Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Hopalong on October 03, 2011, 10:20:48 PM
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Can't find my original post with this subject name, drat it. Search engine doesn't pull it up.
Can't verbalize how all this feels or is, at the moment, but need to say it, fwiw:
My D is down to her last $300, 19 hours away.
She has been diagnosed bipolar (I did not know this until a few months ago).
Her electricity is being turned off tomorrow.
Her stepmother, for whom she was a hospice companion, has been moved from the area to hospice in another state. So she has just said goodbye to her.
She has seen, and bid farewell to again (after 7 years of no contact, this brought them together again temporarily) her two longed-for brothers (one step- and one half-) and just said goodbye to them again. They neglect her and can't be of much help. One was tolerant, the other hostile.
Her friends are shaky in their support (and most are in other states).
Her phone will probably be turned off soon too.
Her landlord lives next door to her apt. and the regular voicemails (reminders) from his staff unnerve her.
She is having sustained panic attacks.
She has a broken-thread, unsubstantial support system where she is.
She is huddled in her apartment, which she can't get it together to clean, and terrified.
She is being more in touch and more honest with me than ever.
She is falling apart.
My heart is ripped and I don't know what to do.
I have barely gotten my nose above the surface of the water again since bailing her out last time.
To do it again would be like putting my fingers in a hole in a dike. A month ago I went to the wall and coughed up a few thousand on credit to keep her going. I made her write out a plan. She didn't follow through (having the very good though totally "distracting" explanation of the vigil with her stepmom).
I am rent in two over it.
Hops
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(((Hops))) I'm so sorry.
I can't imagine the pain and frustration you must be feeling.
What is your daughter asking you to do, if anything?
Is she on medication?
Do you feel she needs to hit rock bottom in order to be open to growth and healing?
You've gone through this with her before. What did you learn from that experience?
What do you wish you'd done differently, if anything?
::sending you and your d strength and healing::
Lighter
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I'm so sorry Hops.
I so know how awful this is for you... the flood of feelings that go in more than one direction that leave you unsure of what that one "magic" thing is that will make things all right again, for your D. I wish I knew what it was and could send you the magic wand to "make it so". You just have to promise to send it back... because I KNOW that I'll have reason to need it again, too. Maybe we can make one to pass around, to whomever needs it at the moment?
There just isn't a finite limit or end to a mom's job description or wish to make all right with the world. The hard part is that this has to co-exist with the realities of life and all those rational decisions that we make on a daily basis. I'm not sure I completely buy in to the current tough-love, never rescue the flailing fledgling philosophy anymore. On occasion, I've taken those decisions... that path... and while it brought peace and sanity to my immediate head space, it was really just buying time for me to realize that I can't live with myself under those decisions. It just doesn't feel right to me to walk away from someone I love who needs me.
But it's also not right for me, to suffer helplesslessly - nor you either, Hops - because of our life limitations; the restrictions on our ability to use magic mom skills to right the world for our kids. And talking it all out is just about the only thing that works for me. Why don't you try it here? You just need to throw your own ideas and feelings and situational spagetti against the wall, until you see what you can/can't do under the circumstances... and be at peace with it. (I'll try and hold back my Ms. Fix-it, take this advice and call me in the morning reflex while you're sorting it all out.)
There IS a solution but it's probably "a little of this and a little of that" and some trial and error, too. There's no one simple recipe and each situation is different. But, for sure... I know you & D will get through this too, to another comfortable, peaceful place.
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Thanks, Lighter and PR--.
She's on SSRIs but not mood stabilizer (said they didn't work for her).
There's some MD down there she was referred to by her college but now that
she's done w/school (and she has no insurance) she can't afford to see him.
He calls in Rx refills for her, evidently. She mentioned "a therapist" but partially discloses
and I have no clarity on whether this is a current, available therapist who's seeing her for free, or what.
She also said she's heard her school's counseling service has a crappy reputation and she feels her T
has not helped her ata ll.
I don't know how much more "bottom" there is for her.
I understand the "hitting bottom" concept but I'd say she's bounced very hard, twice now,
in the last year...and the definition of bottom keeps dropping. This is pretty
bad. No power (she'll lose all her food) and no job. Emotional loss on top of loss
(cat died, stepmother gone for good, brothers gone...). She's struggling to get the comfort
and attention she needs from her friends but her needs are overwhelming and her desperation
is alienating them.
She says it's almost impossible to pull it together and do the perky upbeat
energy one has to emit to job hunt. I get it. Full-tilt panic is completely disabling.
What she wants from me is help--and basically, the only form is money. She
can't really take my advice very well. At the same time, she wants to do everything
her way. I tried, when I bailed her out a month ago, to insist on a plan first.
She wrote me a detailed plan about the steps she would have to take (and
actually called around to the agencies) if she became homeless. But....she
didn't get a job. So it's a month later, same bills are due, and she's worse off.
She is full of shame and pain but is no longer blaming me.
They can't evict her overnight but without electricity her situation is surely
accelerated. I stopped payment when she again charged it to my bank
account without my permission (we'd been through this before and she'd
sworn it was a "mistake". This time, I learned she'd have had to intentionally
enter my info in, online. They said so, anyway. I'm feeling enormous guilt.)
I knew what the consequences would be. She "knew" but had avoided facing it.
I feel like I personally have shoved her underwater. But it triggers strong feelings
to find something removed from my bank account without my authorization. I am
struggling with my own financial fears and ADD-bookkeeping issues and felt betrayed, etc.
BUT...she urgently needs help. I have sent her links to resources and info (had to
repeat all the addresses and phone numbers, since she'd not retained my email--
or can't get online from home). She is so shaky she can't get to the library to do
research. She's trying to decide between giving $150 to her landlord or putting
gas in the car so she can get to a doctor or mental health clinic. It's that much
of a precipice she's on. She's essentially hiding indoors...
I can't think of any other thing to do other than to provide money. I will not
permit anyone to have access to my checking account so I guess sending her
money by Western Union or some such is the way to go. There are 3 major
things:
-- (paying up her current rent of $800, which will complete her lease--
I'm certain they won't re-sign her). I believe she'd then be unmolested in her
apt. through the end of October, or possible mid-November. (It seems to go
from the 15th to the 15th).
--paying her electric bill so she won't lose her food and AC
--paying her cell phone (I already agreed to do a minimum, but she owes
back charges)
All in all it's probably another $2000+. I can't afford it, but don't know what
else to do. What I can't evaluate is whether there's any point, or whether in 4 weeks
there'll just be a dire need for another $1500, etc etc etc -- and I simply can't sustain her.
I really can't.
What I did a year+ ago when she was desperate (her car had died) was
tell her, I can offer you free food and shelter, but all I can pay for is a UHaul
to get you here. Then, we had the devastatingly horrible year together which
traumatized us both. She has said if she had to come back to this town she'd
want to kill herself. (I said of course then, this is not an option.)
Still, she has a way of blocking every possible exit or alternative for herself.
There's something wrong with every single one, as she sees it.
I've suggested she contact relatives in another city, on her father's side, to
see if the family would give her a room for a while, or try to help her out.
She called an aunt who changed the subject and "had to go" when D told
her she was in dire financial straits. So she's not sure she should go there.
She has friends in another city who'd let her stay with them a while and has
given that a little thought.
She told me she just wasn't sure she could cope with a major state to state
move right now.
I think she's terrified, in very bad mental shape, and can't see a solution.
I know I could send money but I don't know if that's something that will
ultimately change anything. It will make me worse and at best, buy her a couple weeks.
I understand the theory of "let them experience consequences" but if those
consequences include homelessness, desperation, or complete mental breakdown
or suicide...then I would sacrifice anything for her.
It's hard to know what to do because one month ago, it was the same thing.
My T said paying one thing or another is "a finger in the dike." Meaning, I could
pay one more month's rent. At the end of that, where is she. What's changed.
She has inadequately treated bipolar (and possibly ADD) and ---
Shit. I just don't know. I could also go down there, but I don't know if she
would let me help her. She is trying so hard to control things but it just makes
it harder to help... And spending the money to make a trip there, the flight etc.,
plus renting a car there -- would wind up costing half what it would cost to just
send her money. I also am afraid. But I'd do it if that was the right next thing.
(Already told my workplace I might have to fairly suddenly take a long weekend).
If she got a decision, and a plan to move somewhere, I told her I would come be
moral support and help pack, etc. I am reluctant though to go prematurely and just watch
her NOT be readying for the next location. I would spend all that to get there and then
have to leave her in just as bad shape as before--and then I'd have less ability to send
her money.
Thank you for reading,
Hops
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Oh beloved Hops,
So sorry for your pain and your daughters.
Have you considered contacting church outreaches? I'm sure there are many in her area and I feel confident they would help her temporarily and perhaps see her through this down period. If you decide to contact churches on her behalf, it would probably be best to select one that has resources/people/counselors (all from the same church) who can help see your daughter through this terrible down time; things necessary to keep her apartment going, food, etc. There is a wonderful organization called Crown Ministeries (search online) that gives free, professional financial counseling and help with budgeting. I believe with a few calls, you can rally those needed to come to your daughter's aid.
tt
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Another possible option is to call 2-1-1 to see what other resources might be available to help.
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Thanks, TT, and Bones--
I love the church support idea but she's pretty fiercely atheist and I'm not sure could swallow her theological differences (maybe fears) enough to turn to a Bible-based ministry. I have tried for ages to encourage her to get involved in the local UU church -- she did once before, actually rented a room from a member, the relationship soured (all this was before her year with me). I will mention it to her but have figured out that me trying to long-distance get others involved in helping her just backfires.
I have sent her SO many links to local resources, but it's like leading the horse to water.
She called earlier and is momentarily cheerful because friends there did take her for a bday lunch today.
It's like--for that moment, she's fine, so she was going to take a nap.
She had asked me for a specific book (Take Control of Bipolar) and has told me firmly and clearly that the solutions have to come from herself.
I think perhaps I need to let go and trust the universe.
It's just that my own anguish and fear over her make me want to take urgent action.
And she's so changeable that one evening she'll seem completely irrational and the next afternoon, quite calm.
I think, for this moment/day -- I'm going to just be still and see what happens. Torturous.
And I gathered her power hadn't been turned off yet. Perhaps the friends gave her some practical encouragement too today.
I just have no idea. I think I have to make my peace with it. It is soooooooo long-distance that I'm not confident that without her participation,
I can do much. (For example, I call all these resources, even including Crown, and they call her...and she ignores the call. This happened with
another resource/opportunity I sent her...she just won't take the hand that's offered.)
She seems excited by reading the 2 books I sent her, is getting some understanding of her diagnosis.
Her instability is matched by her stubbornness.
I need to contain my own anxiety over her, and thank you very much for hearing it...
love,
Hops
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I hear you, TT....
I have had 3 different personal connections (including one whose partner is a HR professional, and they expressed GREAT willingness to have her come over, brainstorm with her...sent the warmest, kindest response--these are UU folks I knew many years ago, another church friend suggested). I forwarded all the contact info to her, and they emailed her...then wrote me in bewilderment that there was no response. Another, a big cheese attorney, told me he would happily take her to lunch and see if he could help. She let that offer fall to the floor too.
So as much as I wish finding the right organization were the answer, the real problem is that she is not responding. Particularly to advice or suggestions that stem from me....
Thanks for the thought (heck, she mentioned a few months ago some interest in attending a Quaker service, which would be wonderful...but never has done it.)
Part of my struggle is that I listen to her for hours, her anguished calls when she is panicking. But that's all I can do. I could send more money (down the rabbit hole) but it's just about useless to offer her advice. She just -- can't take it.
It grieves me madly but I even think sometimes I need to spend less time listening. I can't handle it myself when it goes on and on and on but she won't do One Single Actual Thing. She's incredibly eloquent about how trapped and hopeless she feels...but won't (or truly can't) take even Step One to begin to turn her ship around.
It makes me desperately worried and anxious but she also gets mad at me if I convey any of that worry. She screens my tone of voice, everything I say, and lectures me at length on how that is "not helpful". It's torturous. Basically I need to wear a muzzle, listen, and have no emotional response.
I guess she doesn't know how much that's asking of me...I know I fail to behave like a perfect therapist-parent.
Hops
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I just withdrew from her on the phone--saying I needed to go to bed early--and then was stricken with guilt, called her back several times, she won't pick up, etc. So now I'm anxious about that too.
I am SO ANXIOUS myself, and what she seems to want is for me to be totally unflappably absorbent while she describes pure disaster over and over and over...but NOT reveal any of my own anxiety or distress. It reminds me of the 2-hour "listening sessions" she would demand when she lived here.
It nearly breaks my own mind and my own anxiety load is getting huger and I can't be everything or all she needs, but she manipulates and controls me even while I'm trying to help. (My SW friend said she's manipulative, and I know that's true.)
I am also sensitive and an anxious type and I'm worried sick and I feel helpless. I'm failing her. But I'm starting to flail myself -- I can't manage my own life if I get completely absorbed in hours of disaster narrative every night....
I am just desperately concerned about her but also about myself, it's like she's drowning and I am trying to hold her above the water while she periodically punches me in the face while screaming, Save Me.
(She did just call back. I expressed, stumblingly, that I didn't mean AT ALL to withdraw support but that I was trying to deal with my own self and felt I couldn't listen very well tonight...and she made clear she understood. She'll call me tomorrow.)
One small thing is she'll talk at great length about minutiae...things in her closet, etc.--and my mind is screaming, DO SOMETHING...she gets all absorbed in things that have nothing to do with getting income or finding a place to stay or what is she going to do if her electricity is suddenly shut off....so now, she's going over to a friend's house to visit two kittens.
I just can't handle it sometimes.
Hops
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Breaaaaaaaaaaaathe.
Okay. Want to say--no worries if you can't think of solutions.
Just being heard here has great value and I am grateful this board was here today.
love,
Hops
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All you can do is breathe and remember what Al-Anon teaches.....detach with love.
Another resource that might be helpful, for someone in your position, is NAMI. Dealing with someone with Bipolar Disorder is NOT easy, especially if they refuse to do even anything basic.
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thank you so much, Bones.
xo
Hops
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Hops - my post from last night apparently zipped out into the ozone. I spent all day yesterday in a total techie frustration loop, so that's not too surprising. Maybe it's even a good thing, because out of what you describe a pattern started to emerge for me about her behavior. I don't know how to tag it with a name - but there is an emotional mechanical interchange going on here. A give & take that leads... to the same old place? or somewhere different? I don't know.
I'm still tongue-tied this morning too and don't know what to say..... except that you need a break from the catastrophizing. A time-out. And someone to tell you, that mommy or not....
your D is a smart girl. She's accomplished a lot. She has convinced herself the "key" is more in finding an explanation to herself - of herself... and so minimizes the practical crises she's facing; they're just not as important to her. In fact, she might be falling prey to blaming her current predicament on a diagnosis... that right now, isn't verified. You don't have to buy into it.
The sky isn't going to fall if you don't react immediately. Regain your balance, get some real rest and relaxation, keep talking this through - I'm listening and biting my own tongue because it wants to say things that I'm not sure really fit your situation (my tongue is a twit right now). I think you're getting there... starting to shift the pieces around to get them in the right order... so that the pattern becomes clear.
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oh hey... I had a practical idea... what if you put the main elements of the situation on a separate post-it note, then re-arranged them in priorities... or connections... or whatever makes sense to you... using a wall or table?
I've done this some times, when a situation seems way too big or complex for me to hold in my head at one time.
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oh hey... I had a practical idea... what if you put the main elements of the situation on a separate post-it note, then re-arranged them in priorities... or connections... or whatever makes sense to you... using a wall or table?
I've done this some times, when a situation seems way too big or complex for me to hold in my head at one time.
I love this, Amber.
Thank you.
Lighter
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Hops, I know you'll toss it if it doesn't work for you. On those post-its, how about including:
What would she do if I was killed by a truck yesterday?
What would she do if I was in hospital and unconscious?
What would she do if she couldn't get me on the phone?
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thank you so much, Bones.
xo
Hops
((((((((((((((((((((((((((Hops)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
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EXACTLY FW...
Good questions, all.
More to say along those lines, just not time yet - and no time to type it, either.
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Thanks for the suggestion, PR -- I can see you rearranging knotty bits visually, like an artist and a programmer at once. Would that I could hand over all the bits and have a sure eye for the final pattern! Thank you for applying your mind to it, I truly appreciate the thinking.
FW, those are insightful questions, because they direct me back to her scraps of resourcefulness. I don't know, and perhaps I can't know, just how far over the edge -- or even how far on a downhill slide -- she will go either helplessly or willfully or some combination.
But it is true, if I were gone tomorrow, she would have to find her own way to survive.
I just hope that in cutting off -- or down to merely keeping her phone paid for -- the flow of "bailout", I haven't timed it wrong. That's my terror. I know...ultimately the untangling and backing off...is a healthy process.
But she's sicker than I thought and the economy (and her own) really is terrifying. Bottom dropping out.
It's like being in a vice. Worse, by far, for her.
thank you again,
Hops
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Hops
There is a pattern in this. I'm getting pinged at a couple different places in my experience - my story-experience and the changes to my mom-relationship with my girls.
I see her request for books as a really, really good sign. I felt some urgency in the request, too. It's not a distraction, for your D... I don't think, at root. I really do think she's like many of us here... looking for that explanation that makes it OK to be her... and to marshall the rest of her skills, talents, energy to deal with boring stuff like rent, food, gas, electric. I think she's reaching for enough of an "AHA!" moment... to help her feel "free" enough from whatever soul-issue she's grappling with to care about the other practical things.
I have written; deleted; edited... for 3 days to you. Every mom and daughter have to find their own way through this experience you're going through. Right now, I'm calling it:
Mutually Assured Dependence
What this consists of, changes over time... just as the relationship, quite naturally, changes over time. It's one of the scariest things we go through, as moms. There are some worse, I can think of. But this is never an easy, straight process. The outcomes are never "perfect" to a universal standard... but you can get to what "works" best for both of you.
I hope that's not too cryptic. It's defying my ability to spew words at it and find some that "stick".
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I really do think she's like many of us here... looking for that explanation that makes it OK to be her... and to marshall the rest of her skills, talents, energy to deal with boring stuff like rent, food, gas, electric.
Truly, she is. We're all in the same human boat. And her process of de-enmeshing, individuating better, setting boundaries -- I am utterly on board.
The crisis now isn't my wanting to cling, it's that she's really ill. I've been educating myself on bipolar and if (I don't know!) this is a true bipolar crisis--it's not about maturation or processes or "learning" or identity processing...it's about her possibly being in an acute situation because she is unwell. She's down to $300 and has no income, and no plan, and an angry landlord who may be about to evict her. (She's meeting with him now.) I couldn't reach her last night. Wrote my T, who gives good advice...he suggested I call the local emergency services, describe her situation/symptoms as best I can and see what they advise. Bottom line, they think if I haven't heard from her by tonight I should contact someone in the area to go check on her (I would first try the remote church contact I have; then I do have one phone number of her acquaintances in the area). Last resort, ask the police to check on her.
Any confrontation or intervention or "calling in the cowboys" will mean a complete challenge to and possible rupture in our relationship, so I'm thinking very cautiously and want to err on the side of NOT intervening. But, the challenge is, I must keep separate my respect for her autonomy and the actual "medicalness" of what she's going through. The only information I have is my best observations of how she's been sounding on the phone. Up, down, crashed, manic, panicked, or, now...silent. It's hard to know and I can't be a professional and assess it that way.
According to bipolar crisis info from the NAMI and similar orgs, her literally not being able to take care of her life, clean her apartment, make decisions to get unstuck--and that she really isn't being adequately treated (has a phone-in SSRI from a shrink she can no longer afford to see since she's left school, and the school T she did have she believes hasn't helped her at all)--all add up to suggesting a hospitalization (voluntary would be ideal) to get her stabilized and doing better.
I literally can't imagine how she'd respond to that suggestion, but probably with horror, fear and rage. She is just now coming around to accepting how serious the diagnosis is...I realize she's been in denial about its impact for a very long time. Probably isn't a coincidence that she decided to tell me about it a few months ago. She's asked for books and has started wanting to talk about it...but my comments must be VERY calm and limited when she brings it up.
The toughest thing to bear is that my anxiety about her spiraled, too, and one recent evening I had to tell her I really wouldn't be able to do a good job listening that evening. I am trying so hard to be calm and unreactive every time I hear from her. That is what she needs. But it triggers me too, so though I help her some, I do an uneven job of it.
Anyway...that's the update as of now.
If anybody's reading this--send her white light as she's right now in conversation with her pissed-off landlord. He happens to be a physician (an eye dr.) so my prayer is that she'll tell him more about herself, and that he'll be kind.
love,
Hops
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Oh for god's sake.
While I'm utterly panicking, talking to MH professionals, imagining the worst...
She had an out-of-town friend stop by (very kind friend) who helped her clean up her apartment, move furniture, and throw out tons of stuff.
So while I'm imagining her crashed and endangered, she's redecorating. Her phone was on vibrate.
She blew off her meeting with the landlord. "I don't want to think about that now."
Anyway, I'm drained. I know her next crash will come, and she still has no plan.
But she sure was cheerful (maybe manic, I don't know--).
If my hair wasn't white last week, it'd have turned.
Thanks for listening, none of it wasted...the issue is not going anywhere but she's clearly okay for today.
love,
Hops
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Whew. Glad your daughter was having a positive day, even if you weren't, Hops.
Lighter
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Thanks, all, Lighter and TT...
And TT, me too!
love and gratitude,
Hops
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OY VEY, Hops... !!!!
Time for you to take a time-out from the problem, probably... I'm sending you visions of a nature meditation retreat, a lonnng massage, yummy foods and a down feather bed.... and perhaps, an attentive and attractive pool boy, too. Yes, white light to D too... but with a different result in mind.
I thought I saw a feedback loop, in your Ds behavior... with one small (but vital) glitch. That mutually assured dependence, consists of someone caring for/about her - giving her that input... so that she can feel OK about herself, safe enough to give herself one thing at a time (even tho that one thing seems irrelevant to the urgency of circumstances) - like a nap. The problem or glitch comes in... that she isn't - for whatever reason - able to convert that positive input into being able to provide it to herself. Right now, I'm getting the sense that the most important thing to her is how she feels in any particular moment. And she's hoping that the good feelings last - all by themselves - and only then, will she be able to really address the basic life issues she's facing. And when they don't last, she then feels beset by the weight of the multiple of problems and they are enlarged with the lack of the positive input (at that very moment that is)... and she seeks that caring/positive input again, with all those hopes attached to the search... etc. And it's unimportant to make contact or connect - when she's already getting that positive attention...
this is only one explanation, and being at a remove from it, I can't vouch for the probability of it being accurate. But it is what was connecting with me, in your descriptions. It scared me to death - for your sake - because it's incredibly slippery to find any sure handholds on it... from the outside. Here's hoping your D can find a handle from the inside... and learn to tame this enough that she can start putting the normal, mundane stuff (to her) together, and relieve you from this level of justified anxiety about her. For you, it's like pissing in the wind... because any and everything you do has no lasting effect, to the good. She's still a long way from that problem on HER priority fix-it list.
And it appears that this is how she's relating to everyone - not just you, dear. It's not the same as co-dependence.... the origins/thought processes/etc are different... but you might be able to use techniques from there... to help a little, in this situation.
AFTER you've had a break from it.
<total aside> OH... and there's a fix for white hair! LOL... mine looks like I stuck my finger in a light socket or was literally scared to death; looks really odd with youthful freckles... so I'm thinkin' it might be time to gradually add back in some color, subtly. The Albert Einstein or Annie Lennox look just doesn't reflect the me inside, you know? I want something warmer, more normal; more "incognito". </total aside>
Hugs...
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PR, this is absolutely spot-on, I believe, and a pretty amazing summary. Thank you.
I'm actually going to share this with my T.
I'm getting the sense that the most important thing to her is how she feels in any particular moment. And she's hoping that the good feelings last - all by themselves - and only then, will she be able to really address the basic life issues she's facing. And when they don't last, she then feels beset by the weight of the multiple of problems and they are enlarged with the lack of the positive input (at that very moment that is)... and she seeks that caring/positive input again, with all those hopes attached to the search... etc. And it's unimportant to make contact or connect - when she's already getting that positive attention...
As to hair...my hair is better known than I am!
It's my favorite (by genetic luck) feature. Long, wavy, fairly thick, pure white.
(Little kids now and then ask, can I touch it?) Men like it, women like it.
And it also suits my general message to the culture, which is...unprintable.... :lol:
love, and thanks again for the real insight about my D...
Hops
I wouldn't color it again.
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Thanks Hops - about the hair. Mine isn't quite as luxurious and for some reason, it's "technicolor" in the back - much of the original hue is hanging on in that section - so it kinda looks as if I experimented; it didn't go well; and I made no effort to "fix" it. I'm still on the fence, for a lot of reasons; not least is that fussing so much over how I look still seems so danged irrelevant compared to the bigger needs of life.
I wish I could've put the words together faster about the pattern I saw. I hope, for your sake, that I'm wrong too! My mom is still clearly "like that"; I learned it was perfectly normal and the "right way" to be (despite how much it felt wrong to me; it just didn't fit me); and my Ds will occasionally slip into that subtle undertow. I've worked my way out of that mindset - to my immense relief - even tho I still carry the mental habits and scars of the effects; I've worked with my Ds to see that there are alternatives... and learn how to make those changes on their own... but with my mom, it's something deeper... something more than simply a maladaption to life or a habit, strategy of being that could be changed with enough help and desire.
There's a huge difference between adopting an ill-fitting "way of being" to adjust to temporary life circumstances, to survive... and someone who's bio make up & development experiences create a situation that they can't begin to address without outside assistance. I couldn't begin to know where your D falls in that range - but I'm hoping that it's toward the side, where an AHA moment will start opening the doors for her, to better coping skils and real change.
It's pure torture for moms to watch the forever little ones go through this, I know. It's just as bad as the days/nights of a colicky infant who simply can't be rocked to sleep for more than 5 minutes at a time... and not knowing the exact magic mom thing to do, to make it "all better". Just because we're not able to find that "all better" every single time, doesn't make us bad moms; we're trying! It's almost as if the infant won't accept that; won't really HEAR us (maybe can't coz they're crying so hard?)... and open up to the added resources & comfort... and finally rest. So, both mom & infant get worked up into a spiraling tizzy all the way to exhaustion.
To me, that's a feedback loop - and it's not one of my favorite ones. These aren't nearly as strong, powerful, or all-encompassing as they look. It does take time however, to find just the right place to disrupt the process without causing even more distress. And that's only one way to look at it... what I like about this way of looking at it, is that it lowers the emotional intensity a lot... avoids the blame cycle... and points out where things aren't "hopeless".... it almost suggests the places that could interrupt the spiralling out of control repetition. You might be able to be aware of and take advantage of those points; your D probably not so much until you've practiced together, with you leading the way. Maybe.
Here's HOPING!
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One revelatory thing for me, too, is that it really doesn't matter what word salad -- up to and including any letter of the alphabet -- can be applied, or temporarily applied, or permanently applied, to my D --
Feeling her jeopardy crystallizes my love for her, and makes it simpler.
I love her with all my heart. I always will.
But that doesn't preclude the requirement to develop healthier responses, as best I can.
The enabling and codependency and learning all I can about healthy responses parts are my homework...and I have a feeling I'll get better at those with time.
Last few days I've been socializing and enjoying my own life.
Hadn't realized how enormously weary I was, the "just fun" things have been a lift.
Went to see "Parade" -- very heavy musical -- with a gaggle from church last night, enjoyed it.
love,
Hops
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Excellent, Hops!
So glad you found relief and re-creation! I've come to look for those "time-outs" as welcome things; not the "jeez, do I have to"s of years gone by... precisely because they remind me that there is more to life than just one topic! Amazingly, those moments seem to help find solutions to those problems... in undefinable ways, too. I think those of us with a hint of obsessiveness, need to be dragged away from our focus on a problem... to find perspective. (speaking for myself, anyway!) We get so close to the details - all we're seeing is trees and not forest.
One last thought on your D... you know how we own our respective stories? have shifted from living the scripts daily to it being a more thankfully "historical" part of our lives? I think our Ds are still in the first stage of this - they're still living the drama and it's still surprising and threatening and unintelligible much of the time. It is a sigh of relief, all the way down to my toes, when my Ds show signs of moving through this stage - and on to the next... and they're doing it "all by themselves" sans mom's input. It relieves me of the decision to dive right into... what I feel I've just finally crawled out of. (and I would "go back in" in a heartbeat if there was no other choice... sigh.)
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Hey Hops!
have things smoothed out re: your D's situation? It's been a while since the last "update" and I was wondering how she was doing and how you're holding up.
(((((((((((Hops)))))))))))))
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Hops:
Are you OK?
Lighter
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Hi guys, thanks for checking.
Just got back from her place, trying to help her pack and store belongings as eviction was about to start.
She's in terrible shape. Panic attacks, unable to focus, severe mood swings, completely out of money and no work (she was down to using old towels in the litter box when I got there). There was literally NO oil in her car...the mechanic didn't know how she'd continued to drive it without destroying the engine, but we got to the JiffyLube before the last drops, and it's okay. (I had been very worried about that for months, just having a gut sense she was not checking the level, ever...kept reminding and reminding. She's just too far gone to take care of herself.)
Her place is a packrat mess of piles of papers and junk mixed together, and she is completely unable to focus and make decisions. We packed a lot, stored a lot, and she has to leave a lot behind. While I was there her stepmom (for whom she's been caregiving a lot, while she was nearby in hospice) died. D has been through many traumas with her in the last 6 months but it also reunited her with her brothers (one "half" and one "step") whom she hadn't seen in theh 7 years since her father died and they more or less dumped her, so it was desperately important to her. She flung herself into that situation and let her own life completely collapse.
D has to get in the car within a few hours and make a 2-3-day trip with her animals in the car and her mind just about broken. (I don't know if I shared here that a few months ago she told me she has been diagosed bipolar. Now, I understand a lot of behavior I didn't before.) She is horrified by the confrontations with her angry landlord and despite my help and the help of 3 friends who came by several times, she is not coping and will be leaving in utter exhaustion and very poor mental shape.
It's not going well and I don't know how it will end. I am wondering about hospitalization for her but meanwhile, just praying she makes it here in one piece by Saturday, for the funeral. After a week or two here, just to rest, she plans (though "plans" is an optimistic term) to go back to her college town where good friends have offered to let her "couch surf" for a few months). She has some possible house-sitting options during the holidays.
I would say more, offer more step by step plans, methods, interventions, approaches, solutions...but we are winging it. If she can get through this and get out of S. Florida she will at least be near enough to help in an emergency. She is determined to go back there, it's still her dream place. But for now, she needs to get up here or to her college town, which is 3 hours away.
This is the 48-hour period she needs to function enough to drive and survive, so please send her light!
Hops
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::sending d and animals lots of white light/ hope for the drive::
I'm so glad you checked in, Hops.
lighter
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Thank you, Lighter.
Her paralysis and deterioration are frightening and heartbreaking.
(I kept it together until a bait-and-switch at the public storage place, long story, when I behaved in a way I never, literally never, have in my life--exploding in tears, berating a "district manager" and then a "senior district manager" over the phone and sobbing until I was purple. Long story short, I felt forced into the position of telling her she could only keep so much--because the cost was doubling and I can't afford this--and she's already having to give up most of what she owns.)
I really appreciate all the light anyone can send her.
love,
Hops
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Oh Hops. Of COURSE, I'm going to send as much focus energy and physical energy to your D, to be able to arrive safely. And I'm including YOU, too - rest, solace, let tomorrow be soon enough to think energy, too. Poor dears... you've really been through it.
Time later on, to talk, think, etc. Take care of you, so you can take care of her (well, ok... as much as she'll let you) later.
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Hops:
There will be sweet and sour in giving up "things" for your daughter.
Less to weigh her down, worry about and tend.
Sometimes feeling lighter has it's own rewards.
Maybe having the things she cherishes most, uncluttered and close at hand, will make it easier for her to focus?
Not sure, but..... I found a good deal of peace in paring down my own belongings in recent years.
About your losing it at the storage facility...... a bait and switch is alarming on your best day.
On that day, it was another traumatic crisis on top of crisis.
The managers certainly aren't asking for compliments when they offer one thing, then pull the rug out from under customers.
Did transferring your agression help you feel any better?
I certainly hope it did.
(((Hops)))
Lighter
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Dear Hops,
I am so sorry to hear about D.'s condition. It is heartbreaking. Is there Medication for bi-polar?
And she is coming to love with you again? Her deterioration sounds terrible!
Wishing all good things for both of you.
Lovve
Skits.
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Yes...there's Rx. But according to the books we're both reading, it's often a very long slog to get it adjusted for the individual. Some need just SSRIs, some also need mood stablilizers, but it's often a whole lot of trying different combos and doses to get it right. Can take several years to get it working right. The biggest need is a very skilled and consistent treatment plan with MDs (and a therapist) who really understand bipolar, which ain't easy. Much less with no money to pay for it. I've gotten her the info on local resources for mental health support in her college town, including some free support groups, etc., and unfortunately she'll have to make do with whatever health care she can cobble together. Some do have sliding scale. I've encouraged her to tap the church pastoral care folks, go to support groups, do everything she can to put together a whole "village" of support for getting herself stable. Anyone with bipolar really needs a team, to get their lives working again. (And sometimes I comfort myself by reading those ubiquitous lists of very successful or accomplished people who have the same diagnosis...she's not doomed, it's just her own particular challenge to deal with. Tough one, but not impossible. She's smart, and is absorbing info about BP.)
Her lifestyle--drastic risks and moving all the time and unemployment and having no insurance--some of which are results of bipolar itself--are just as big risks to her mental health as not having the proper Rx cocktail yet. She may have ADD too (that's common). She really needs (and has begun to UNDERSTAND she needs, which is really good) a more structured, simpler and stable life. Glam-dreams and fast paced socializing in Miami were feeding the unstable part of her. I'm hoping time in her old college town, which is less fast paced and full of kind folks she's known a lot longer...will help. I hope. Depends how much "walking on the wild side" she's ready to give up for now. According to the books, that's a common BP syndrome.
She's called several times from the road and seems to be coping okay. I'm sure now she'll make it. I think the crash will come after the funeral's over and her brothers are gone their separate ways again. For right now, though, she sounds okay. Big whew, and one day at a time. I borrowed clothes for her from a friend her size for the funeral, she's just hauling laundry...got her new underwear, etc. She'll get through all of that and then, I just don't know. I go back to work Monday and will be pretty consumed with that...high pitched time at my job these days.
The plan is NOT to have her live with me again. Just stay a week or so to rest. She's beyond exhausted. Sounds wicked but I'm relieved that she's leaving her beloved cat with a friend in her college town...because I know that she will be "pulled" to get back to him. And I don't think either of us would cope well with her remaining here...and that understanding is clear between us. I'm trying to sell the house--and after the misery of her previous year here, we both know it's not a good idea except for visits. I don't think "couch surfing" with her friends is going to be particularly good for her condition either, except in one way -- she'll get sick of it, and that should motivate her to find employment so she can afford to move somewhere where she can stay a while. She's decided (healthfully, and I'm glad of it) that she no longer wants to live alone. So she'll be looking for a housemate situation. This will be good because it's cheaper, and also because I don't think she wants to sign a lease right now. As long as she picks a stable and good person to live with--have no idea. Neither does she right now. (Having at the last moment avoided actual eviction, she still has good rental references--but she's finally recognizing that she can't afford to live in her own separate place either financially OR emotionally).
She has ideas of returning to Miami by end of year to move in with 2 girls she knows. Nice enough but I think kind of party animals, and that's not best for her either. But she is in charge of those decisions, not me... I think she realizes (faintly) how unlikely it is that she'll have the money or a job lined up by then. She does know even if she goes back down there that first she'll have to earn enough money for a flight and a UHaul. I can't subsidize it any more (though I'm paying the storage unit and her cell phone). Or, if she winds up getting a job in a whole new location, she'll still have to make the Miami trip to fetch those boxes of books etc. that we stored.
Hi Lighter--being aggressive to the indifferent storage employees didn't really help. As I left one said she was sorry and I said I didn't hold anyone individually at fault. What was sort of good was that as I was crying, my D came to sit by me and I said "sobbed"--I don't like being put in the position of forcing you to leave behind even more (since I couldn't afford the larger unit) because you're already having to give up so much. And I think she could see that was heartfelt love, me grieving for her ordeal, because afterward she put her arms around me and just wanted to hold me for a while.
Thank you, PR and TT -- for the love and prayers and good energy. Maybe you're why she sounds like she's doing well on the road right now!
much love,
Hops
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Well, Hops... we can keep up the light-sending. It sounds like this is going to be a bit a long haul - and I don't mean just the drive from FL. That said, you sure sound good about it - keeping the positives in front of you right alongside the real ????s and unknowns too. You're absolutely right - in the long run - she may very well stabilize and function just fine, learning along the way what works to keep her that way. Like the rest of us "beginners"... she'll make mistakes too and that's when she'll need you to push her toward realizing what she learned and that it's OK she made a mistake, and it's time to try again.
Going to FL, from this mom's point of view... is gonna be a stretch for her, especially if she wants to tackle her BP, get a job, find a place to live, etc. THERE. I think I'd help her keep that wish alive, though... allowing her to keep it, but also keep my fingers crossed (and casually, nonchalantly) point out all the advantages, fun, security, connections of being in the general vicinity of her old friends and yourself. Just so she doesn't discount being there and over-expect some glorious heaven, back in FL.
You're a good mama, you know that? I sure hope your D knows it! ;)
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Thanks PR...you really touched me by calling me a good mother.
I will do my best to influence in honest ways, if asked...but one new thing I've learned is I don't get to "push" or "allow" anything. :P
Just have to stay in charge of my own limits.
My T offered me a great image that's both funny and really helpful -- when I've run various "how do I say this to her?" scenarios past him, he says when I talk to her I should keep the goal simple:
Sound like Mr. Rogers.
Funny but in a way he was exactly right...that's all she can take in from me at this point.
xo
Hops
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OH THAT"S GOOD! "Sound like Mr. Rogers"
I can think of a lot of times, when that would've been good advice for dealing with, trying to help - my kids, too. It would calm me right down - LOL!!!
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If it is really bi-polar, then remember Patty Duke (Astin) and read about her stuggle to healthy living!
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Skits kinda said, something that came to me, too.
It might be a very very very good thing to get an evaluation of whether her BP self-diagnosis is seconded by a professional. We know how much relief can come from a validation and acknowledgement of "us". And also, a general idea of where on the range of severity she is these days. Because down the road, that kind of "yardstick" can help her stay in the healthier range... it'll help her be self-aware and give her the possibility of self-correcting... as long as this isn't too severe or can be easily managed on low-dose Rx's.
From what you've said, it sounds like given some certainty about "what's wrong" and some treatment... she's really eager to dive right into managing, learning to cope, and getting back to having a life of her own. Leads me to believe that she's going to score on the milder end of that yardstick, you know? My fingers are crossed for ya both!
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Hi PR,
How would I go about "getting" her another evaluation?
She has not invited me to take charge of getting her appointments for evaluations, new therapy or followup. I HAVE provided her reams of info, links, contact information for all the mental health services possible in her college town. She has made clear she intends to seek out help, and she's smart, and she does know the types of care she needs. The books really helped paint that picture. I know she has read them.
It really is up to her at this point -- since I'm not in charge -- to seek out a further opinion or second opinion evaluation if she's uncertain about the diagnosis (I don't sense that she is, and it looked "real" to me based on my recent direct observations of the mood swings)...and I could not broach that subject in a very specific way without being viewed as controlling. She has invited my support but not to the degree of "taking charge of" her medical care.
She does know, how much it is needed. The books, the help moving, the emotional support...all of that I can give. But the concrete steps to being seen (particularly given the barriers of no money and no insurance) are going to be up to her to take.
thanks for the thoughts, sincerely...
Hops
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Sorry bout that; my wish to help sometimes runs out naked in the street without a single plan...
... and the words fall out without being edited...
... and :(
... I'll see about having that "head" removed from my butt, now!
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No worries, PR! Head in sunshine!
I just notice (not meaning to blast you) how many people suggest I "do" or "acquire" or "achieve" things re. D that essentially add up to taking charge of her in a way this momma just can't do with a 31 y/o as stubborn as she is strong (and weak). If that makes any sense.
It's been a high-wire act to get her as much help/info as I've done so far, and those were received because she really asked for them. IOW, books, money,lnks to resources where she's going to wind up, in-person support for the move. In terms of actual medical involvement, though, which a new evaluation/2nd-opinion workup would be, that is an adulthood/privacy thing. If she became so far gone that she were needing medical care against her will, I'd take those steps. Short of that, though, she is still a free adult.
I've noticed she's pretty quiet and calm in the last couple days, seems deeply tired but peaceably resting. From the shambles of her old apt. to the calm and relative order here...I hope it helps her. Soon, missing the kitty will overpower the yearning to rest and she'll be off again. For now, though, I'm glad she's sheltered here.
(That may change at any moment if her mood turns!)
Thanks for listening, and for thinking.
I'm off for more Mr. Rogers coaching from T this morning. :)
love,
Hops
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Hi everyone,
Been hard to mention this. This month marks 3 years since my D has spoken to me. Has broken my heart, and I'm still trying to recover, find my own health. I did decide that despite her rejection, I should aim for happiness (or as much as I can).
But I am a changed human being by this loss.
One other thing, apart from your generous hearts and amazing minds, helped: Dr. Joshua Coleman, his book When Parents Hurt and his webinars--I took one series, and corresponded with him some. We even talked about co-authoring a book about this "silent epidemic" but I'm not sure I could bear it. I sent him a poem I wrote and he published it in his newsletter to that community (parents rejected by adult children).
love,
Hops
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Dearest Hops,
I read this whole thread of yours. I gasped at the pain of what you have been going through and it is so difficult and no black and white solutions. One thing I have learned is that being lost in empathy doesn't help. My sister has bipolar disorder complete with psychosis and many of the behaviours that you describe. Right now she is relatively stable as far as I know. I talk to her everyday nearly.
Because she is dead set against medication of any kind i am left holding the bag. She has NO idea the impact of her illness has on either her son or me. She continues to be in denial or to seek out professional help because professionals are all disappointing and inept. She doesn't have a diagnosis either. She believes that friends can help her through the downs and the rages with love. Except the friends have been used and hurt too much and there is no one left. Since she has alienated them she needs to lash out at someone and that has been me. I tried to be sister Theresa and it was not helpful for her or me.
She lives in the kind of jumble jungle you describe your daughter living in. Ankle deep in dust bunnies, newspapers, old flowers etc. She can't initiate a clean up as this is part of her illness.On the other hand she does work from home and mobilizes for that. She is able to be nice to our rich nasty aunt who has helped her financially big time. What I am saying is that she has learned some behaviours such as helplessness. She has learned that it is ok to vent her anger with some people who love her. She believes that she is entitled to her anger. There things are not part of the illness. It is just bad behaviour.
I know about listening on the phone for hours. Listening until the bone marrow is sucked out of your bones. And I HAVE to agree or she will go ballistic. Everything that happens to her is someone else's fault. She has no insight into how difficult, demanding and angry she is. Ok. So I was just fed up with her denial about medication. We are in our sixties and she is still making excuses. i know she loves the highs and does not want to trade them for anything. Anyway I knew she was going delusional and had a crush on a famous composer and was insinuating herself into his life and I thought oh no not again. Imagining internet intrigues and romance. She was reading the riot act to her friends and then emailing them incessantly about how cruel and useless they are for rejecting her. ehe started to do this to me and I said no more. I blocked her. I said I couldn't stand it anymore. Just simple. I can't take it. Go ahead and take care of your illness any way you want but leave me out of it.
I thought she might jump off a bridge or something worse. But I am too tired to care anymore. She is in denial. Until she gets treatment I can't be there for her. For HER sake as well as mine. I am part of the pattern of denial. I think she milks this too. Who wouldn't. Anyone in denial has to have hostages.
I am telling you this because your daughter is torturing you. Torture by not getting medical help. I have read about Manic depression until I am blue in the face. Yes, it can take time to find the perfect dose. However, that sounds fishy to me. I take medication for depression and there is some tweaking. That is different than not taking medication. Having a doctor give out meds is not so great an idea. I wonder if she takes the SSRI s.
It is a lot like loving an alcoholic who keeps drinking. Even if they stop they are still disordered in their thinking and need intensive intervention. No one can make an alcoholic stop drinking and many have gone insane trying. No one can make someone with Bipolar admit they have a problem. All the planning, organization, prioritizing, networking etc that you are doing for her is not making her stronger or helping even though you have to do it to save your own life. Your daughter's illness is killing you faster than it is killing her. I feel like a rat saying this but this is what I have learned.
My mother loved my sister and stood by her through several psychotic episodes: going to stay for weeks to look afer sister's son and trying with everything she has to help. Part of my sister's illness is the belief that my mother was a MONSTER. I have since learned that women who are manic often have this passionate hatred for their mothers. God that hurt my mom. I saw it happen where my mom would try to make it work and one tiny piece was out of place and my sister would go on for HOURS about how evil my mom was. I hope you are not the recipient of this kind of poison. Now I know that NO ONE deserves this. It is not like the PEOPle of the LIE. You know,where some parents are undermining their child to the point of driving them mad or wanting to kill themselves.
If you have a mentally ill child that is what is going on. It is DISORDERED thinking and they can't be un disordered unless they have medication. All else is for naught.
My concern is for you, Hops. This is way too demanding of you and no one can take this much. Something isn't right about this. And that something is denial. \
I think too much of you not to be honest with you. I am so happy that you took some time to take care of yourself.
Lot and lots of light and love to you dear Hops.
Sea storm
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Dearest Hops,
You have shared you experience of being banished by your daughter and said that it was like being rent in two and how unbearably painful it was and still is. Listening to the lengths you go to to understand and deeply care for your daughter, I have rarely heard a more of a more committed and loving parent. It seems such a cruel twist of fate that you have a daughter who is determined to scorn you. Walking over shards of broken glass is not enough to assuage her contempt. This has taken years off your life I am sure.
This is not your fault. You are a very good mother. You can't fix this one unless she wants help. So far she will bite your hand down to the bone if you try to help too much. Maybe you can't do it. Maybe it can't be done. She still thinks she can join her friends in Miami and have a great life. This is really reaching ....... She makes decisions on what is best for her cat. Try to stand back a little while you put more energy into yourself. This is all very amped up, frantic and desperate. She needs professional help. There is just no way around that. If she won't go, you will end up getting sucked down the bunny hole trying to do patch up on a very leaky ship that has left the dock. She has a right to be free. Free to make decisions and have the consequences. You are afraid she will kill herself but something tells me that she is very good at mobilizing the kind of help she wants.
Mr Rogers: " Get help, sometimes we need experts"
Keep writing please. I think you need support for this hell you are going through
Lots of love,
Sea storm
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Sea, thank you so much. You are right on all counts and it's affirming to read.
I must apologize to you, though, for doing something so confusing as reviving this thread from 2011.
So much of the acute crisis that I described earlier in this thread is long over.
The current status is that she now lives in NC, she hasn't spoken to me for three years.
As far as I understand (a few crumbs of info shared by her stepmom, until my D walled her off too)--
she has some medication, and some treatment. As far as we can tell she's living in an old friend's
basement. She is, or has been for a very long time, unemployed, and was on food stamps.
She is obsessed with a violent sport and tweets about being it's "biggest fan" and has gotten
a few hundred people to follow her on Twitter. (It's such a clear and heartbreaking reference
to missing her dead father, who loved wrestling/boxing, etc--but this sport is way worse.) But
that's one place she's getting attention.
In her real day to day life, I think she's managing to just...not drown. But I can't say she's
not taking medication or seeing a counselor. Far as I know, she DOES want help and did
seek it. No way to know how effective or consistent it is--but I can't conclude anything,
since she's been completely no-contact with me for three years.
I'm so sorry for the confusion but I soaked up your support anyway, which is very healing.
My poem was about my grief over her estrangement. I had another big wave of it last
week and it took me a while to recognize the anniversary reaction. It was June, three
years ago, that she last communicated with me.
Love and thanks,
Hops
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That's ok Hops. Seems time isn't linear anyway. Just goes in loops and spirals sometimes.
Heaven only knows why you posted that but it helped me so much. Clarifying my thoughts on what to do when the sun stops shining and the bottom falls out of my sister's world or mine. They are closely linked. Her bottom falls out and down I go. So that needs to stop.
stones stones stone . Oh Hoppy. You are just not a stone. Stones are inanimate and deader than dead. IF that is what you need to be to survive your daughter cutting you off I understand.
A few years ago due to a collision of the planets or some other unforseen event and her wedding that brought together people who had banished each other my daughter banished me. It was like nothing I have ever experienced pain wise. It was like being killed off and there was no inner or outer resource to cope. It was so big. The mother daughter bond is so powerful and I know you know. You would pilot a helicopter to bail her out of trouble, carry a three hundred pound pallet of bricks 500 miles, brazen yourself to any who would harm her. You raised her in difficult circumstances and actually deserved a reward.
That bond is not to be broken. But it has been broken. Sharper than a serpent's tongue.
If you had not included the background your poem would not have been as accessible.
I am busy chipping away at your stone. I will gently break it up. Daily give it nudges and little knocks. I see your stone not as you but as your refuge. This stone is ok for now though. What a good idea.
Stones break up and can be transformed. I hope you can go there. To see the stone evolve and transform into smaller and smaller pieces until it becomes clay that can be put in a crucible and made into a tea cup for sharing tea.
words are just a part of it all and I can't find the right ones. Just know that I know the pain of being rejected by your child. For me it nearly killed me. Literally, after the final blow I ended up in the hospital with pancreatitis and nearly died.
It felt like I had been poisoned.
So kindest hugs and warm wishes for you.
Loads of love,
Sea
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My gosh. Sea, you get it. I didn't know you had this happen too.
I did think I might die of the heartbreak.
I know it aged and hurt and flattened me.
Not only my only child, but she is my only family.
I don't know that she'll ever be back, or be fully well.
There's so much co-morbidity, as the shrinks say.
She has bipolar depression + mild Asperger's + ADD +
massive complicated grief. Starting with her father, all
the way to cats (grandparents, stepparent, a friend, etc.)--
all that death, plus the dissolution of the rest of her family
as my Nbrother attacked me and my Nmother (who did love
my D) betrayed me in her will...all of it. It was too much for
her psyche and she became someone very very dark and
rageful.
Until she forgives: herself, life itself, her father...and hopefully
one day me...I don't know how she can be whole.
It's all I hope for, that she'll find her own wholeness one day.
Years ago, she was funny, quirky, and though emotionally a
bit stiff, had very kind impulses (always befriended the "loner"
or "ugly" kids--had a huge heart for the underdog).
I love her still. I hold those memories close. I LOVED raising
her (well, engulfing her, since we were too enmeshed and
that's the model I had) ... and her core distinct nature.
It's just that adulthood was too much for her. She began
lying, posing, pretending, spinning...until she spun all the
way out of control. She is a very long way from being able to
be authentic, just herself, and not keep grandstanding on the
internet (punctuated with heartrending pleas for help--and
money--from strangers). But she rejected my last text and letter
in which I offered to pay (a big sum) for her urgent dental work.
I offer love and help and support AND respect for her space
and boundaries. But she's built a fiction, and at one point, was
almost suggesting that both her parents were dead.
For now, I'm dead to her. And you're right, it pulled the plug
out of my sense of myself, the meaning of life. I couldn't and
can't understand how the person I loved and cared about most
in this life...could wind up hating me. But I think she really hates
herself worse than anything, and projected it all my way.
I was the surviving one. Nobody else left to take it out on.
Thank you, Sea--for sharing the pain you felt about your own
daughter. I can't tell you how priceless it is to hear from someone
who knows what that particular agony feels like.
Gratefully,
Hops
PS--Are you still banished from her life? I hesitate to pry.
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I'm so sorry, Hops.
I didn't realize it's been three years.
I'm so sorry.
Lighter
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Hi Hops,
You are right. What you have experienced is unbearable. I don't bear it either. I have to put the pain somewhere else so it doesn't consume me or kill me. I continue to try to order it and make sense of it. I can't understand how I could have gone so wrong or been so bad. Finally, I realize that I wasn't so bad. I played a role in a family where relentless gears were way more powerful than me and I bow to the overwhelming unfairness of it. And I know the story isn't over.
Its been seven years. The first three years of banishment came at a very bad time when I was breaking up with narcissistic husband and I blamed myself for that too. LIke you my daughter is my only family besides my sister. We had been really close I thought. A very big wedding revealed a lot of dynamics that I had been unaware of. I was not allowed to speak at the wedding.
It is seven years later and gradually my daughter sees things differently. I learned in therapy that my daughter is trauma bonded with rich alcoholic father and step mother. The only thing I could have done was to go underground and disappear with her. At the time I was told that a child needs her father and that I should honour this. Also I had no money or education.
I just kept loving her and calling and keeping the calls simple and non triggering. This was not possible at first but got better. She did like to hear from me a little at first. Now she is a mother too and that changed things. She has seen me with her child and knows the kind of mom I am. Her little girl loves me and I love her too.
She had severe post partum depression after the birth of her child and went back to hating me. I don't seem to have power over her feelings that is for sure. I wonder if she will plunge down again after the birth of her second child. She does too and is a little scared. Having that sword of damocles hanging over your head isn't good. She can get very depressed and has been bulimic.
I keep watch from a distance and will help if asked.
I hope this helps you, Hops. You were a good mom but sometimes that is not enough and it is out of your control. I sure know it is not in my control either. Peace be with you.
Love,
SEa
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Hi Hops,
I'd never read this thread before. Although I knew some of the things between you and your daughter, I think I joined the forum some time after it had all come to a head so I'd not read all of this. It was heartbreaking to read. I know how much you love and miss her, and equally know how the various conditions and illnesses you mention - Bi-Polar, ADD Asperger's - along with unresolved grief and so on - can make life, not only much more difficult for people to manage, but also mean they often see and/or experience the world in a different way. The brain is wired differently, I think, so people see and respond in ways that, for others with different 'wiring', appear hard to fathom out.
The things you wrote about reminded me so much of a Carer's forum that I use, particularly the sections for people who care for those with mental health problems and other neurological conditions. It is so much of a rock and a hard place situation - care and/or medication can't be forced unless there's a significant risk of harm and so people are forced to watch the people they love self-destruct. It's a soul destroying experience, as you know. I wish very much I had some words of wisdom or a magic wand to make it all better but sadly I don't. All I can say is that you are truly loved and cherished here (and I'm sure in other places as well) and I will think of your D as I look at the stars tonight and hope that something in her life clicks into place to help get her to a better place, and will be thinking fondly of you, too. I truly wish I could do more, though.
Love,
Tupp
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Lighter-- thanks to you, too.
Those simple words, you got it. Thank you.
Tupp, I can't imagine anything better than
you sending her love and light. Thank you.
Sea, I am so so glad you are in her life again
and able to love your grandchild...one day
maybe (I doubt my D will have kids) my
D will allow me back in, a little. A little
would be plenty--I have no more dreams
of anything cozy or regular.
Thank you ALL for the comfort. It's real,
and it sank in...and I just bought flowers
to plant!
I'll put this thread back to rest until I need
it again.
love
Hops
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This is very weird, ADD-ish, as well as embarrassing.
I looked back through old email, and it turns out that my D stopped communication with me in February of 2012,
not June of 2011. How senile can I get....(don't want to know).
I don't quite understand why I fixated on June.
My bday is late April, then there's Mother's Day...
just doesn't make sense.
I have always been just terrible with dates (my brain just sees them as more math)
but this is a strange thing. Doesn't mean anything one way or another with regard
to the estrangement, but the whole depression I was positive was an "anniversary
reaction" must instead have been my atypical SAD (there's a variant that hits people
in spring, for me though usually around the start of June)...
What an idiot.
xo
Hops
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Oh dear, Hops.
Not senile, just.......
like you said......
more like math for the creative types, IMO.
I'm guessing something, important or traumatic, happened in June of 2011, connections in the brain are funny.
I know nothing about the SAD variant, but I'm curious how you're doing.
What's helping, what you're learning about it.
Lighter
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I agree with Lighter Hops. The brain is powerful that way. You might find it will come to you if you sit quietly holding June 2011 in your mind. But then you might just let it go.
-
thanks, Lighter. And GS, I figured I don't really care about the ghost anniversary of whatever...
more I remind myself, more I read...the subvariant of SAD that kicks in late spring/early summer--
I think it was just that. Arriving.
Still has its teeth in me some right now, but as with so many things, naming it (again)--reminding
myself this is a short-term seasonal struggle and if the pattern holds, by mid-summer I'll be
feeling much better...keeps the "xiety" part of the "depziety" at bay.
AND I NEED TO REMEMBER TO LITERALLY ADD IT TO MY ANNUAL CALENDAR SO I
CAN MAN (WOMAN) THE BATTLEMENTS IN ADVANCE NEXT YEAR.
Lighter, it's the same treatment as for the usual winter SAD, oddly. More light. Earlier in the
day, and more exercise likewise. (I quit the walks for a week after a mild falling-out with
my walkmate. Then began BINGEING on carbohydrates, absurdly. Bleaaahhh. Both classic
symptoms.) Took to my bed to binge-watch TV, during some incredibly gorgeous weather.
Fish oil also. I've upped that. And if all those are tried and fail, then SSRIs. But I've been
off those for years now and prefer to manage it otherwise. I've stepped up a bit of social
connecting too. That's key...since isolation feeds it.
Knowing it's a "normal" way to go through this thing, though, is calming. So instead of
hating myself, I'm trying to do self-compassion and be patient. My dog still loves me.
Anyway, I'm getting a grip again, one finger at a time. Thanks for the interest.
love
Hops
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Well, Hops....
manning the battlements proactively is such a great idea.
I hope you patch things up with your walking mate, provided that relationship lifts you up.
Last I read an update for you on SAD, the lights were something you didn't feel safe about.
Does regular sunshine give the same benefits, or better?
Lighter
-
Yup, walkmate and I patched up.
SAD lights make sense but I'm still wary because of not wanting cataracts, and the research on them is still short term. Regular sunshine definitely helps, particularly right after dawn, but it's not as potent.
Today I worked at home, which I interpret very loosely, so had a lovely 2 hours with pooch at a cafe downtown, and was way more productive on my laptop than I am in the office. (There, noise, phones, office cross talk and deliveries break my stride over and over...typical of the ADD brain.)
I have permission to do that 2xmonth and must schedule it regularly. I'm going to pitch to have one "WAH" day/week next year.
Hops
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[editing in an afterthought: I know this is sounding like such a huge and probably
stupid drama. But the little question I wind up with--the cell phone payment--just
keeps bothering me. Both because of the hurt of it being taken for granted while
she continues to be hostile--and because I'm genuinely torn because of also wishing
to keep on silently helping her, and yet because others point out it's a form of
enabling her to continue to be in partial denial about the seriousness of her
circumstances and how she needs to get some sort of ANY humble job in order
to take care of herself and stop conning and manipulating others to do it for her...
and because she's genuinely ill and therefore maybe I should subsidize her (small
as it is) even when she's cold and abusive...because she's ill. It's the mix of legitimate
handicap from illness PLUS my slow acceptance that she's also very manipulative and, in
a word--mean--that leave me in a state of deep confusion about what to do. She's 33.
I really, really will appreciate ADVICE and others' thoughts, truly. Don't know
which will fit or which I'd follow but if you are able to think it through a bit with me
I'd be extremely grateful. And do not worry if you have nothing to say or your thoughts
are brief...I have taken a very overlong and rambling narrative to ask what might be a
fairly simple question. It just seems complex to me. THANKS in advance...love-Hops]
Well, hell. Just want to sum up another moment of...something...about my D.
Her stepmom has been emailing with me and sharing brief bits of info about her
now and then (my D got hostile and nasty with her too, so she got tired of obeying
my D's "you may not speak to my mother either" rule and decided to share). I
am beyond grateful for that, as she's the only other person who knows D personally.
And she blew me away by writing that she "loves me like a sister" and is absolutely
NOT okay with how D has treated me. That has been a huge comfort. Though I
told her I urgently hope my D does stay in touch with her...long as stepmom
can handle it.
Anyway, her latest communication was that she thinks my D is worse, devolving,
can't even finish a thought on the phone before bounding to another etc. Very
bad ADD (not to mention the bipolar). And though I'd thought D was getting
SOME regular care, the "free samples meds" she was getting from a doctor
keep running out and she can't afford any. So that means she is NOT under
adequate care, which obviously makes everything worse.
Living wise, her situation is that she's living rent free in the basement of a kind
friend from college, a 400-pound computer guy, who likes her although there's
been conflict about her eating up his food. Sounds to me as though she's been
largely living off him. This month she's had a housesitting/babysitting job
which stepmom said my D was upbeat about. Or at least sounded that way
on FB. Stepmom also mentioned that a year ago my D had posted something
like, "I can't understand how people go through all the steps to getting a job
interview and getting a job, etc.". She is still unemployed. Has talked her
half-brother into paying half the Miami storage unit (their father's things
are part of what she stored) so stepmom said, "I guess she doesn't have
to earn more than $25 a month so I don't think she's very motivated." My
D has had (and may still have) food stamps.
Anyhow, that description of their phone call (4 months ago) with D clearly
not tracking, not being sound, wrung my heart. So I decided (foolishly) to
write her one more letter of amends (as Dr. Coleman recommends, as he
says it often takes more than one attempt). Although I know she doesn't
want to hear from me. In the past two years, I've texted her briefly 4-6
times, mailed 2 bday cards w/$100 bills in them. And mailed her two big
letters of heartfelt apology, amends, love and more love. All loathed and
rejected, so I shoulda known...
I texted her Thursday just, "Please read my email [letter] of this morning if you
are willing. Love, Mom". (She blocked my email years ago so I don't try,
but since she doesn't want anything mailed to her housemate's address,
I have no other way to mail to her. Her bills etc go to her stepmom's
address but she only gets that mail once or twice a year. Pays no bills.)
Got a text back that was EXACTLY the same tone she had two years ago.
And this time she was more specific than ever. "Do not contact me in any
way shape or form." (In my email-letter I'd said I'd continue to send bday
cards and a letter once or twice a year and text her when I was coming
through her town again unless she asked me not to). So she DID ask me
not to and couldn't have been more clear. I have no more rationalizations
for how I might wiggle around her total control of the absolute NC.
She did real the letter, which surprised me, because she referenced it:
"You are not 5 years old and can do whatever you want unless someone
tells you to stop." She also said I was selfish and invasive (last time I
texted her was to offer her no-strings $9,000 for her desperately needed
dental work, for which she was begging funds from strangers online).
I understand. At the same time, her stepmom has given me to think
that my D literally may be "living" on about $50/month. AND--like many
other late-bloomers, she's living in the after-rubble of a truly terrible
economy and jobs even for the perky and prepared aren't easy to get.
She wants to substitute teach and stepmom says she's trying to study
for that test. It is a TOUGH world for the young right now. Way rougher
than it was for me. So...finally I'm getting to my point.
I am absolutely clear without any further gray area or rationalization
that there are no exceptions to her rule, and that she means TOTAL NC.
And I intend to obey her. She texted "And don't answer this because
every time you do it adds more time before I will be willing to speak to
you." It's the tone I remember. Punitive, scathing, and all controlling.
(Even though I really DO understand NC and invasiveness and boundaries.
It's easy to in principle, but has been hard for me to go totally silent. I've
got it now, though. I'm not confused about bday cards or anything going
forward. She didn't leave any gray area, for the first time, this time. I
had thought since she'd a couple of times texted back...albeit with
name calling or more "orders" -- that she kind of saw texting as a
small crack of a door I might occasionally be okay to use. But now I
get it.)
The thing is, this time, though it was no different than hundreds of times
before when she's called me names and been hostile and contemptuous,
...I just thought, "I don't want to do this any more." I accept that shut door.
And the dilemma I have--this sounds so small and stupid--is that I want
to make a decision about whether I should continue to pay her cell phone.
She never mentions or acknowledges that I have been paying $80 a month
to keep her plan for about 3 years. She just takes it, uses it, and calls me
selfish. And I'm kind of wondering--am I feeding her delusion?
There are real Pros and Cons for each decision (to continue, and to stop).
So I would very much welcome your advice and thoughts. Small as it is,
it's the only issue left that I have to wrestle with. I have set up a trust
and my affairs are in order so she'll benefit safely (managed by the law
firm) after I'm gone. And I'm getting on with my life.
But there's this hangover piece. It hurts (I feel a little heartbreak every
month when I stand at the payment kiosk feeding in money for a phone
she'll never give me a call on). But it's also a lifeline for her.
And I'm thinking of cutting it off. My SW friend that in a way, paying it
in silence is feeding her delusion, because "The world doesn't work that
way. You don't get to be hostile and contemptuous of someone who is
helping you, without consequences. And you absorbing her contempt
long-term, helps her continue to pretend that she's not taking from you."
On the other hand. My D is mentally ill. And also showing bad character.
And has been abusive to me out of both illness and...bad character. So
I am torn about what to do.
I did notice that for the very first time, after this round of having-face-
spat-in, I felt okay (at least partly) about the idea of just not paying the
bill. Just stopping. I felt...liberated.
But I know part of that is also because of my hurt--a petty way to express
the hurt and anger. (My friend said the reality check of her discovering that
her phone wasn't paid would be good for her. But I see it as a shock. And
my hurt and anger are just emotions...and ... if the phone is a key survival tool ...
should I allow myself to express those emotions? Or just suck it up again?
And--I am trying to save for retirement and also to enjoy my present life.
It's not a huge amount of money and I would be fine, continuing. And maybe
it's a weird, unacknowledged that will one day say to her, my Mom cares
about me and has kept my phone on all this time...so maybe, it's time to call.
Do you see clear Pros and Cons to this dilemma of continuing to pay her
cell phone? It's not financially hurting me. But it does emotionally hurt, as
though I'm participating in my own devaluing. By allowing it to go on.
Thank you. Sorry it took SO long to get it all out. But the question just won't
go away.
love to all,
Hops
PS--Just to be sure I'm very clear about this: There is no medical/commitment/
legal/intervention staging kind of thing I can do. She has her meltdowns but
continues to function and scramble and somehow get by day to day--hence
the July job she's had. And she is an adult who is not in my control. So I'm
not looking for how-to-intercede-in-her-health-care advice, can't do that. Thanks.
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I see pros and cons. I see dilemma all the way around. That difficult but important thing is to do your best to not make a decision based on generating a specific outcome. In other words, try to see if each choice has a hope of "if I do this then maybe she will...." Our secret desires often hide below radar.
Which ever choice you make Hops, you can't go wrong ------ AND you can't win.
Do you incapacitate her by paying her phone? Will you feel better if you do pay for it? If you don't? Are you rewarding her contempt by providing this service? Should you do this relatively small favor out of love? The questions could stretch out endlessly and the answers continue eluding the asker.
In the end, does providing her this service give you comfort or pleasure regardless of her contemptible response? Do you do it out of hope that one day, some how she will turn around? Which choice eases your heart, even a modicum? Take that one Hops, the one that gives you some tiny sense of comfort.
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Dear Hops,
I know you and I aren't on the best of terms, but thought I'd take a chance & respond.
I have someone like your D in my life. I believe the behavior you describe is Adult Oppositional Defiant Disorder (and that may be in addition to your D's other conditions). I know how exasperating such people are. It feels like no matter what you do, it's never the right choice. I know how hurtful they can be.
Please keep in mind that she is an adult and you cannot sway her regarding treating her mental health or her life style choices. So, it's best to give it over to a higher power and pray/hope for the best.
Regarding the phone, maybe go for a quiet walk or sit quietly and think how you want to handle this. If the $80 is too expensive, can you find a less expensive plan? However, if D is on assistance she may qualify for a free phone, but she could change her phone number & not give you the new one. Maybe think about what you could tolerate regarding paying or not paying for her phone. Maybe speak to your D's stepmother and get her opinion.
I have found that dealing with someone like this is really more about what I can tolerate and accept as opposed to trying to "fix" them. We can't fix them and we need to accept that, so the question becomes how to move forward without driving ourselves crazy over them.
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Hi Hops,
Well firstly I'm glad your D's step-mum has made this contact and told you that she is in your corner - I know having someone else say they think the same as you is huge in situations like this so I'm really glad she's done that.
Personally, I don't think someone who is 'NC' should be receiving cash or cash substitutes from the person they no longer wish to have contact with. Even without being NC, I don't think parents should support their adult children; there's something about it that I feel stops the person receiving the money from being a proper grown-up. To me, being an adult is about managing your finances yourself, and not expecting other people to pay for things for you. A bit old fashioned, I know, but my feeling is, if you can't pay then you do without.
Your D sounds like she is getting an awful lot of help from a lot of people - living rent free, eating someone else's food, having someone else pay her phone bill, someone paying half the rental on the storage unit. That's a lot of other people's money she's raking in. I cannot begin to imagine how much the situation you are in with her must hurt you and I can completely understand your worries about her health and how tough it would be for you to cut off that one last line of communication. I guess it would signify that you are accepting she is no longer in your life and I can't imagine how terribly sad and painful that would be.
But.............it really pains me to read about her punishing you in this way, over and over again. I know we don't know each other in 'real' life but honestly, you are such an open, honest and giving person that you don't deserve to be treated this way. I know your D is unwell and I'm sure it does play a part in the way she behaves. But equally I think in situations like this people do tend to do as much as they can get away with. Your D sounds as if she has other people paying for everything she needs and she doesn't have to do anything in return - it's not even conditional on working, or getting regular medical care, or even being polite. I think most of the people on this forum have experienced mental health problems of some form or another, and they're no excuse for rudeness. If someone gives you something you either say thank you or decline the offer, in my opinion.
So - easy for me to say, I know - I would stop paying for the phone. Perhaps you could donate some of the money to a mental health charity instead, so that you'd still be helping 'someone', it would just be someone who appreciates it. I can't tell you how sorry I am that you are in this situation again, the pain must be unbearable and these contacts must be like ripping the wound open all over again. But, ill or not, I think your D needs to enter the real world now and start paying for things herself, or doing without them. And I think you deserve to be giving your money to someone who appreciates it - whether that's topping up your retirement fund, giving some to charity or even buying that pooch of yours a great big bone and a fancy dog collar - you work hard for it and you work so hard on yourself, you deserve to know that your kind actions are being appreciated and enjoyed.
Love Tupp xxx
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Hi (((Hops)))
First, I'm so sorry this hurts so much.
It frightens me for you, and your D......
there are no good decisions, I'm afraid. Only less terrible ones, but on the bright side, any new decisions you make could lead to something positive for your d, as well as negative.
The pro's of getting rid of the phone are.....
1. You'd be respecting, completely, your d's very clear stated boundary. All the sudden, POOF!...... for the first time, she'd get exactly what she asked from you. Maybe she'd think to herself..... "Wow, that wasn't exactly what I expected to happen. I guess maybe I pushed it a bit too far, and maybe I want my phone back on so I'll call her, and see if she'll do that for me."
2. She might not have any other way to get on the internet, and she may decide that being poor AND cut off from her data services sucks so bad..... she asks you for help again, which of course you'd have the choice to engage in, and surround with boundaries of your own. She might get so ticked off, that anger moves her into positive action, and she ends up improving her situation, which isn't all bad either.
3. She might end up on her roomie's phone all the time, make more trouble for herself, and get evicted, leading to her breaking down, admitting she needs help, and asking someone for it, even if it's not you.
4. She might use her roomies's phone, and complain about you so much her roomie sits her down, explains that it's not working, and that she's bitten the hand that feeds her, yours, and that she's overstepping his boundaries, and she'll have to go, or find solutions. Solutions require getting a phone elsewhere, or money to provide one for herself. He isn't her mother, and he's not obligated to provide food, housing AND data services for her when it impacts his life negatively, esp if she's her character flaws make it hard for her to show gratitude, and be humble under his roof. At some point, cold hard reality might be necessary for d to see she can't get herself out of this uncomfortable place without help from someone, or some agency. Maybe that's what it will take to get her to admit she can't go on this way.
The unintended consequences, or negative consequences might be that d spirals completely out of control, and harms herself, or ends up in a situation where she's harmed.
That's the big concern, isn't it? That's the unbearable unintended consequence, and since she's ill it's just too hard to qualify the true weight of that decision without input from someone in contact with her IRL. I wonder if sm speaks to the roomate? What does the roomate feel would help?
If the phone really is a life line, and something that keeps her in touch with the world, and functioning, and applying for jobs, then it would feel too terrible to take it away, even if it's just respecting the boundary she herself put in place, right? I wish you could call her on the phone, and say
Hey, as painful as it is, I finally accept your NC boundary, and I'm going to honor it, starting at the end of next month with the phone service, unless sooner would be better. If you want me to shut it down today, or next week I can do that too, you just need to let me know, and I'll honor it. With that, I accept that any contact will start with you, not me, in the future. I love you, Goodbye. ::click::
What happens if she has a completely break down? What are the services in her area? She'd likely end up in the emergency room, under observation, on an involuntary status. The roomate might be the one to make that call. In our State, attorneys volunteer to represent those folks, and help determine what the next move is when their hearing comes up in 10 or so days to determine whether they're released or stay longer. Maybe 14 days, not sure, but there are caring professionals at the next stage working with them to get them services, housing, and care...... crisis management services in other words. Not sure about Florida, but it would comfort me to know what the likely outcome of a breakdown would be, and to feel it might be the best chance for someone I love for growth, medical care, and services that would impact her life positively.
You know there's always another hand with me, so......
here d is, working toward gaining employment. Would taking the phone derail that completely? IS she working towards improving her life? Is she just getting worse, with no real hope for getting better? I'd be more likely to cut off the phone if I thought it would lead to things getting better, eventually, even if they get worse first.
Either way, cutting off the phone would change something, and with addicts letting them hit rock bottom is often the kindest things we can do for them, bc that's when they can't deny or minimize any longer. That's when they have to make the hard decisions, right?
I know your d isn't an addict, but she's in denial, and struggling with disordered thinking, and what does sound like ODD, and ADHD, on top of the bi polar. Wow, that is scary to read, Hops.
Just doing nothing, and keeping the status quo seems to be the less threatening way to go, IMO.
But, if I'm looking down on the situation as if it's my own, and thinking about getting someone to the next difficult phase, that requires SOME CATALYST, unfortunately a negative one to get someone's attention, or some agency's attention, then I'm going to really consider withdrawing any enabling behaviors, out of love. This is what your friend is telling you, and I completely GET that, but.....
Since your child is ill, it's not so easy a call.
That brings me to staying in touch with the sm, as suggested in earlier posts.
My first thought was to send her the 80.00 a month, and tell her she's welcome to get another phone service set up, if she thinks it's the best idea, and would lead to a job, and maybe getting job training, but if there isn't going to be a better job, or training... maybe not.
And IS keeping the phone service another thing you do that ticks your d off? She asked you to STOP, and yet there you are, providing that darned phone, and she's too weak to cut it off herself, and so she's conflicted, and angry and it doesn't help anything if she's getting worse, not better, through the unwanted, and unasked for gesture, right?
Secretly, I believe the best possible outcome would be if your dd realizes she's miserable, broke, hungry, and SO uncomfortable, she HAS to make a change, and goes about doing that in what will likely be messy, scary, uneven, two steps forward, a stagger back, but maybe that's the best chance she has at seeing what adult responsiblity really and truly is. How out of her depths she is, and how much help she needs to truly get on track, and in a place of comfort, and independence. She seems to want to be those things, but she hasn't actually taken stock of the actual moving parts involved.....
adequate health care;
training for employment;
taking responsibility, and resisting blaming others;
receiving continued health care that makes it possible to get, and keep a job.
She says she wants those things, but she;s not really doing what she needs to do in order to achieve those things.
You want them for her desperately.
She seems to be spending a lot of time on line, distracting herself, keeping herself from focusing on the hard decisions, IMO. IS the phone service you provide her link to the internet? Does she have a computer, in her basement, on wifi? What would the impact of losing her phone service truly be?
She said to stop contacting her, but she didn't say she wanted you to cut off the phone service if I remember correctly. It just slips by, without comment. IMO, her latest request includes cutting off the phone, and that's just respecting a boundary she put in place, but since she's harmed you, and continues to harm you, I don't know if a small part of that is me wanting her to feel a little discomfort.... a little unintended consequence of her actions, kwim? She may not have intended for you to treat her like an adult, after this last contact, but that's exactly what she asked you to do. Respect her by completely withdrawing all contact, help, and expectation. Well, would it help for her to live with the consequences of her request? Completely? For once?
You don't want to cut off that phone, in case it's the final straw that breaks her sanity, but I think it's not likely that her sanity hinges on that one one thing. It's a combination of things, and IMO she;s as likely to find positive change as she is negative if you cancel phone service.
If I thought it was the one thing keeping her alive, I'd certainly not cancel it, Hops. No one can know. You can ask the roomate, perhaps, and the sm, but you can't actually know, and that makes a decision difficult.
I wonder if you could filter services, and help through the sm in any way?
If you could make a request..... help d, in any way you think best, here's X amount of dollars, don't tell me about your plans, but use it if you think it will get her help/training/mental health care/dental work, etc,. and move her into a better space if it's possible.
That's a lot of rambling, but I hope it helps, (((((Hops))))).
Lighter
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Thank you so so very much, GS, Tupp, Ann, and Lighter.
Boy, do I feel HEARD.
It just helps so much the way you really do see all the sides. In different ways, but so acutely well.
It's like I've been wandering around holding a pretzel, and asking people to help me figure out which is the top side.
There IS no top side; it's a pretzel.
Whew.
As to all those pragmatic questions, Lighter...I can't manage anything through the stepmom (they are not in contact often enough and the stepmom isn't managing her either...and will not try advising or suggesting things, as she gets her head bitten off when she does). I've never met nor been introduced to the housemate (don't know whether stepmom ever has met him either). Don't think the stepmom talks to him about her. I can't (and wouldn't) have concrete chats about plans/ideas/moves for my D with either of them. I'm really not going to try to fix (or ruin) her life situation. I am completely NOT in charge, even remotely. And much as I wish there were a proxy there who could parent her (she lives in NC, though her storage is in FL), there isn't.
I am very VERY grateful for all of these thoughts. They help. Because you've all added a bounty-load of points both Pro and Con. I will write them up before my T appointment, and ask him to help me process the list, to see if I get tipped in one direction.
I hope so. I'd like it to go away (not the payment, but the hurt I feel about it--and the fear it's damaging her if I keep paying it or if I stop).
love
Hops
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Hops:
What I know about involuntary observation, from a NC attorney, and crisis intervention worker in NC, is very positive. At least in the area I'm familiar with.
Lighter
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I've been in (grateful) tears about this entire thread this morning for a bit.
If y'all had ANY IDEA how life-and-sanity-saving your help was, especially in that pivotal disastrous year of 2014....this thread has got it all.
This was triggered by an unexpected email from D's (2nd) stepmom today, explaining that D's *half-brother had visited D. She's about the same but back living in the basement of the 400-pound computer-geek friend with whom she'd lived for some time until he got pissed about her eating his food and tossed her out. I have no idea about anything since so do not know where/how she's lived in the interim. This update suggests D's desperation but that's been chronic. As ever, I have ZERO way of answering new questions about her situation and am not going to try to find out. I explained to kind SM that I don't want to be given the address indirectly because any contact between D and me has to be initiated by D, but I'm very glad someone knows it.
(*Half-brother's mother, D's father's wife after me, died in hospice near D when she was in Miami--and this half-brother is close to D's father's widow, the 3rd-wife and stepmom I'm referring to now who had no kids--v. convuluted I know! She adored him and they remained close after his mother's death. D adored him too; he's a lot like his dad.)
Anyway, it wasn't new-news except to learn that he visited her, for which I'm very grateful. What that means is if I'm terminally ill (or suddenly gone) one day, there's some contact who could contact her. She'd need to know eventually.
Her Addison's disease is worse and she's down to one half of one adrenal gland, and dependent for life on steroids, which have caused her to gain 70 pounds. I can imagine how miserable she is. No knowledge of the current state of her bipolar, employment, health insurance, any government benefits other than food stamps, other health, etc. But I know to be back in his basement wouldn't be a step forward or up for her. I can imagine her despair and self loathing. It does make me v. sad.
So that triggered me to review all this (again). I'm okay. It still is what it still is. I even found I'd written in this thread the exact wording of her final message to me in February of 2012. That's when I accepted her final NC boundary.
Whew, whew. Still glad stepmom sent me the update. It was caring.
As to YOUR caring, alla y'all? Indescribable. I am still so profoundly grateful.
hugs
Hops
PS One thing I noticed in this thread, or maybe it was another one, is that folks thought for a while that her bipolar was self-diagnosed. It wasn't. She was seeing a psychologist and a psychiatrist at 19 and one (or both) of them diagnosed her. It has always been real. I just didn't learn about it until she told me (and I witnessed it) much later.
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Dear Hops,
I am so sorry to hear about your daughter's illness/unmanageability and your fears/anxieties in coping with it. I can only imagine what you are going through. I don't think throwing money at her situation is going to help you or her at this point. You have received many helpful suggestions and support. The only other thing I can think of is a referral to the county agency's adult protective services to do a welfare check/offer services.
Phyll
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Thanks, Phyl.
My daughter is completely estranged, thus accepts no help or advice from me. As much as it broke me, after a lot of therapy and years of anguish vented here, a few years back I released her to her own consequences. What you missed is that she hasn't spoken to me once in 10 years and will not unless she changes her mind. I don't hope for it any more because I finally recognized that hoping was self-torture. She's 41, and though it's debatable, competent to make her own decisions. I have no power to compel anything that would change her situation. The only crumbs of info I hear every now and then, and rarely, are second or third hand. Yesterday's news was so incomplete it just fed my old fear. And then I just...stopped.
I have basically released her to the universe and accept that she is no longer in my life. As anyone here could tell you, that took years of agony and screaming anguish. But I did get there. To start a new campaign of trying to reach or rescue her would be near-suicide for me and backfire in every way imaginable. I still might get the worst news a parent could hear one day. I have accepted that it's possible.
Nothing I heard just now through her stepmom tells me APS would deem her living in a basement space an emergency, but it was very minimal info. My sense is of the grinding misery of her chronic mental and physical illnesses plus pain issues plus poverty. I personally think that's a terrible emergency but this country lets many people languish this way. The only brighter spot is that she has shelter with someone she knows, who used to and perhaps still does like her some. I also recall that his parents liked my D -- stepmom told me that too, years back. D is (or was) very charming and they were grateful to have someone living with their son, who has his own serious issues. (I only know he's morbidly obese and I think he never goes out. He likely has other health problems, I'd think.) I have to hope that if she were failing completely to manage, somebody there would alert somebody. I can't be certain but it sounds as though he's her only security now.
I'll be seeing the stepmom Monday and will think about asking her to ask D's half-bro whether he thinks it's an emergency situation right now. IOW, if D is functional or did he view grave deterioration. Or perhaps ask her to convey that if he ever feels D is in a true emergency, he should let me know. So far, though he's aware of D's circumstances, he's never reached out though I'm sure he knows I'd be glad to hear from him. There's a chance he'd tell D that I had conveyed that message to him via stepmom, and I know what D'd think of my "interference" -- it'd lock the iron door between us even tighter. I think he's obeying D's dictates or may be indifferent. He's never shown caring for her that I've seen, so I was surprised he saw her as he never has visited before to my knowledge. She may have asked him for help; he may think about her with more compassion now that he's older, he may have been just passing through the area. No idea.
My situation with her is full-release. I will always love her but you can't help a free adult who rejects it. If I sicced APS on her she'd hate me more (I did prompt a welfare check once after a bank called to tell me her cell phone was found on the ground by the ATM -- she'd been on the phone with me -- normal talk -- and the conversation suddenly cut. When I got the bank's call an hour later I feared she might've been robbed or worse, so called her local police to check. She was enraged with me for that, because she felt humilated when they showed up along with a woman I knew from the local church (I'd asked her to since police said they'd check but not at emergency speed). But she hadn't been mentally organized enough to figure that after vanishing mid-sentence she should've called me on another phone just to say "I'm okay." Or resented the idea she should.
Anyway, I won't/can't re-enter the whole drama now. It just re-emerged yesterday because of the stepmother's unexpected email. I almost felt like asking her NOT to bring me skimpy-scary news of my D, because it makes me start worrying and grieving all over again. But I also don't want to cut off my only potential source of emergency info, should something worse happen. I fear such a call may come.
Sorry I can't catch you up completely. It's been a long slog and this board held my chin above the water more times than I can count. I ultimately made the terrible decision to stop trying. It was terrible but necessary, I believe. I have done a massive amount of healing. I'd give anything if she could. As of now, all I can do is do everything possible to avoid giving up my house, which is in trust for her.
I'll be glad to see stepmom, we're not in touch often, but appreciated her reaching out. But the truth is I don't want to talk much about my D with her. She knows there's nothing really new there, was just letting me know about the brother's visit and that D's back living in her friend's house (I don't know the address but it's good that her brother does). I'm no longer trying to wedge my way into her life. If she ever wants to do counseling with the goal of an adult reconciliation with me I would leap at the chance, drive any distance, pay for it all, etc. I've begged her for that before and was refused. So now, to use a horrible phrase: it is what it is.
Everything Sea wrote was so profoundly perceptive that in many ways her description of where I was is much clearer than my own. (Sea if you're out there, those two posts of yours put a spark to my healing. I never knew how to adequately describe their impact, but thank you again, my friend.)
Thanks for your interest, Phyl, and the kind suggestion. Maybe one day it'll be a right move to make.
hugs
Hops
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Hops,
It is a sad, yet healthy realization to know you are powerless. I wish you continued strength in your loving detachment. Thanks for bringing me up to date.
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((Hops))
I'm glad your DD's stepb visits her. I'm glad her sm reaches out to you. That it brings comfort, even cold comfort seems positive.
I know this.....I think of you and your DD often...would heal the distance if I had the power.
Walking with you....
Lighter
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Thanks, ((Lighter.))
I'm breathing better and will probably release the latest fully after SM's visit Monday. Almost wish I hadn't invited her (not her fault) but will just try to make it mellow.
Glad I'm heading to the beach soon. It'll help too.
hugs,
Hops
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Held my first Covenant Group (of this church year) tonight and it really soothed my soul. Or heart, whatev.
I think because pandemic time has squeezed people so hard, kind of down to their truest truths, all six women were open, deeply authentic, and shared really meaningful stuff about themselves. It was lovely. And surprising.
I found myself sharing my D story (brief, truthful, neither sugarcoated nor dramatic) as part of the Who Am I? section. And yet I still laughed, felt love and connection and nothing other than present to each of them. For me, this was a New Moment.
It was so good to be real, unafraid, and open. Even on Zoom! It showed me that D story or not, I am still so healed compared to where I once was, and life still brings me joy, and new people to love will appear as long as I breathe.
hugs
Hops
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I don't know if it's Covid or healing or practice and comfort sensing the sharp and tender internal spaces, but I'm glad you're connecting deeply with your Covenant Group.
The beach has always been a healing place to spend time for me, Hops.
Lighter
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Opened a stray email...I still get the newsletter from Dr. Jonathan Coleman (the estrangement specialist, among other things) and liked this that he just sent:
"They Should Be Apologizing - to Me!"
I get it.
In a fair world they would.
They would see that all of the hard work raising them, sacrificing for them, helping them, worrying about them and supporting them would mean more than it apparently does.
At least it would mean enough for them to apologize for all of the ways that this estrangement has broken your heart, caused you to unfairly question your value as a parent, let alone as a person.
How it has made it harder for you to focus on all of the other things in your life that need your focus - deserve your focus.
They should apologize to you for the estrangement resulting in the need for you to visit therapists, attend webinars, read books, go [online] to desperately try to find a solution when all of this could be ended with a simple phone call or two, a visit, or a few therapy sessions.
But, it's not fair and it may never be.
That's your mistake.
Thinking that it should be fair.
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Wowsers, Hops.
So true. The words
"fair and just...."
they're only words.
Adjusting expectations and releasing outcome is so difficult, but a tremendous relief. At least when I manage them, on and off. Just practicing.
Lighter
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Condensed version:
After 11 years (10? 12? stopped keeping track) I heard from my D. She has lost her 2 front teeth and is desperate enough to deal with it. Has no money, so she created a new GoFundMe. Her update there was extremely detailed and I believe she is honest (gives evidence of everything) and I decided to pay for it. The image of her was heartrending (the gaps where her front teeth have crumbled away). She gave way TMI but included that somebody on Zoom said she looks "scary" and another said she looks "like a thug." I can imagine how crushing that's been. She's already completely altered by the steroid weight (Addison's disease). It is so very sad.
Also, she mentioned that she's living in a motel. (Got kicked out of the friend's basement thing, don't know why.) I'm assuming this is from a homeless benefit. She is looking for work, completed a program called Women to Work. Trying.
She IS desperate or would not have reached out to me. First it was getting a group email that likely went to all people who'd donated previously for medical. Next it was a copy of that sent to me and my SIL (who hasn't contacted me since the stuff with Nbro so that's another sign of desperation). Didn't reply to either. Finally got a direct email to me only: "Please help." I know it's real and my emergency fund will cover it.
Talked it over with my T and am at peace with doing it. Emailed D that I will, need the address, she replied with it. Called her dentist, sending deposit for the work tomorrow. Feel at peace and have no magical thinking, expectations or fantasies about reuniting.
But it's ironic that I replied (T's advice): Will not be able to help with future financial needs so this is a one-time thing. It's possible because of you taking me to that Dave Ramsey course years ago.
She replied immediately: So if you can help other one-times, here's my Paypal, etc. Almost made me laugh. What I said (one-time thing) sailed right by. But that's my boundary. I'm a different person than I was. Different mother. No dreams.
Complex series of feelings the last two days. But all in all, from my end, it's good.
hugs
Hops
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Hops..... I was so worried about you in the beginning of your post.
Then....
I was relieved for your DD's sake......
the necessary dental work commencing.....
I felt it, physically.
Now....
at the end of your post.....
your grace and strength.....
hard won.....
are apparent.
I'm not worried about you.
I'm inspired by you, ((Hops.))
Lighter
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(((Lighter))), that was beyond kind.
Thank you.
hugs
Hops
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So my D has been sending me emails. When I see her name I catch my breath and still can't quite believe it. I'm keeping my responses civil and kind but dry. A bit distant. I worry about the one-step-back that's likely on the way.
In two messages, she said kind words to me. One about the stroke and several "thank you very much" messages after I committed to pay for her dental work.
In my first response, per T's advice I said "this will be a one-time thing, and I can't help you with future financial requests." D responded instantly with alternate ways to send her money (Paypal, etc). Then a couple pleasant emails. Then another request for money or array of my give-more menu offerings (Amazon wishlist, online fundraiser, etc).
Yesterday came one titled "Urgent Winter and Health Care Needs" and it was more shopping lists, money sending apps. She began it with "as I work to fend off potential homelessness..." etc. It hooked me in the chest and then I remembered. I have to say I'm also sad that she still seems to have no awareness of how her pattern affects me. True and piteous stories of her situation with never a single apology or acknowledgement of the years of deepest hurt on my end. What troubles me is I have felt waves of manipulation coming and that actually scares me.
To be overdramatic, I fear that the money I just gave her was like blood in the water. I'm only getting older and it's important not to be vulnerable to anyone who ignores boundaries I set, or even comes into my life to "take over" with an eye on the house. She knows I've left it to her but I hope she's not in a grifter rush.
Can't say I blame her. Her life IS precarious and she's had great misery. I just don't want to get wound up in a web of re$cue rescue rescue rescue that leaves me unable to stay connected to my arduously-reclaimed capacity for happiness.
So I reminded her: The dental was a one-time thing and I can't help further. She replied INSTANTLY well when you can help, please donate here etc, repeating the links and I just felt pressured AND guilty for not whipping out my checkbook. What I have saved is just to help me survive retirement. I gave her my whole emergency fund a month back and told her then "one time thing".
So I responded, "I ask that you not keep pitching me for more money" and so far, no response. Maybe she'll shut and lock the door again (her walkout so many years ago was the first time I said No more money; so I guess the only reason I got some kind words this time was that--I'd just given her thousands. Maybe she has a little nostalgia too, but I don't really know).
My goal for seeing T today is to work on how to stay in my own life, not get caught up with hers. I noticed that in the last week or so since hearing from her, I've gone back to major all-night insomnia, poor eating and generally ... not taking care of me.
Dunno if I'm scared, callous, rebrokenhearted, or what. I'm doing okay and do not regret paying for her dental job. I also don't expect her to be a different person than she was those years ago. But I think I was hoping. She did change a bit in that she contacted me at all and spoke civilly. Her tone in the first one was accusatory but also not rational. "I know you have my birth certificate, you took it, etc." I'd replied just "Our memories differ" and offered to get her certififed copies. She calmed down after that first one and said thank you.
Enough, Hops. I'll get past it and she will probably return to NC. I feel guilt that I'd almost welcome it.
hugs
Hops
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Huh. I've got to get better at telling the difference between rational concern/fear and irrational negativity.
She didn't respond to me saying "No [more pitching me for money]" with anger or coldness. She just wrote again later repeating "thank you" to tell me she has her first procedure in the dental series today. And hinting that she's dreading it.
I wrote back I'm very glad it's happening, her restored smile will be worth it, and she will figure out what works for her to stay calm (suggested headphones).
She wrote again repeating how traumatic the whole thing has been since the accident when she was 11. I know that's true; she was traumatized by the blow itself, the veneers, but espeically having good teeth ground down to anchor the new teeth. She perseverates on "I'm upset they destroyed good teeth to build the new ones."
I can understand that because I felt exactly the same when they made me bridges to fill the gap where I had only baby teeth.
Anyhow, that felt better and more normal. I really think when she fixates and repeats again and again, that could be part of her trifecta: bipolar, Aspergers and ADHD -- just don't know which one.
Anyway, I feel better that she didn't respond to my No the way she did before.
hugs,
Hops
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I can't imagine how many emotions and unspoken needs you keep safe behind your boundaries, Hops. I think your boundaries will kepe you safe, even if they flex and almost break..... as long as you come back to them.... I think they'll see you through. Believing you can hold them... I believe you can..... do you believe you can?
I think your strenth with boundaries is your DD's best chance to stop repeating mistakes/self sabotage, generally. If things go back to what they were.... everyone knows where that leads, so the choice is easier if you agree to only do things that build DD up and help her get better, rather than remain mired or harmful to you and herself.
Extending the dental care is a selfless act of loving intention disrupting DD's narrative of blaming you. She might be grateful. I believe she is, but the distance between you, created by her..... will have to be spanned by DD.
It's outside your control and I hope you go back to being present with the joy in your life. Tidying your home. Snuggling with Pooch.
Chats with your church family..... the ritual of writing...the warmth of your firepit and travel to visit cherished friends.
They're always available to you, as is worry and fear.
((((Hops)))) You're doing your best and that's all you can do. Worrying won't help anything, but proper rest, avoiding survival mode and turning towards joy makes can make all the difference, IME.
Lighter
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The most important lesson I can share, is to focus on the concrete; on what is - and don't let your imagination try to connect any dots, explain things, or try to mind-read or speculate. I think you're doing that, Hops. (None of us ever master that, btw...)
Stick with the present and don't drift into future possibilities. It will be what it will be.
Within that structure, you can probably be pretty safe in sitting with whatever feelings or intuitions you have.
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How're you doing, Hops?
You doing OK?
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Pretty well, Lighter, no small thanks to you and Amber.
What you both have said has been so bolstering.
I'm still hearing brief updates from D, one with a pic of her with the temporary teeth. She's become stunningly overweight but I think it's her response to the steroids and maybe comfort eating too. Won't get involved in any advice, natch, but I'm sad for her. Her smile looks real and complete and I could see how happy it's making her.
Overall I'm doing minimal but nice responses. Not asking questions or trying to get closer. I remain ambivalent but not angry. Just wary, and still caring. We'll see.
Meanwhile, I'm working at focusing on my own life again. The organizing is slow but steady and every little area restored to sanity lifts my spirits. Long way to go, particuarly with the paperwork, but so it is. Leaving that for last since that's where my anxiety is headquartered. Once I'm enjoying the rest of my home in serenity it'll feel less threatening to tackle paper management. It's a huge pileup. Later. Later.
Friends are good. I've distanced myself from rant-friend and am getting closer to some others. All good! Writing a good deal, and start an in-person poetry workhop in a week or so. Gave a lay "sermon" that was a joyful experience. Prolly told y'all that already.
hugs
Hops
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Reading about your DD's smile makes my heart glad, Hops.
You,
honoring yourself and holding boundaries,
makes it soar!
Not gonna lie.... emotions sound complicated, but you're creating new ways of being.
There are no perfect choices and no mistakes.
Just noticing what's there, sans judgment.
My T would say "sitting in gentle awareness." Yup yup yup.
That's the most loving thing you can do for your child, ((Hops.))
Honor yourself and model self care, above all, bc you wish those things for her.
You're a good Mother, ((Hops.))
Lighter
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Thanks, ((((((Lighter))))))). I know I was or always tried to be.
It's not "active mothering" now and that's what's sanest. Likely for us both.
I want to make ongoing decisions to never go back to the 24/7 anguish.
I am a different mother now.
Nature and fortune hand us random results sometimes, accepting them is the job.
hugs
Hops
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You might have a rethink about what "active parenting" means, Hops.
Going to dinner and shopping is an easy thing.
The heavy lifting of discerning what will help a/your struggling child vs enabling her to carry on with destructive patterns is, IME, a very high level of active parenting.
DD's narrative of being abandoned by you is wrong. I hope you haven't bought into it, even a tiny unconscious bit, bc it's not true.
You're patiently standing by, shining a light in healthier spaces, offering DD the choice to make changes too....
to walk towards and into that light, maybe.....
or continue experiencing negative consequences so her discomfort moves her into new directions eventually.
Discomfort is catalyst for big change....it's not punishment or abandonment. This is truth. For you. Me. Everyone on this board and for our children and all humans.
Holding boundaries with children IS active parenting. Holding out the chance for healing and change is active parenting. Extending empathy and compassion, while resisting the urge to rescue and save children from themselves is very active parenting, IME, bc DD will learn she's in charge of saving herself.
That's.
Huge.
Active parenting.
::nodding::.
Highest levels.
Lighter
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I agree with everything Lighter wrote!
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This likely sounds terrible, but I'm not sure I believe that "holding out the chance for healing and change" is what I can or even should try to do with her any more. I can only work on myself, rather than view myself as some kind of leader for her.
When I saw the photo it crystallized how very far away she has gone, and I frankly am comfortable only when I stop holding out anything to her. I do respond with simple courtesy on the surface and kind words, but I am also tuned into not expressing too much compassion. Sounds sick, but I can hold it privately only.
She has shown subtle signs of still using my compassion as vulnerability she can go after. I've been comforted by the sole (big) act of help I chose to give, but I'm still done with trying to model or hold out or narrate or inspire change. Really, I can't. I don't want to. It's still extremely sad and I believe it's best for us both that I not daydream about her changing. She is so far away and so severely disabled by all rational measures that it's better not to fantasize.
And unfortunately, I still have to be very very guarded and protect myself (not my natural M.O.; therein lies the danger). She is a beautiful wolf. Highly intelligent, manipulative, charming and even cunning. I don't want to welcome all of that back into my life.
hugs,
Hops
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Heard, Hops. I deal with a similar situation.
But can you combine "releasing the outcome" with holding a space for the POSSIBILITY of (someday) positive change? Without defining what that would have to look like?
You wouldn't be opening up your vulnerability to being taken advantage of, that way. And functionally, I understand and support your current "strategy" for dealing with this new avenue of communication.
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I believe the chance for change is a happy by product of the choices you made, and not something you're holding on to, Hops.
It comforted me.
Not gonna lie...
I wanted it to comfort you too.
Lighter
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Thanks, Amber and Lighter. A lot.
You're both wise, rich with nuggets from your own deeply lived pasts, and truly generous to share them. Thank you.
I think what I was reporting on was some fear I was feeling at her re-emergence. I love her still, but it's more the memory of her before bipolar and the other diagnoses took over. And in nearly every single situation with a narcissistic person I've found in my life (and I sniffed them out like a hunting dog) -- I've taken the love and forgive route and kicked self-protection to the curb. I do love my daughter and I do forgive her, but the gradual changes in her character (or reveals of it) caught me those years ago unaware, uncomprehending, flinging myself under the tractor wheels. I just wasn't able to believe that someone I thought loved me, would take pleasure in hurting me. Then I recognized her expression one day, which her father had shown, too. A little smile when I was absolutely devastated on the canvas.
I don't blame her because blame is the deadest of dead ends. But I got around to recognizing that in my situation, without family support or allies, I had to learn I need to be all of it for myself. (I think Tupp may feel a similar resolve.) And if I had a sister, or a trusted cousin, for sure I'd tell them all my truth. Now I'm reaching for some closer relationships (sisterhood style) here IRL that have always been possible, but I couldn't see. Love and support still available, I just had to open up, forcing myself out of isolation, and what was I always preaching? Allowing for the possibility of good things happening?
I am glad you both reminded me....I have to allow that for my D, too. Just a couple semi-hostile or critical emails from her had sent me cringing again. But I won't get stuck there, promise.
Boundaries are everything. I still sense her pure self missing somewhat having a mother. A little tendril from all the trauma she's been through waving in my direction for comfort. And I surely have the tendrils, too.
I've noticed a weird feeling of unexpected ease in my heart. It's as though the stump of an amputation stopped hurting, and I'm moving through my days without much anxiety (moments sometimes) and with a feeling of new peace. I won't fantasize because fantasizing is always my downfall. So, NO plans/expectations/specific hopes/daydreams/wishes/hopes/grand new roles allowed. I really do know this. I'm freer, better, more at peace without them.
Sorry I'm so hypervigilant about that, Lighter. Not you, but "it" (the daydreams) are threatening to me. I lost years hoping and fantasizing and won't get them back. What I CAN to is go forward taking each present day as it comes, and if messages from my D are part of one now and then, finding my center and not letting the pathos and misery of her situation "hook" me into fixit fantasies.
Yes, I need to allow for the possibility of good things happening. I just won't imagine myself as the driver of them. Motherhood is gone for me. Loving this child doesn't have to be gone; being vulnerable to her does.
A brutal truth. But I did learn it.
hugs and more thanks,
Hops
PS -- Irony smacked me upside-a-da-head when I read this right after writing this post to y'all. It's not about a parent-adult child situation, but you'll see the parallels. I'm referring to the first letter, and Hax's reply. (Free link's good for a week, I think.) https://wapo.st/3tQJf2c (https://wapo.st/3tQJf2c)
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I think I've been sounding so brittle about all of this is because my heart has sprung a leak and I'm thinking about her a LOT. Partly it feels good -- I kind of relive the small moments when I read a friendly-sounding message, then my mind goes back into happy memories I had locked away.
For many years now I've practiced release so constantly that I don't know how to, or whether to, try to take hold of her hand again.
It's okay and my heart isn't welded shut. Just lots of feelings got churned up and I'm not sure how to handle them. The answer is probably just staying in the present, and when something happens or comes from my D, just breathe.
I don't know, but imagine that once all the dental restoration is complete, she'll fade out of reach again, particularly since no more money's coming. I just have no idea.
Nose off the pebbles time?
hugs
Hops
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I'm sorry I didn't put myself in your shoes any better than I did. I forgot boundaries are built so very close to the pebbles. And the battle trenches....
so easy to fall... under stress, IME.
You seemed so rock solid..... and I believe in your ability to hold.....
hold....
hold long enough, well enough to keep yourself safe. I hope you believe too.
Everything you posted made complete sense and of course you're feeling the way you do. How could you not?
Just know.... I'm here, mentally holding boundaries with you.....and reminding you what helps.....
be so so so kind to yourself.....
drop expectations and judgments....
embrace curiosity.....
accept what you can't change and release outcome.
About holding space for possibilities....
I've decided holding space for not knowing everthing feels better in my body than the former.
Keep your head where your feet are, ((Hops.))
Lighter
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Nothing to apologize for, Lighter!
I like your compassionate fantasies about "modeling behavior" for her.
I don't think my D, in her forties, is looking to me to model anything.
And she has huge boiling obstacles, many within herself, to figuring herself out.
It wrings my heart. But love is not a cure. Damnit. I wrote her today that Part 2 of my payment will reach the dentist a bit later because of snow here, and because their office hadn't made it clear. (I thought Part 2 would be due when the work was complete, but turns out they want all of it in advance since I'm out of state.)
Okay, but it's going to take a lot of juggling between two banks, in person, on Monday. Hopefully we don't get another snowfall enough to ice the streets.
She responded with an email complaining about how inconvenient this is for her.
Sigh,
Hops
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Modeling schmodeling.
I just see you making tough choices, Hops.
Nose on and off the pebble....
choices.
(SO weird there's a C in the word Choice, don't you think?)
Every day you choose to focus on joy/self care
instead of regret and pain.... things you can't control....
is you holding a lantern up down the path for those who CAN see.
Maybe DD can't see
maybe she can.....
maybe she will, at some point, but
just know.....
I see you, Hops.
As my father used to say....
"Im your witness." Lots of people see you, ((Hops.))
Lighter
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Thanks, ((((Lighter)))).
I'm managing to stay fairly calm and though I trashed my kitchen again, still oddly feel happy at the core.
Considering everything, my D-triggering has been fairly brief and not too overwhelming.
I think one day at a time is really helping at the moment. Spent a lot of distraction time for a few days and it felt good. Friend visited today and we laughed a lot. Had a major cuddle with Pooch and snow is beautiful. Poetry class was intense (in a good way) and that's exciting too.
I'd like all my days this simple.
hugs
Hops
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That was a really nice update, Hops.
Just what I needed to see from my position on the ground, spitting (fig.) teeth.
I'll post about it on a the Mindfulness thread, but....
it was really nice to see you standing down the path....
holding that lantern.
Lighter
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Felt good to post some calm and happy moments, for sure.
That's what we've all got, day to day.
I think the distress it's all churned up was/is the Big Sadness of my life, which I thought I'd been able to move past. Of course, I can't move past it fully as long as she and I are both alive and she is suffering. Mother-heart still grieves for her, while trying to balance my own needs. She's in a very tough situation, and nothing can be done about the inner biologic causes that are out of her control. I tend to feel responsible for all the outer causes (not having the money she needs or secure housing)...and if I were wealthy, I'd take care of it.
There's something awful about not being able to help your child materially as much as they need.
I hope her life calms soon. It's no wonder to me that her adrenals got destroyed, given the constant stress of trying to survive with a betraying brain. She's lived with dire swings for a long time. Bipolar can be a manageable or a horrible condition.
hugs
Hops