my daughter's dilemma

[Hopalong]

The reality of couch-surfing has sunk in. She has literally no money and has begun to feel very uncomfortable about her friends feeding her.

A few days ago she sent me an extremely nasty email about me being codependent, a child, and how she hates having to think about "my F-ing feelings" all the time.

Tonight she called and calmly talked about having no food, no money...but underneath I could hear that she's afraid.

I know she wants/needs money and I am heistating over my choices:
1) send another care box with bread and some snacks as I did two weeks ago
2) send a grocery card
3) send her links on local resources (which I've sent many times before)
4) do nothing, breathe, wait and see

I have written my T to ask his advice. My social worker friend (who is not a mother) is angry with my D and feels she should have to ASK for what she needs. For her, "tough love" comes easier.

My D mentioned coming back up here just to "chill" for a few days. There is no plan. Her foot is better but it sounds as though she's no closer to paid work. I can hear the fear and instability in her voice so don't know if she's in the same space she was in Florida, where she felt so anxious about job hunting that...she coudln't job hunt.

Her phone kept cutting off and she hasn't called me back.

For the last few days since her nasty emails I had just been contemplating the reality that at least now, my daughter hates me. And then -- she turns to me.

It is really really really hard to figure out what is the healthy and sane thing to do. But I do feel a little less reactive, a little less eager to rush in.

I HATE the fact of her suffering. But I'm not sure I have helped her by helping her. At the same time, I'm scared it's really her mental health disabling her, and perhaps having to go to soup kitchens, etc., will "motivate" her.

Is that fair, to a person in her situation? To me it seems cruel. (Her treatment of me has been pretty cruel too, but I can forgive it over and over. I just want to learn the right balance between being responsible for myself -- not accepting abuse -- but still being a good mother.)

TORTURE. Thanks for hearing me vent.

love,
Hops

[Meh]

Wanted to let you know that I heard what you wrote, obviously I can relate somewhat from the perspective of your daughter. I'm not going to say much because I don't know what the best thing to say is, I'm so deep into the woods I can't see the mountain tops anymore myself.

"Foodstamps" help a bit, if she is not receiving it already it is one thing she might be able to do.

I hate to say that "soup kitchens" are a crutch or a lifeline but for me personally haven't been a motivational device.
I say that because since I have been in the downward spiral I have had paid jobs and volunteered etc. but it's still hard to piece it together enough to get me up and out. I have been to soup kitchens and there is no spark or some such thing there that facilitates the change IMO.

I'm sure your daughter's situation is unique to her though. Hopefully something will somehow shift for her.

  

[teartracks]

Dear Hops,

Though your words are spoken in anguish, you are thinking comprehensively and clearly.

No hurt hurts quite so bad as when one's child is hurting  .  I'm so sorry your heart is aching.

Do you suppose an 'intervention' might help?

tt

[debkor]

Hi Hops,

I don't believe your D hates you and I do believe the name calling, co-depenant, child, worrying about your F'ing feelings (are hers).  She sounds disappointed, defeated, scared, and angry. 

I'm a mom and I would send some food/or a gift card (for a supermarket where she lives).  That I couldn't stand/I don't like hunger(and it's my kid) that may be the only thing I would do.  Meanwhile as Boat wrote She can apply for *assistance* food stamps, medical, even cash.


(((Hops)))

Deb

 

[BonesMS]

(((((((((((((((Hops)))))))))))))))))))

My perspective may not be valid as I am not a parent.  At the same time, having worked with a crisis service center before I became too sick to work, I've learned that there are resources available for your D, if she is willing to reach out for them.  I understand your dilemma....you want to help your D and, at the same time, you do not want to enable her to continue her dysfunctional behaviors.  (I guess this is where Al-Anon for families would come in.)

This may be a difficult question to ask......what would your D do if you were PHYSICALLY and/or FINANCIALLY unable to do anything?  (Hypothetically, suppose you were in a hospital or a nursing home and had to depend on social services for your own medical needs/survival?)

I don't know what hotlines are available for you and/or your D.  Have you tried calling 2-1-1 to explore available resources?  Are there hypothermia shelters opening up in her region that she could go to and talk with the staff there?

If she were in my geographic area of the country, I would be referring her to the services and contact people that I know that are here.  (I had to do that with my cousin, who called me up demanding money.  Long story there.)  I guess my approach would be something akin to:  "Give a person a fish and you feed them for a day, teach a person to fish and you feed them for a lifetime."  My question for your D would be:  "Is she willing to learn to fish or does she simply want to sit back and keep screaming "GIMME!" until people around her get fed up with the attitude?

Just my 1/2 cent worth.  IMO.

Bones

[sKePTiKal]

Hops - don't have much time ATM... BUT:

I think as long as you can keep the feelings about the BP -- and the current financial crisis -- SEPARATE... it's better for yourself, and may be a better way to communicate with your D about these things, too. If she can do that.

Obviously, there's a vicious interdependent cycle between the two for your D. Obviously, when that falls completely apart -- she doesn't want to really admit it to mom... but there's nowhere else (in her mind) to go... but mom. Deb's right - her comments are to the "mom in her head". If you want to break the repetitive cycle of that: surprise her and say something she's not expecting.

It might just shift things ENOUGH to start moving toward clarity of communications; and that's gonna be the basis for a plan.

Be back to say more, in a bit. Hang in there, "Mom"!! I know you've gotta be tired to the bone.

[Hopalong]

Hi TT,
I can't stage an intervention. There is no practical way, and I couldn't compel her to come. She's competent even though unwell...But thank you for the thought.

My T suggested I write her some direct things about the relationship...how I felt when she slammed me and then comes back asking for more help as though nothing happened.

I did. Told her I want to be talked to respectfully, and that though her bipolar is real and I know she's under stress, it doesn't excuse treating me that way. He also suggested I set limits if she wants to come back up here (she mentioned it). So I told her if she does, I want her to agree to making an appointment to be evalauted for BP treatment here, or come visit after she's started that process where she is.

And, I'm making bread, will make her a "care box" and likely, slip in a small grocery card. I also sent her links to two resources of support for food down there -- one, the church (they would help her without question) and two, a schedule of free meals given the homeless where she is.

Boat, I really hear you. There's no magical motivator in going to a soup kitchen. In fact, it could increase her despair. I just don't see how handing her more money has moved her forward. There is no plan. She takes no steps. So if I don't keep supporting her too easily, perhaps she'll enter the deep brave struggle you're in, to find her own way to build a life. (I don't want to manipulate her either, but I want to keep being honest about how it feels.)

Meanwhile, I'm praying. My T did said he felt she needed a "wakeup call" about our relationship. I decided to be brave and stick to speaking truthfully about how I feel. (I had been playing along with her conversation, acting as though she hadn't just "spewed" on me a few days before. What I'm understanding from him is, that's not healthy. If she hurts me, I need to acknowledge it, and there needs to be a change. I told her I want an adult relationship with respectful communication.)

Her response may be withdrawal, fury, or perhaps...it'll be better.

I know she is on the edge. Some day I may share with her the image: I keep trying to hold her up in a rough ocean, while she slugs me repeatedly in the head and screams in my ear, "Save me!"

I love her, I am accountable for a lot of the forces that sent her off the rails, and I am not responsible for the choices she makes forever.

I miss her every day. Literally yearn for her. But it's the "her" that's currently buried by her illness. One day, I hope to be knowing this fascinating, warrior woman I know she can become. (She's just got to stop the war with me, because I lose. I am not a warrior. I am a wabbit.)

love and thanks for reading,

Hops

[Hopalong]

I read something on the NAMI bp website that helped, aimed at parents/families:

The Three Cs:

I didn't cause it.
I can't control it.
I can't cure it.

(It's true. I made a lot of stupid mistakes but I did not cause her BP.)

Hops

[BonesMS]

I read something on the NAMI bp website that helped, aimed at parents/families:

The Three Cs:

I didn't cause it.
I can't control it.
I can't cure it.

(It's true. I made a lot of stupid mistakes but I did not cause her BP.)

Hops

Very true.  Al-Anon also reminds members of this as well.

[Izzy_*now*]

hi Hops,
I feel for you, and for your daughter, and have absolutely no idea what I would do.................considering that nothing I did helped my daughter.

Now we are comparing apples and oranges here, but when she married a man in terrible debt, and he (an N which I didn't know about until many years later) kept her isolated, pregnant and in poverty. After he kicked me out of their lives, owing me $55K, I was so hurt and angry that I have never really ( I mean REALLY, but I have set it aside and it kills me that I can/could do that) recovered, but have just gone on with my own ife. Then she wised up and left him and "became a lesbian"-- which comes first, the chicken or the egg?---which when I return to her early years, I see what was there, but I didn't see it then. She was so pretty and had many boys hanging around. (both she and her partner now look like 250# sumo wrestlers and my mind just cannot take it in... I really cannot connect the two people who are one, my daughter.)

But before the lesbian confession, and a sobbing, heartfelt apology for having shut me out, she still shut me out and that, to me, is not an apology! The apology had to be followed up with action!

Now, it is 28 years since she met him and everything blew apart. Then he began asking me for money, which I loaned only for her, and it is 20 years since, when he owed me $55K that he kicked me out of "his family" and "off his property" that I really had some kind of meltdown that I would not acknowledge, but got over it. (So I got over it in a negative way, and after she left him she never came to me for anything.)

I have become a hardened soul over my family and hers---I am very careful now and have one friend who I totally trust and that is my therapist, Karla. She has empathy for me, being she has been through the pain, rehabilitation and Nism on both her side and her husband's side, to become the wonderful person she is today.

After 2¾ years we have become the best of friends and I know from her and from other people that I am not a bad person. The area whereby I have problems is ONLY with my family and that is deeply rooted, and requires a long story, plus 72 years of therapy and I am already 72, with all this crap with which to deal. I don't need tha hassle.

However, if she were to suddenly come to me about something, I would not "feel able to help her" after all she and her family did to isolate me. You see, when my sisters, my brother, their children (her first cousins) find Anita so chaming and all that crap I can tell that the blame is landing on my shoulders. She is a part of that family that was once "mine", but no longer, in spite of all the dysfunction that apparently hit me the most and now I have withdrawn from all of them, for the most part.

In the long run, as I now continue with my life, such as it is, I see more and more of my mother in me...........my mother who never showed me any love, or caring and support when I was little--totally oppposite to how I was raising my daughter, with support, compliments, just being there for everything, and anything about my Mother leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

I just became the person I wanted to be, without that family before and after me. When my daughter was 30, she had 3 children, left her N husband, and worked to pay for University. She NEVER came to me for help. (It was all him before.) She now lives her own life and I am just not a part of it.

I can be nosy and scan her Facebook page, but by her profile image I can (or think I can) tell what her mood is. For some months now it is a 'cartoon' distressed woman. Her eldest son and her daughter are her 'friends' but not the youngest who wrote to me and said that she kicked him out of the house, after some fierce argument (over 2 years ago)................and we all know that a 19 year old boy is just that....a boy, and he doesn't respond now to my messages, now.

So many people have so much more going for them than I ever did, and I really have no sympathy for out and out whiners. I see the 2 sides of me now!............and stick with the better side, but must learn empathy for others.

After waiting 9 months for my appointment with a phsyatrist, I was informed that I was not booked 9 months ago.....only told that he had 2 hours. I managed to get through the 9 months and the week before, a new Ass't to my lawyer advised me that I had not been booked. Karla was furious and I was non-reactive, as though..."that is the story of my life".

Re empathy, I find I can only do that if the person is deserving, otherwise I'm thinking about the hell I have gone through, emotionly and physically and know that if I feel to much dependency coming on, I will do the suicide trick.... if I could only think of a way to be sure and not suffer. I'm 72 and was struck down at 30. My daughter was 5 then and is now 47. I have no sense of reality in my life....it is like I have always thought since I was little... I am on the outside looking in.

Enough about me, as I can tell it now, but does your daughter ever 'fess up to the misery she goes through?

Somehow I feel as though I hijacked your thread but had no intention of doing so. It's the mother/daughter thing and dysfunction, but we are different, yet I wondered if you could glean anything from me, and my offspring.

Much Love and Happiness........................................
Skits

[Hopalong]

thanks, Bones...I agree, pointing her to resources where she is does make a lot of sense. I've tried. My worry is whether she has the will and focus to go get the help she needs. I've identified the names, offices, locations, phone numbers, sent links.... Pride is a huge piece...just like I'm struggling with my involuntary downslide, economically, I think she also is suffering a huge shift in self image. She's been a glamorous young woman, with a flair for living...but she can't live that way any more.

PR, I am not sure what you mean about keeping my feelings about money and BP separate but it sounds like good advice. The money issue is nearly moot anyway, because as Bones points out, there is a point at which a person does not have money to give another person, or has to begin weighing joining them in their circumstances. You see, it's not an issue of my being overly concerned about what to do with a given amount of money, the way one might choose among investments, it's that I do not have money to support her. The odd grocery card, sure. But it's not sustainable.

TT, thank you for your kindness, always. BP is not a PD but a MI (mental illness). Perhaps an undiagnosed PD is also part of the problem, but the largest issue that is known and diagnosed is an MI, bipolar disorder. I'm learning more about it as I read. The parents' forums on the NAMI and BPDA sites are doozies. And the degree to which the "system" fails folks with MIs is terrifying.

BP is a new enemy in the room, and it's got an octopus hug going with someone I love. You don't always feel capable of pulling off an octopus arm without pulling apart your loved one.

Skits, hon, I hear you and appreciate your caring. Your story is burningly sad one and I know you hear my heart...hurting in some of the same ways. As to your question on chicken and egg, as I understand it from years of reading about it--and having gay friends--it's the egg. It just doesn't manifest fully in many people until enough years have gone by that the deeper identity can surface in spite of all the social stigma and pressure to deny it. Their weight and appearance? Not healthy but not related to sexuality. (You should see one of my best pals...she is very large and walks like a man, and it's simply who she is. She'd like to be thinner for health reasons, but not to be more feminine.)

You asked about her misery...when she lived here with me, hitting the first of several "bottoms" in her depression...yes. She wept and shared some of the bleakest most despairing feelings imaginable. Self hatred and pure and powerful hopelessness and negativity. Negativity is an understatement, it was almost like a force of darkness. I was horrifed by how deep and near-nihilistic her pain was. Felt like I was waving bandaids at a punctured artery. Her suffering has been ungodly painful. Yet for a long time now, there has been absolute unwillingness to do anything advised, that might turn her toward some light. (She did once mention the idea of Quaker meeting, and I so hope she'll go. She's in a largely Quaker city now, so perhaps that will occur to her again. Anything. The Happy Knitters Club. I just want her to find hope again.) Getting on the right Rx would be the first step though, but she has to GO to the resources to get evaluated.

Oy, I'm recycling. Thanks for listening, all, hope I didn't miss thanking anybody...

love
Hops

[sKePTiKal]

I know she is on the edge. Some day I may share with her the image: I keep trying to hold her up in a rough ocean, while she slugs me repeatedly in the head and screams in my ear, "Save me!"

Can you tell her that now, Hops? In your gentle way? It just might get through to her - that she's not the only one suffering here. For good/bad... for what it's worth. Just to say it.

You are not responsible for her BP - nor her current situation, Hops. Truly. No matter what happened in the past - to the both of you, and what you experienced in the give/take between each of you. No matter the decisions you personally made that impacted her - you were NOT like your own NM to your D; and she wasn't YOU.

It took a couple of years of hearing this from my own D, before I started to finally realize what she was telling me. What she was telling me, was that I didn't have nearly the impact, the control, the influence over and on her -- that, looking backwards, I guiltily thought I did. I thought her difficulties were my fault, because I was in the midst of unravelling how I had been manipulated and affected by my Nmom. My D didn't appreciate that I thought she was that much of a pushover; which is exactly the message my over-responsibility reflex implied.

Other D is currently struggling, though she finally has a goal, a plan, she's putting one foot in front of the other. It's a difficult hole to climb out of - for anyone. She backslid into overwhelmed helplessness and despair the other day... and needed just plain old mothering and practical solutions. She's not used to having a mom; or even a cheerleader who believes in her, so she doesn't have that ability to do this for herself yet. Without support. That wasn't my doing - she forced it on me - long story. And we're still not close, but we're getting there. I'm closer to some of y'all on the board than I am with her. There's still a bit of wariness I feel... about whether she'll start slugging me again (like in your image, Hops)... or simply "solve" her problem with another crappy relationship or functionally disintegrate... letting the elements of her whole life slip away. So, I'm cheerleading, supporting, mothering, celebrating the small triumphs... reminding her she is entitled to some of all of this... and sending her back on her way again. Other D and I can simply talk all that out; this D and I have a few things to work through before we get to that point... but we've tentatively taken a few steps in that direction.

I have to keep my feelings about our strained relationship in a completely separate place, to be able to do this kind of moral support with her. For me, it's the only way I can break with old patterns of relating to her... and teach her, by example, how to do that for herself, too. It's just not the time/place to deal with those old feelings; it won't help solve her practical problems either. I have to be able to genuinely be here for her with what she really, really needs instead: someone who'll listen to her whine, vent & talk herself around; someone who cares enough to do this; and someone who believes she can do all she's working on, too. All by herself or with a reasonable amount of support. That's really what I meant in my post, yesterday... but my tongue & brain was all tripping over itself in my rush yesterday. (no... I didn't get back here, either; the day took me lots of other places after my meeting.)

The other thing I thought of, that might help loosen some of the knots you're in, Hops... is to affirm that Mom is allowed to want what she wants for D. That's not N - nor is it controlling. It's only when we force what we want on someone else that we start to venture into that territory. Your D may not be able to appreciate this, right now. But, you're going through crisis-exhaustion on one level... and you have your own feelings - that you're entitled to - about her situation... and then, there's you and what you need, since last I checked you're a very emotional human person. Having some predictability - certainty that she's handling her own situation responsibly - would help you greatly. Perhaps you could ask this much, of her... or start working toward that after she accepts responsibility for managing the PD.

I hope you get some of that predictability soon, Hops. A person can only take so much... before you have to start protecting yourself.

[teartracks]

Hops,

Thinking about you and D. I was reminded of how often time, itself took care of so many things.  In other words, in times of crises, chaos, and tragedy, saying 'this too shall pass' helped. It's of little comfort to say it to our hearts, but acknowledging the truth of it moment to moment in our heads sometimes helps.

Blessings and prayers,

tt

[cat]

Hops - my heart just breaks for you and your daughter.  In the area I live - I am associated with a Free Clinic - providing medical help for those who have no insurance.  We have many people who made so much money, and had so much money saved they never went on unemployment.  Now they are broken and devastated by the turn in the economy.  However, at the Clinic we strive to give people a sense of purpose.  They just cannot come in and get medical care for free.  They need to go help someone else. We give them a voucher and ask them to go work for an hour as a volunteer doing some type of public service.

Sometimes they help out at churches, the Salvation Army, or in one case - they helped out at the City where I live.  I do understand the problem of pride. . . I really do.  However, when you start volunteering around people who are absolutely broken and in some cases, in the same boat as you - the outlook really changes.  The social services in the area do a great job of providing necessities to people - but they also provide a great means to look forward to helping others.

It certainly helped me when I was unemployed!

[Hopalong]

Thanks, PR...it's great you've found a successful way of relating to your D, and that she permits it. That's wonderful.

Cat, thank you. I couldn't agree more about what you describe. The dilemma for me is that there are fountains of wisdom, perspective, practical resources, places to go for help, processes, therapies, activities, outlooks, thoughts, perspectives, transformations, trusts, exercises in reaching out. There are MANY things she should and could do and the thing I must accept is that it just doesn't matter how much perspective, wisdom, advice or guidance I shovel toward her.

ONLY SHE can decide whether to fight for herself. All she really wants from me lately is money. And I'm running out.

So we're back to Bones' scenario. I don't know what she would do if I were unable to be a buffer or a last resort. And, I'm closer than I was before to being willing to risk finding out.

It's very frightening. Lifelong estrangement terrifies me but I think I need the courage to risk estrangement now. She just goes toxic in relationship to me and nothing I do--not supporting her for the year here, not going with her to a therapist, not the emergency bailouts to pay her rent and flying to Miami to help her move--all at the cost of my own security which is tentative--not anything I have done...has moved her forward.

So I think the real lesson for me is to let go. Calm myself, wait it out. And just hope that she'll find her own strength, and the support she needs.

I have to weather the loss, because it is a loss. A child who won't even call you when you're alone on a holiday is a child who really wants nothing to do with you, I think.

I am hopeful that this will change and I am very comforted by those of you who believe it might.

Thanks again for all the support.

love,
Hops