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New thread for flirting, opposite sex relationship stuff

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sKePTiKal:
Bones & Boat...

This one topic deserves it's own thread, I think. Just talking to each other about this, we're getting closer to understanding it - at least, I hope there's some understanding possible! It doesn't really fit with ironing, makeup, lampshades & mops - LOL... even tho it's one of those BIG "mama never told me" things.


--- Quote ---I mean does intimacy or romance or even love or whatever..put us into these hazes of psychological tornado storms? That's what it feels and sounds like to me.
--- End quote ---

Exactly. My warning sirens go off... the troops start running for battle stations... I load up the cannons... and then "I" go run & hide in the safest, most protected place I can find!  LOL... in some ways it's completely hilarious what a ball of cluster-tangled and completely contradictory thoughts & feelings I become. And yet, I feel like it's a very serious problem for me. I just flat out, simply, don't feel comfortable. 11 years of marriage, notwithstanding. (and lots of other relationships and 2 ex-husbands, too) It's much easier for me to flirt with a complete stranger - no expectations, no promises, no obligations   =   no RISK either. I can and have, just walked away when it suited me or things took a more serious turn.

So, maybe for me it's a control & boundary issue. That level of intimacy triggers all the self-defense reactions I created to fend off my Nmom's intrusions across my identity boundaries... and my fear is simply that I'll "lose my turn" - my right - to even have boundaries within the situation and relationship; I'll be totally powerless and persona non grata again. Add to that, being a rape survivor who did fight back and lost; but survived... and well, I can't really blame my Self for still being freaked out. Even though I rationally KNOW, without a doubt, that a.) hubs will never intentionally hurt me and that b.) he's most accomodating to my expressed needs/desires/limits. Too many times I don't speak up -- and I'm kicking myself for not doing so (he can't read my mind) and sometimes, speaking up just makes things even worse -- because now he's self-conscious and walking on eggshells... he doesn't know how we "play" together, either nor what will trigger my pulling back.

When I think of trying to explain what flirting is... I think of Lauren Bacall, in one of the Humphrey Bogart movies when she pauses at the door to his private eye office and says, If you need me, just whistle... you know how to whistle don't you? Just put your lips together and blow. The interpretation is open to definition. Double entendres fall into this category. Verbal jousting; witty repartee; outrageous presumptions and conclusions - none of them meant to be taken seriously. Plain silliness and fun... NOT necessarily with a sexual subtext, mind you. Flirting can exist outside of that - but then, I guess that causes a lot of misunderstandings, too.

You're right - little kids DO flirt! It's completely innocent, non-sexual, and totally mirthful; joyful. It's interpersonal play. My 3 yr old grandson is a total flirt and has been known to charm waitresses into extra dessert. He has absolutely no expectation of nor experience of his overtures being rejected. He is only just being himself - fully - having fun, and communicating that to other people. If there is a result he's looking for - it's laughter, love, acceptance - and that's what he's been taught comes of being himself in this way. (Note that his parents do a great job of explaining which behaviors aren't allowed without squashing his sense of love & acceptance for himself, too.) I learn an awful lot about what I missed out on, watching him interact with his parents... and at some level, I know he knows it. He's not completely sure of me; comfortable with me and I give him plenty of space about that.

I keep hoping this is just a phase for me. I mean, learning about boundaries I tended to go overboard about defining and enforcing them. Too strong; too rigid boundaries. Hubs pointed out one day, that even strong fences have gates in them when we were talking about it. We invite in people that we like and trust... and the gate swings both ways... one can still be "safe" outside of the boundaries, too. Since then, I've been able to relax having overnight guests - whole families - stay at my house. Maybe not relaxed enough yet... but way better than before. I'm able to go out socially, be myself and have fun, without the old defensivwe (and self-harm) strategies automatically kicking in.

One more item about this... that I've been kind of dancing around in my own thinking about this: obviously, being married... there is an "us"... and also a Hubs and Amber, as separate people. How do people figure out how much individual time vs "us" time works for them?? What can we do, if I need more me time than he does... and he needs more "us" time than I do?? That might be a digression; might not - since I think it still falls into the boundary category... boundaries in relationships.

So... that's what I've been thinking around this topic. The kicker is: I don't think I can "answer" these questions all by myself... my way. There's sort of a collective, social "understanding" or agreement about flirting... what's acceptable, when, how... just like we have these built-in mental constructs of what being married is like, who does/is what, those kinds of things. Boat - I know that feeling of... sensing... that other people are judging you when you having a little flirt, or fun... it's kinda like how I feel guilty for getting some big tasks off my to-do list -- a ghost from the past. How to banish it? Bones... I understand not being able to read other people's intentions correctly. I'm not Aspie, but I know that when triggered... I'm not feeling at all safe in my own skin... and that completely changes how I interpret other people's comments and body language. This whole topic is a quagmire of uncertainties for me. Go figure.

BonesMS:
Thanks, P.R.

For me, unfortunately, some ugly memories of ugly comments from the NWomb-Donor, have come to the surface.  From my perspective, she used children and their innocent flirtations to exploit them all for her own selfish ends and attempted to justify it with one of the most HIDEOUS comments that a pervert could invent!  GOD, how I HATE that monster for that!

Bones

sKePTiKal:
Bones, m'dear...

I know. I've resisted commenting on some of the stuff you've written about your mom - and even getting into this topic on my own, for myself. What you've written - what you were put through - makes me uncommonly, deeply angry. Flat out - your mom was a criminal... and in today's society, she surely would've been arrested and locked away for life. The things you've shared - well, it doesn't bring out the nicest, mature sides of me either!!

I'm sorry for the awful memories and if it's too much - protect yourself first, OK? My feelings won't be hurt.

Redhead Erin:
PR, we must be o nline at th same time!  I just wrote a long post about flirting in the other thread, apparetly while you were writing this thread!   :lol:

Hopalong:
For me--banter without vamping (Lord knows it can't help to compare myself to a movie sireeen) and being full of good spirits is what helps me connect.

When I'm feeling happy in myself, it just makes it easy to enjoy others.

I really do love meeting people, males included. I find that strong curiosity about other people helps me override my own fears of intimacy.

When I think we're just "swapping stories" and let myself enjoy how human that all is...I lose some of the fear.

Plus which, after my brother, nearly every male I meet seems wonderful.

(This from somebody who can't manage to find time to date...even the nice geezers who do write me.)

xo
Hops

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