update - NC broken but will be maintained

[BonesMS]

Had a blowout with my NMother this morning. I really dug into with the insults and for the first time ever, I told her what I really thought of her which is that she is a selfish whore, yep, I said it, I said that she married my Dad for his money and never cared about us kids, as is evident with the abusive treatment and neglect she's shown over the years. Argument started because I am starting my own business venture and we already have financial ties that need to be changed and she started in with the undermining and insults, she thinks what I am doing is a scam and that Im not qualified etc. This coming from a 75 year old woman who has not worked since 1968, when I was born. She married my Dad and had children which she clearly never wanted to avoid having to work. Dad became a very successful physician and we inherited nothing when he died in 2000. She's been living quite well of his money for 12 years now and during that time, has lied to us over the years about her financial situation while undercutting us kids (42 and 44) so that we remain close to her.

I was wrong in what I said, I mean in the sense that it was cruel, but I meant it and I feel its true.  She never got the education she wanted, so she controlled and manipulated us to have one, discouraged my dating life and sabotaged numerous of my relationships and derailed my plans to own a home. Anyway, I still have a lot of resentment with her that comes out in these arguments although I feel so much better afterwards.  She cant hurt me anymore than she already has, there is no chance of us ever having a normal relationship and I dont care to, so I just say.do what I feel.  She incredibly uncaring and completely emotionally immature. There were a couple of areas where I should not have said anything, but not sorry that I did.

Ugh. Nice way to start the weekend.

Given what she did to y'all....she deserved it!

[Ales2]

Since late March, I've been trying to forgive her and move on in my life, I was hoping that I had devoted six weeks to reading books and attending a couple of seminars, so the blow up was a real set-back for me and I feel bad about it. Not because of what I said, b/c that is true, even though books I've read say that asking for help to change your feelings can bring new levels of forgiveness and healing. I just feel bad because I thought I had developed more maturity and self control.  Feelings justified, reaction was not.

I suppose I could also be cynical here - if she feels hurt (which she must since she hung up on me) she can blame herself, this is what NMothering taught me.  Not a very mature attitude of course, but true.

In the practical sense, though, its stressing how important it is that I make better decisions, ones that promote NC, specifically, getting away from the financial bind I am in. Involving her in my new business venture out of necessity is NOT a good idea. I would be undermining myself by making this choice.

T really does suck, it was his suggestion that I talk with her.     

[Ales2]

Now I am thinking I was wrong about the Tist.  The confrontation happened because I refused to gloss over the issues, be passive and take an easy NO. I assert myself and push for the answers, and explain my feelings, even if it was not entirely constructive and I hurt her feelings (In the past, I always backed down before doing this but allowed her to hurt me). In the past, I just avoided the confrontation and this made no progress in what I was pursuing or in being more assertive with others as well.  He was right to say "talk to her" - its just another very negative experience I had that I learned I can get through (aside from feeling a little bad a bout it) even if it appears to have made it worse.

I thought his advice was bad, I think remaining NC is very important - but I can see that there is something to learn in not avoiding her either.

The end conclusion about not involving her in the business I think is still the correct decision, but not out of avoidance, out of knowledge that asserting myself wont work with her.  Does that make any sense at all? In other words, dont divorce as a passive avoidance tactic, try to work it out, and divorce if it cant be worked out.

[Twoapenny]

Hi Ales,

I found that talking to my family was like talking to a brick wall.  In a 'normal' situation it's best to talk - sometimes other people don't know you're bothered by something they're doing and will try and do something about a problem if you let them know there is one.  With my family, there is an expected code of behaviour and if you don't adhere to that, you're out.  I tried repeatedly to talk to my mum and wrote letters trying to explain how I felt - basically asking her to see things from my point of view - and it just made her more angry and ramp up the behaviour.  In the end, NC was the only way I could preserve my sanity.  It was just too tiring to have to keep doing her dance.  At least now you can say you tried.  I blew up at my mum last year for the first time in my life and I loved it - it was the first time I hadn't felt scared of her and I let her have it.  No, it isn't mature, or sensible, or what the books tell you to do, but you're human and you can't be expected to deliver your painful feelings in a neat and tidy way every time.  Try not to give yourself a hard time over it.  Regardless of whether or not she deserved it, you have probably got some stuff out of your system and, personally, I don't see why they should get away without a good tongue lashing after all the years of emotional abuse.  It sounds to me like you're doing the right thing.

[Ales2]

Thanks two for your post. I agree with you completely. Just to be a little more clear - when she doesnt understand something, rather than admit she  doesn't know the answer and doesn't understand something, she can't be honest about who she is, so she will throw out a comment to undermine me and take the attention off her and put it on me.  Its all comes back to me being incompetent and unworthy. It took me YEARS to see that dynamic at work and how it affects all aspects of my life. SHe will also lie, present false facts and compare me to someone else to make me feel bad and inferior. My cousin for example is 28 and bought a home. The truth is her parents don't believe in renting so they took out a home equity loan to help with a down payment.  I've been renting for over 20 years now, looking at why others who are my equals buy homes and feeling inferior because Nmom doesn't believe in helping kids owning homes and verbally discouraged me at 39, when I told her I had lost 40k which was my down payment, her response was "what do you need a home for".  Instead of saying, "you are smart and can do it yourself" she will compare us, demean us and belittle us. Her response to my cousins new home was that she works harder than me (an attempt to make me feel inferior), and that quite simply is not true. I've worked full time for over 20 years and saved money several times over and my cousin got her masters at 26 and has been working full time for only two years in elementary education, recently got married and bought the home. There was barely enough time to afford both the home and the wedding - she got both financial help and encouragement.  I got neither. Parents are not required to help their children and can simply decline, but to lie, demean and belittle and then manipulate to get us to remain close is abusive.  She has done something liek this in regards to my job, finances, friends, relationships, everything is a manipulation with her.

You are right about not giving myself a hard time over it - I'm an adult and I know I am smarter than that, but without making excuses, my buttons got pushed. On the other hand, I always took the high road in the past, but ignoring it and letting it go, when in fact it affected me deeply, so can't apologize for the raw emotions behind what I said.   I do feel better for being assertive about her undermining and my feelings towards her.

[Twoapenny]

Hi Ales, I understand exactly what you mean!  I'm quite sure if you'd been buying homes since you were 19 that would have been wrong as well!  My mum was more subtle about it, she'd talk about how brilliant other people were and then slag me off or just ignore me.  For example, she talked endlessly about her friend's daughter's degree result but couldn't tell you what mine was, even though it was just as good!

Re the blow up - I think there are some similarities to what I am going through at the minute - there being a 'right' way to deal with being abused?  We're human - everyone has a breaking point, plus you're in a situation where you haven't been able to voice anything for many years - it's bound to be a bit explosive when it finally comes out.  Hugs for you xx

[Hopalong]

I felt awful the one time I blew up at my Nmother, Ales.
It haunted and troubled me for a long time.
I eventually forgave myself.

I see it partly as the result of my family not knowing how to teach
us to deal with anger. Anger was so repressed (except for my brother's,
and that got plenty of behind-their-backs airspace).

Whatever the reasons or whoever's fault it was, I really yelled that day
at an old woman. Old is by definition vulnerable, and I should not have
done it. It went against my own values and that's what troubled me.

It messed with my sense of being a good person. I don't think I'll
ever see myself as quite the virtuous victim again. It was actually a
loss of innocence.

I do understand the exhaustion and the toxic buildup and the manipulation
that led to my losing it. But I wish I'd seen long before how I was in an
unhealthy situation with her and needed to get out.

In your case, one thread that weaves through is money. It was actually in
mine too, because a house represents security. It did matter what she
did with it, and how. Even though I told myself not to care, when I was
afraid, I did.

Is there a way you can untangle yourself from her money?

Hops

[Ales2]

Hi Hops,

Thanks for your post. I've blown up at my Mother more than once - actually NC has become a requirement because I just cant listen to her lies, nonsense, and belittling anymore. I actually want no further contact with her at all and she knows that.  As I sad, anger justified, reaction not.

As for dealing with Anger, I feel somewhat the same, we are not allowed to angry, parents never do anything wrong and their motives cannot be questioned.  I was sort of pushed and manipulated into being a doormat and I'm not anymore, which is her problem for having the expectation, not mine anymore.

Yelling at an old woman - well I did that too - and really only regret having to do it now. It seems immature, but it should have been said a long time ago. I can see two relationships right now, where I try to be nice hoping they will be nice on return because I so want the friendship, but I'm learning not to sacrifice my respect for it.

The money issue. The irony is that just when I decided I needed help, a short time after was when I discovered the Nism. So I got sucked in before I had a conscious knowledge of what was happening. I knew she was difficult and dreaded getting $$ involved but had no other options. I also thought since I had not inherited anything, maybe we'd settle some issues, but it only got worse.  So, I'm working on fixing that problem in the short term. Problem is that she is always in the background and in order to completely eliminate the problem, it means I need to find a sufficient job, make my business venture work and then cut all ties. When I am independent, she finds ways to undermine me in other ways with money and so complete NC will have to be key.

Thanks for your post, Hops.

[Ales2]

Things have somewhat improved with the discussions, we've since had three conversations, including one visit where she brought my 17 year old nephew by to see me.  My problem is that I see a pattern continuing with her that I need to end completely, as it will never change. I dont want her involved with my business any further, so the best option is to let the business venture issue runs its course, and find other employment to launch my business. 

I think I need to start an accountability thread, as I am now doing and saying things I need to remember for the future, or I will step back into the same sinkhole. I should really call it a "stinkhole". But you all know what I am referring to.

[Ales2]

I noticed this morning that my April and May was gobbled up with Ncraziness. It was a very bad idea to have talked to her about the business. stuff. I also read several books on forgiveness and had attended a seminar on it, in hopes that maybe it was time to move on in a more spiritual way. In that really awful conversation I had with her last friday, I learned there is still alot under the surface that has not been helped by what I learned in the seminar and have been working on.  One of the principals was to pray to have my feelings change toward the person, so that I could more easily forgive. Trust me, I would like to change my position and feelings toward her, if only because I know that having any bitterness, resentment or anger will stand in my way of a more peaceful life, but will likely need to get the financial break I need to break ties fully.  Even then, she will find ways to migrate back in, but I can simply say - "working and I have no time for that"

Anyway, I could use all good wishes for new opportunities to come along and bring more independence/autonomy to my life. Thanks!

[Ales2]

NMom went to get advice on the business venture. She comes back with some suggestions that were irrelevant to me and when I told her she was undermining me, she tried to invalidate my feelings. (Basically, she wanted to arrange something where she would OWN everything and I would RENT from her, how crazy Nist is that?)  She attempts to control and undermine at every opportunity. When I propose something that would help my independence (invest in a small business), she's completely opposed to it, without seeming to realize that shes fostering dependence.  She can't let me go and uses the financial nonsense to control and manipulate.


I called my T and asked him to meet with her. Its being set up - I dont think he can really help and he's aware that I have low expectations, but she needs to go in.  She's probably only interested in that because I told her that our relationship is OVER several times and I'm beginning to think she knows I mean it.

Anyway, as I said before, I need to find another job to finance myself and this business venture entirely on my own and KICK this N to the curb once and for all. I'm working hard at that but have not yet seen results.

To be continued.......

[BonesMS]

NMom went to get advice on the business venture. She comes back with some suggestions that were irrelevant to me and when I told her she was undermining me, she tried to invalidate my feelings. (Basically, she wanted to arrange something where she would OWN everything and I would RENT from her, how crazy Nist is that?)  She attempts to control and undermine at every opportunity. When I propose something that would help my independence (invest in a small business), she's completely opposed to it, without seeming to realize that shes fostering dependence.  She can't let me go and uses the financial nonsense to control and manipulate.


I called my T and asked him to meet with her. Its being set up - I dont think he can really help and he's aware that I have low expectations, but she needs to go in.  She's probably only interested in that because I told her that our relationship is OVER several times and I'm beginning to think she knows I mean it.

Anyway, as I said before, I need to find another job to finance myself and this business venture entirely on my own and KICK this N to the curb once and for all. I'm working hard at that but have not yet seen results.

To be continued.......

((((((((((((((((((((((Ales2))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Bones

[Ales2]

Thanks Bones.

Okay, here is the prescription I have set for myself:

Respect myself/Remain NC - both verbal and financial
Get a sufficient job - deal with my finances - finish my writing projects - buy a home
renew my faith (just the common kind that believes life WILL get better)
forgiveness (believing that my feelings can change, so I wont remain bitter for my losses)
have a resource list to seek support as needed (this board and 3 other sources)
manage my depression/anxiety/pms/insomnia stick with workout program and lose weight
renew my connections, hope to meet someone and have more fun, plan a vacation

I can read countless more books, learn more things, but none of those lessons end up being the right "prescription" for me. I'm posting this to be accountable and hope to see results soon.

Thanks to all.

[BonesMS]

Thanks Bones.

Okay, here is the prescription I have set for myself:

Respect myself/Remain NC - both verbal and financial
Get a sufficient job - deal with my finances - finish my writing projects - buy a home
renew my faith (just the common kind that believes life WILL get better)
forgiveness (believing that my feelings can change, so I wont remain bitter for my losses)
have a resource list to seek support as needed (this board and 3 other sources)
manage my depression/anxiety/pms/insomnia stick with workout program and lose weight
renew my connections, hope to meet someone and have more fun, plan a vacation

I can read countless more books, learn more things, but none of those lessons end up being the right "prescription" for me. I'm posting this to be accountable and hope to see results soon.

Thanks to all.

I like your prescription!

Bones

[Ales2]

I'm blasting rule no#1 - remain NC. I booked an appointment for my NMom to meet my T.  Despite what I complain about with him he is a good guy and smart - I dont have big expectations, I just need him to see her and maybe get more an idea of what I deal with and how I should handle her better. That said, I'm pretty sure he knows my intentions are to remain NC with her, not to reconcile in any way. Any work done might be for her to just get that idea, since I doubt she wont ever understand it, she will just have to accept it. I have no idea what he will tell her but maybe hearing something from him would be helpful.

Anyway, not sure if this was a good idea, I'm afraid it might backfire or stir up more trouble. 

One thing I am noticing - being assertive is great and all that but there are some people who are prejudiced or stubborn to the extent that attempts at conlfict resolution cause more trouble and should just be avoided. Not sure that is the case here.

We shall see.