives happily ever after. Yet, "forgiveness" is the word that's used most often... instead of the more appropriate "acceptance". I think that's why I had such a hard time with it, myself. I knew there was no realistic possibility of achieving that "happily ever after"  and total NC didn't feel right either... and I sort of built a box of "can't"s around myself until I realized I could change me... via acceptance, letting go expectations, hopes and the "shoulda, coulda, woulda"s.

[Hopalong]

FW, thank you much for pointing at societal expectations and most especially media manipulation...huge.

I like this discussion of nuances about acceptance vs. forgiveness.

For me, forgiveness means "be like Jesus" and refusing to forgive means "turn intentionally away from what Jesus was about." I am no longer Christian or even theist, but these deep definitions and understandings of the christ are still in me. So, in part, I do want to forgive.

The main reason I was/am driven to forgive is that when I don't, I am poisoned. I feel hate (dramatic term but true) for those who damaged, harmed, abused, exploited, etc etc etc-- me. When I intentionally think on forgiveness, something in my chest lightens up. Though the damage/harm/abuse/exploitation is not resolved (at least the PAST) ... my own inner tension is relieved. I more often think of them as human...then I think of how sick they are... I don't want to be vulnerable to them, ever again, and it's sad what they became, but they are what they are.

Another comforting context for me is to zoom WAY out, and think of us all as a species, animals, and ponder the enormous variants in nature and in other animals. We are animals. We keep forgetting we are animals. (Not a negative term, as I mean it.) So....when I think about Nism, or evil, or sociopathy, or cruelty -- I sometimes think about predation, the brutality in nature, the aggression of some members of some species. The hideous (to me) acts of "brutality" in nature, the pain caused, the suffering, the devouring of infants. Then I think of the Ns or abusers as ... like that.

Avoid and self-protect, develop adaptive behaviors. That's the biological survival way.

Acceptance of what I cannot change is the psychological survival way.

Forgiving them, once I accept their biological nature...is nearly moot. But for me, it's the spiritual survival (even "thrival") way.

I need to do it anyway because: a) I am a religious person in many ways, and b) it relieves a feeling of being poisoned, when I don't.

Hops

[Guest]

Hops,

is refusing to forgive something that we can choose to do? Without descending into a language mess! I mean, if I retain an attachment to someone's bad behaviour, am I choosing to be upset by them? Or have I not got to the stage where I accept that it's nothing to do with me? I don't really think that people choose to refuse, I think it's because they don't understand the alternative. Some moments I choose to dream up ways of revenge for slights inflicted on me, and that's me processing through to accepting that it really ain't my business how other people are screwed up. Can still annoy the hell out of me though! It's all part of it. Try stuffing the bad feelings and you just stuff them.

I don't know about the poisoning, well, yes it feels bad, but it's part of what we do I think. Feel the poison and dredge it up and out. Or accept the poison! Live with the poison, love it, revel in it, get bored with it. Accept it and .... oh, where did it go?

I'm very very very wary of adopting any position in thinking that implies in any way, any, even slight, feeling of superiority. Coz that's when I get up myself, and ego, whatever you may call it, gets in charge. It's really enjoying this line of argument though!! *slap*

[Hopalong]

FW, I think you know whereof you speak!

am I choosing to be upset by them? Or have I not got to the stage where I accept that it's nothing to do with me? I don't really think that people choose to refuse, I think it's because they don't understand the alternative.

I think also that some practices (that I am far too undisciplined to engage in) do accelerate the process of that understanding. And those practices are choices.

That I am not motivated enough to make with any consistency, but some deep early impressions do tend to lead me in that direction. So there must be many paths.

Hops