Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: sleepyhead on March 10, 2005, 05:30:47 AM
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Here goes, a few scenes from my childhood:
I am four? five?, and we have guests over for dinner, fun! These are people that I know, friends of the family, maybe even some family? Don't really remember. Anyway I want to help clear the table, so i take a plate out to the kitchen. Unfortunately I drop it, and it breaks...My mother starts shouting and raging at me, absolutely furious. I am crying and screaming back at her: "I didn't mean to, You can't yell at me, it's not fair, it's not fair, I didn't do it on purpose!" she just keeps raging. The guests who are in the next room must have heard this, but no-one came to my defence. I can still feel my complete despair and hurt and shame and guilt and all the rest of the horrible feelings.
I think that I am seven. My mother is taking classes I think, and my sister is a lot older than me, so comes home much later. I don't know why I'm not in daycare after school, maybe because we just moved? More likely that my mother think I am too old. Anyway, she leaves the key under a rock on the patio every day so I can get in, and don't have to wait outside for a couple of hours. But on this particular day she has managed to put the key too far onder the rock, so that the actual weight of the rock is on it, actually, it is so far under the rock that I can't even see it, and think that maybe she forgot to put it there? The rock is about the size of a man's head, so is much to heavy for me to budge. I can't get in the house, so I have to wait outside. This is not to bad, because it is spring and warm, and I like being outside. But after an hour or so I feel the need to go to the toilet. And not a number one either. I don't think I have time to make it to one of my classmates homes. I contemplate crawling into the bushes and do it, but there will be no paper, so i will still soil my pants, and what if the neighbours see me? (It never occurs to me to go to one of the neighbours and ask to use the toilet, because I am very shy. I end up doing it in my pants. When my mother comes home, of course, she rages at me for not getting the key, I tell her that I couldn't get the key, but she jsut becomes even more angry, maybe she doesn't believe me.She shows no sympaty for me, no empathy for the humiliation, shame and guilt I already feel, but just keeps loading more of the same on to me.
After that I'm allowed to wear the key on a string around my neck.
I am seven or eight. In school they have told us to bring something in to iron, 'cause we are learning to do this. I tell my mother and she gives me one of my shirts and a plastic bag to carry it in, no hanger. We do the ironing in a different building from school, right after that we have to go back to school, so i put my shirt in my plastic bag and go to school. This is in the morning. The shirt lies in the plastic bag all day and gets more and more wrinkled. When I get home mymother asks to see it. I show it to her and she laughs, scorns me, tells me what a horrible job I've done: "It is more wrinkled than it was this morning!"
Many years later my mother tells me that around this time my teachers contacted her. They were worried about me, thought I might be semi-autistic. My mother is laughing when she tells me this, "as if something could be wrong with her daughter"!? Apparently she just told them there was nothing wrong with me and that was that. It never entered her mind to wonder why they would believe such a thing, or to worry about me or even ask me how I was doing.
These are just a few fragments, but it still feels very hard to post them. I feel ashamed that these things happened to me (that I let them happen?), and I feel ashamed for "whining" about them now. It's not so bad, many people had it much worse. But I remember being depressed as early as at five, only I didn't have that word for it, I called it "homesickness", only I felt homesick at home too. I was never afraid of death, in fact I used to think it was strange to be afraid of death (and there was no religion in my family, so I didn't think I would go to heaven), and used to climb in high places above concrete or asphalt. I never fell though, for which I am grateful today.
Pressing submit is going to be difficult, but there are some things that have to be done no matter how scary and painful. Please don't hate me!
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((((sleepyhead))))
Sorry to hear those things and no one is going to hate you. And what is it with people, no 7 year old ought to be at home alone anyways.
LM
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Sleepyhead:
There is no reason in the world for me to think ill of you. These things happened to you as a child, and the point is you were a child.....nothing more or less. If I were there with you in person right now I would tell you that I care about you and what can I do to help you.
Your validation of the experiences you have are true. Your mother's lack of "mothering" in these circumstances are true. The feelings you had as a child are true. What happened is true.
There is no humiliation here at this board, only truth of your experiences.
Let the child in you speak, and give voice to those things that were not allowed. We are all here for you to hear that. Much love, Patz
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sleepyhead:
I'm glad to see you are processing things from your childhood. Keep getting it out through your posts.
It's very sad to me that a Mother would chose to treat her own child so cruely. I'm sorry that you never knew what a warm and nurturing Mom is like.
But hey, you have us now and we will be here for you.
((((sleepyhead))))
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((LM)) ((Patz)) ((mia))
Thank you so much for your replies, I'm sitting here with tears in my eyes reading the kind and caring things you write. I don't even know what to say except thank you for caring and for being kind! :oops:
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((LM)) ((Patz)) ((mia))
Thank you so much for your replies, I'm sitting here with tears in my eyes reading the kind and caring things you write. I don't even know what to say except thank you for caring and for being kind! :oops:
I do this too. When people are nice to me I thank them for being kind. Which makes them kind and leaves open whether a 'normal' person would say the same nice things or not. It is a way of deflecting the 'good' attention away from me and back onto them. It also contains doubt that you are actually worth what they say. Perhaps also, because they are 'kind' they are unduly biased in some way. :?
So, what if I say that LM, Patz and Mia are not (just) being kind here. They are speaking the truth; you did not deserve what happened to you, and your mother was abusive towards you. You needed love and acceptance, and found only rejection and humiliation. That is not right, and has left you hurt, even now. You were and are a very valuable person, deserving of love.
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When people are nice to me I thank them for being kind. Which makes them kind and leaves open whether a 'normal' person would say the same nice things or not. It is a way of deflecting the 'good' attention away from me and back onto them. It also contains doubt that you are actually worth what they say. Perhaps also, because they are 'kind' they are unduly biased in some way.
Amen!! I can soooo relate to this.
Sleepyhead,
My heart breaks for the childhood you were forced to lead. Do not feel guilty or that you are whining. These are memories that have left you scarred and to face them can only be healing.
I had some friends tell me recently that I sometimes mumble when I respond to things. I was told that a lot by my father growing up and constantly chastised for it. I think I finally understand that it is because I'm afraid my response will be criticized so I'm afraid to speak up.
These are all baby steps toward healing those childhood injuries. Keep talking and sharing. No one here will criticize or think less of you.
Brigid
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Hi Sleepyhead,
Thanks for sharing this stuff. It not only helps you, but it helps other people (like me :( ) who have been through the same kinds of things to know they are not alone.
Unfortunately one of the effects of this stuff (that I've been told by a couple therapists) is that a child who is treated badly looks for a reason, and since adults are supposed to be role models, the only reason they come up with is that they themselves are bad and therefore deserve to be treated badly. Maybe that's why you feel ashamed to write it - but rest assured you have nothing to be ashamed of. (I know this is easier said than done.)
This is not to try and "one up" you, but like you did for me, I want you to know you weren't alone: It was just me and my Nmom growing up: I wore a key around my neck from the time I started school in kindergarten - she wasn't home when I left for school or when I got home, often because she was taking classes because she wasn't going to let my existence stop her from going to college. My mother wrote a list (in crayon) of things for me to do in the morning to get ready; e.g., brush teeth, wash face, etc. When I had behavior problems in school it was, so she tells me, because I was "bored because I was too smart." Of course, like you said, HER daughter couldn't REALLY have problems. Obviously I could go on (and on). I have actually told a big part of my story on this board many months ago. Go ahead and LET IT OUT!!!
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Hiya Sleepyhead:
Good for you for pressing "submit"!!! :D Great Job!! :D
I feel ashamed that these things happened to me (that I let them happen?),
Children don't let abuse happen. They have no way to stop it, or to protect themselves. You were a child and had no way to leave, or to know-how to escape her wrath!! You have nothing to be ashamed of in regard to these incidents. Notta!!
I feel ashamed for "whining" about them now.
Speaking about stuff that hurt us and how we felt and might still feel about it ......is not whining....it's healthy. There is no shame in having been abused, especially as a child. Even adults.....can feel totally confused, powerless, torn, unsure how to deal, lost, frozen, numb, terrified...all kinds of things that cause them to continue to withstand abuse. The abuse....PRODUCED...those feelings and those feelings are part of the abuse....so again.....I see no valid reason to feel shame. See what I mean?
Ofcourse....I'm not telling you how you should or should not feel. I understand your shame and even feel it myself....sometimes and I have to tell myself these things too. I'm glad you are speaking about what is bothering you because it will help a lot. :D
Please don't hate me!
By now, I bet you have read some of the posts from other people and some of their stories and their expressions of stuff and all of that, right?
Do you hate any of them? What do you feel for them and their stories and their feelings and their situations??
I bet...you feel empathy and their pain and maybe a bit of brotherly/sisterly love for them?
Or maybe....just understanding and wishing you could say something to help?
Or lot's of other good, kind things and stuff?
Welll......I feel all of that for you too and my best guess is..so do a lot of other people here.
Your enemies might hate you but no one here is your enemy.
No worries!! :D
(((((((((((((Sleepyhead)))))))))))
Ok.......I'm gonna press "submit" now and hope it helps and if not, I trust you will understand that I mean well. Ok? Keep posting!!!!
GFN
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October: I guess you are right, I do feel unworthy, even after reading this board for weeks (and I don't have a job at the moment, so have plenty of time to read), and seeing how wonderful everyone is, I still believe somewhere that when it comes to me they will be hostile and hurtful. And since I know that no-one on this board is like that, it must have something to do with what I feel about myself :oops: . Thank you for understanding and validating me, and forcing me to look at the way I look at myself. But I still think that you are a kind, warm and caring person :wink: , and that goes for everyone here!
Brigid:I had some friends tell me recently that I sometimes mumble when I respond to things. I was told that a lot by my father growing up and constantly chastised for it. I think I finally understand that it is because I'm afraid my response will be criticized so I'm afraid to speak up.
I was very quiet when I was a kid, it wasn't until I was sixteen that I started actually talking to people (this was at the same time as I got my first real, caring and good friends, strange coincidence huh?) :) Thanks for being here and caring, and the good thing is that in writing you can't mumble! (Although I remember a girl in my class who wrote with such small letters that the teacher couldn't even read it! I wonder if her story was similar to ours?) :(
Gwyn: Glad to hear I can actually help someone! That put a smile on my face (and I've beeen doing a lot of crying today :cry: ). I know we don't have the same mother, but mine has a lot of sisters, maybe you're one of my cousins! I'm gonna have to try to dig up your old posts to compare notes :wink: .
God, I really love evryone on this board so much! You are all wonderful people!
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((((GFN))))
Thanks! I know what you mean and I even know those things (about it not being my fault) somewhere, but hearing someone else say it really helps to spread it to other parts of my mind (sorry for the weird way I sid that, but I think you'll understand).Ok.......I'm gonna press "submit" now and hope it helps and if not, I trust you will understand that I mean well. Ok? Keep posting!!!!
It does help, enormously, and I understand that you mean well, thanks for trusting me on that! :)
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sleepyhead
I just wanted to add that children are a precious gift from God and your Mom decided to reject that gift. She didn't deserve you. You were nothing more than an innocent who was born into a situation in which you had no control.
Every child on the face of the planet is worthy of unconditional love from a parent. Your mom denied you of that b/c she was so damaged herself that she had nothing to give.
I want to reassure you that there's a lot of love out in this world.Hard to find sometimes? Yes.....but it's out there and no one is more deserving than you to receive it.
As a Mom I am going to step in and say something your Mom should have said to you long ago: Baby, you're the greatest! :D
Mia
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Hey again Sleepyhead:
Thanks for the hug!!!
...hearing someone else say it really helps to spread it to other parts of my mind (sorry for the weird way I sid that, but I think you'll understand).
I love the way you worded that.....I don't think it's weird at all and you are so right....I do understand what you mean.
For me....it's like puppy training. :shock:
Repetition. Positive reinforcement. Challenging distractions. Lot's of gentleness and pats (hugs) along the way. All of that.....helps.
...thanks for trusting me on that!
Thankyou for saying that.
I'm off to work!! Busy day ahead! Hope you and all have a good one!!
GFN
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Oh, Sleepyhead... I wish I could rewind the clock and I would be your mom!
Those experiences could have been moments of great motherly love...oh, how your mom missed the boat!
This is part of you, though, and from what I sense, you are now a compassionate and loving person. This lack of compassion you felt from your "mother" (in physicality only?) brought you to understand what compassion and love really should be. A backwards way to get that understanding, for sure, but you have it now. Perhaps you can feel it???
In this way, you have helped me see, how becoming a compassionate person starts with ourselves. You were brave enough to post this (thank you), to show compassion for your childhood pain, and through it have touched all of us. Thank you so much.
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Mum: there you go and make me cry again!
I wish I could rewind the clock and I would be your mom!
So do I!
your "mother" (in physicality only?)
Yes, I've been calling myself an orphan for years, because my parents were never my parents, just people who happened to spawn me... :cry: But I'm so unbelievably happy and even (dare I say it?) proud that I haven't ended up like them!
I have actually made a point of referring to my mother as "mother" here, because I don't want to sully your board-name, and because she wasn't a mum, but you are.
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(((Sleepyhead))) just read your posts :cry:
I was never afraid of death, in fact I used to think it was strange to be afraid of death (and there was no religion in my family, so I didn't think I would go to heaven),
Ditto many times over. Remember lying in bed at night trying to imagine ‘not being’ and finding it easy to think about. Was half-way there in a sense I guess.
No job here either but trying. Will work with you any day :D , and October too :D (I’m in the UK too). Always wanted to work with people who simply aren’t self-absorbed sh*ts. It doesn’t matter what the work is so long as there’s some kind of achievement/goal and the people are okay! I know it’s too much to ask.
I was very quiet when I was a kid, it wasn't until I was sixteen that I started actually talking to people (this was at the same time as I got my first real, caring and good friends
Same again. Then I had a series of events in early 20s that led to me virtually whispering at work, people always telling me to speak up, even one-to-one. Voicelessness, sheesh.
So sorry about your mother. So sorry for little sleepyhead in the garden, at school, at ‘home’.
Sorry if I’ve missed it but do you have any children? I don’t, part of the legacy. Keep posting Sleepyhead.
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This lack of compassion you felt from your "mother" (in physicality only?) brought you to understand what compassion and love really should be. A backwards way to get that understanding, for sure, but you have it now.
(I'm so glad I finally learned how to do that!)
Mum,
I think you're onto something here. Its nice to think that the abuse or neglect that we may have felt in childhood actually translated to a positive emotion within ourselves today. I know that it taught me how not to be a parent and I have worked so hard to always make my children feel loved and valued beyond words.
Brigid
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sleepyhead, congratulations on taking a chance and posting here. Whether you realize it or not, you are opening up a little gate in your protective walls to let good things and good people in. At the same time you can let some of the bad "things" and bad people out. That is tremendous, thank you for sharing with us!
These are just a few fragments, but it still feels very hard to post them. I feel ashamed that these things happened to me (that I let them happen?), and I feel ashamed for "whining" about them now. It's not so bad, many people had it much worse. But I remember being depressed as early as at five, only I didn't have that word for it, I called it "homesickness", only I felt homesick at home too. I was never afraid of death, in fact I used to think it was strange to be afraid of death (and there was no religion in my family, so I didn't think I would go to heaven), and used to climb in high places above concrete or asphalt. I never fell though, for which I am grateful today.
I really identify with feeling like my story isn't so bad, many other people had it a lot worse than I did. It wasn't until I went into group therapy and people cried (cried!) when I told stories about growing up in my house. I was stunned. It was so "normal" and accepted to me that I didn't even realize there was a problem.
One of the problems was that my parents were emotional imbeciles. They didn't have any idea how to identify, communicate or use their feelings, they were suppressed and leaked out all over the place in damaging ways. So it has been hard for me to identify a problem because nothing happened growing up. But that WAS the problem. Something is SUPPOSED to happen and there is supposed to be emotional interaction and support and teaching and I got NONE of it.
The other problem is that my parents "trusted" me to set my own limits. They were too intimidated by me (little me) to set hardly any limits, boundaries and curfews. I never got the feeling that I was loved because they never said anything like "we aren't letting you go out with these friends because we are afraid something bad might happen to you and you are too valuable to us to risk it." I heard nothing and I pretty much dictated to them what I was going to do. Once again, how could there be a problem is nothing is going on? Because something is SUPPOSED to go on! Parents need to set boundaries to let kids know that their parents care about them and about what happens to them. That they are important. Sorry, my hot button topic today. :oops: I'll take the rest to my thread later.
In your case, you have some (probably a lot of) examples of overt anger, rage, shaming, embarassment, neglect and lack of connection, caring, sympathy and empathy just to name a few. What I have found is that it doesn't matter how far over the line the events were or what form your childhood problems took, they were "bad enough" to be over that line, and leave you with the unmet needs you have today. The results prove the events were bad "enough." You were born perfect, the way God intended. You didn't get loved, cared for, instructed, taught and delighted in the way God intended. It affected you the same way if would affect any other of God's perfect children. :)
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Hi sleepyhead,
Just adding my voice to say you didn't cause the abuse and you aren't whining either. Your mother has some very serious problems and was unqualified to parent a child. It was tragic that she attempted it. But you're okay despite her inadequacy.
bunny
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Hi sleepyhead
I could see that poor scared darling child trying to figure out what to do... how to get into the house... how to find a way to use the toilet... poor baby, it wasn't your fault, none of it was your fault, you deserved only love and the best of care.
Brava for standing up for yourself when you broke that dish by accident. That was so brave! Even though you weren't heard or protected by the other adults, that was so brave of you. You knew what was the truth and what was fair. Even then you knew.
[And what kind of excuse for a mother sets her kid up like that, sending a littlie anywhere carrying breakables!!!!!! Agghhhhhhhhh!!!!! :shock: :shock: :shock: Shame on her, never on you.]
So glad you're here. Welcome home.
(((((sleepyhead)))))
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Hi again all!
I want to reassure you that there's a lot of love out in this world.Hard to find sometimes? Yes.....
Thanks! I have actually found myself a bit of love, I have a wonderful fiance who tells me how much he loves me several times a day! (Even after almost seven years... :shock: )
For me....it's like puppy training.
I've always thought of myself as more like a kitten though! :D But yesterday I really felt like a happy puppy, wagging my tail at all the wonderful responses I got... When my fiance got home from work I had to tell him: "People are being nice to me! They say nice things!" And he replied:"Of course they do, you're a nice person." I am lucky to have him!
(((Portia)))
Remember lying in bed at night trying to imagine ‘not being’ and finding it easy to think about. Was half-way there in a sense I guess.
Sorry to hear that you had to go through that crap too, I hope that you, like me, have put it behind you by now.
No job here either but trying. Will work with you any day , and October too (I’m in the UK too).
Sounds great! :D We would have to find a job that we could do from Octobers home though... October, are you up for it? :wink:
Sorry if I’ve missed it but do you have any children? I don’t, part of the legacy.
Funny you should ask! I just had it confirmed from the doctor the other day, I'm pregnant! :D I completely understand those children of N's that don't want to have their own kids, is that what you mean by "the legacy"? For me I feel that it is right though, I had one (actually two) of the best teachers in how not to be a parent , and hopefully I learnt a little from that (I agree with Brigid here)! It still feels completely unreal though... There's a human being growing inside of me? No... you must be pulling my leg. :wink:
Longtire, bunny, Stormchild! Thank you so much for validating my experience and making me feel that I have a right to be upset. You have no idea how much that means to me... well, actually, I suppose you do, and it feels good to know that the people here really understand me and where I'm coming from. It's so good to not have to hear the usual: "I'm sure she meant well", "of course she loves you, she's your mother", and so on.
Gwyn: Since our stories seemed to be so similar, I checked out your first post, and was very relieved to find that I was not the only one to have posted about messing my pants :? , nothing new under the sun, eh? Unlike you, we were never poor, but we were always the poorest ones in our neighbourhood (my mother has this thing about wanting to live in a big house), so I can really relate to the clothes thing. Wearing your cousins (and your seven years older sisters) hand-me-downs and the cheapest of supermarket clothes, and your family not having a car, doesn't do you any favours in a neighbourhood where every family has at least two cars and the kids are wearing designer clothes :roll: ! And my mother is fond of saying how she's always put her children's needs first!
Yesterday I was doing a lot of crying and smiling (and wagging my tail), because everyone was so nice to me. Then I started reading "trapped in the mirror", which had finally arrived (ordered it four weeks ago), and today I am furious with my mother! It is one thing to know that you've had a lot of problems in life, because of how your parents screwed you up, but to read that this was (however unconscious), the intention! :evil: :evil: :evil: Arrrghhh! I had to feel her bad feelings about her because she couldn't bear to feel them herself!? Here I have always felt so much sympathy for her over the years because I could feel how much she must really hurt. Well, she didn't feel that pain, did she? Nope, she just dumped it on to my head instead! :evil: Next time I feel sorry for her, I will have to remind myself: "No, she isn't actually feeling the pain, I am." And save the pity and empathy and sympathy for myself and others who deserve it instead!
Anyway, I'm going away for the weekend, so I won't be able to talk to you for a while. :( I don't really want to go, but I feel I have to make an effort to be social. At the moment I'm so confused that I don't even know if it's the "real" me who wants to stay home, or if that is just my mothers voice trying to sabotage something that might be fun. :roll: Anyway, I'll miss you all, and if I have time I will check in for a bit later today.
(((((Everyone)))))
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Sleepyhead BIG CONGRATULATIONS! :D You’ll be a wonderful mum! I’m so pleased for you and your fiancé sounds like a good man too, good news all round.
Gainful employment: maybe we could run some virtual UK thing from our own homes (said the happy hermit)? And you can contribute part-time when the time comes? It sounds too good!
Hey have a great weekend and hope you do have fun. Having fun is a serious matter! :D Hugs, P
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Sounds great! :D We would have to find a job that we could do from Octobers home though... October, are you up for it? :wink:
Funny you should ask! I just had it confirmed from the doctor the other day, I'm pregnant! :D
Longtire, bunny, Stormchild! Thank you so much for validating my experience and making me feel that I have a right to be upset. You have no idea how much that means to me... well, actually, I suppose you do, and it feels good to know that the people here really understand me and where I'm coming from. It's so good to not have to hear the usual: "I'm sure she meant well", "of course she loves you, she's your mother", and so on.
I think we could write a book about the funny side of living with Ns. There is a lot of info here to use. :D
Congratulations on the pregnancy - that is such lovely news!!!!
I too hear the 'of course she loves you' messages a lot. People cannot bear the alternative, can they?
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Congratulations Sleepyhead, what wonderful news! (((Sleepyhead))) (((baby))) (((Sleepyhead's fiance)))
That business about "Oh, of course she loved you" :evil: :evil: just burns my --bleep-- :oops:. It's emotional cowardice, or even worse, laziness, from people who don't want to face reality because courage or work or both might be involved. Grrrrrrr. And to do that to you on top of what you have gone through already. GrrrrrrrRRRRRRrrrr. [Mum's dogs have definitely influenced my vocabulary lately :lol: ]
"Trapped in the Mirror" sounds like a worthwhile read. I have often had the sense that the meanness some Ns display is intended. They just enjoy it too much for it not to be deliberate. Not all of them, but an awful lot of them.
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Thanks! I have actually found myself a bit of love, I have a wonderful fiance who tells me how much he loves me several times a day! (Even after almost seven years... :shock: )
I've always thought of myself as more like a kitten though! :D But yesterday I really felt like a happy puppy, wagging my tail at all the wonderful responses I got... When my fiance got home from work I had to tell him: "People are being nice to me! They say nice things!" And he replied:"Of course they do, you're a nice person." I am lucky to have him!
I'm so glad you have someone like that in your life! I hope that you treat him the same way he treats you. I think that if I come back, I will be a cat. Hmmm.. maybe I WAS a cat before. That explains why I like to lie in the sun and stretch a lot!
Funny you should ask! I just had it confirmed from the doctor the other day, I'm pregnant! :D I completely understand those children of N's that don't want to have their own kids, is that what you mean by "the legacy"? For me I feel that it is right though, I had one (actually two) of the best teachers in how not to be a parent , and hopefully I learnt a little from that (I agree with Brigid here)! It still feels completely unreal though... There's a human being growing inside of me? No... you must be pulling my leg. :wink:
Congratulations! I I have only "known" you for a short time, but know you will be a great mom.
Longtire, bunny, Stormchild! Thank you so much for validating my experience and making me feel that I have a right to be upset. You have no idea how much that means to me... well, actually, I suppose you do, and it feels good to know that the people here really understand me and where I'm coming from. It's so good to not have to hear the usual: "I'm sure she meant well", "of course she loves you, she's your mother", and so on.
You are welcome. We do know how it feels to be surprised when someone actually speaks sense to you!
Yesterday I was doing a lot of crying and smiling (and wagging my tail), because everyone was so nice to me. Then I started reading "trapped in the mirror", which had finally arrived (ordered it four weeks ago), and today I am furious with my mother! It is one thing to know that you've had a lot of problems in life, because of how your parents screwed you up, but to read that this was (however unconscious), the intention! :evil: :evil: :evil: Arrrghhh! I had to feel her bad feelings about her because she couldn't bear to feel them herself!? Here I have always felt so much sympathy for her over the years because I could feel how much she must really hurt. Well, she didn't feel that pain, did she? Nope, she just dumped it on to my head instead! :evil: Next time I feel sorry for her, I will have to remind myself: "No, she isn't actually feeling the pain, I am." And save the pity and empathy and sympathy for myself and others who deserve it instead!
I have done this for a long time with my wife, the N in my life. I understand her better than she does, I am more upset about her problems than she is, and I am more angry at her mother than she is. Actually, I should say "was." These days I'm paying attention to myself and *my* issues, rather than to her.
Anyway, I'm going away for the weekend, so I won't be able to talk to you for a while. :( I don't really want to go, but I feel I have to make an effort to be social. At the moment I'm so confused that I don't even know if it's the "real" me who wants to stay home, or if that is just my mothers voice trying to sabotage something that might be fun. :roll: Anyway, I'll miss you all, and if I have time I will check in for a bit later today.
We'll be here when you get back.
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Hi again all! I'm back, and I did have fun! It was just tricky to lie to them about why I was not drinking, good thing I have so much experience from lying to my mother, actually it's not a good thing, but you know what I mean. I'm not telling anyone about the pregnancy yet (when is it that you're supposed to tell? after the ultrasound?), but I still told you guys. I guess that's because I have told you things I have only ever told my fiancé, and so feel so much closer to you than anyone else :).
At the moment my name is like a rash all over the board and I'm trying very hard to tell myself that that is o.k.. I have been away and am catching up, I'm actually trying to help other people, I am usually on when no-one else is... We're supposed to post, right? That's the whole point, isn't it? Still it is so hard not to feel like an attention-hogging N, even though I love it when other people post a lot, so that I can get to know them.
Portia and October: Thanks for the congratulations! It would be great to write a book about living with N's, I think we would do a lot of crying and laughing while we wrote it! But we would have to move fast, because I'm moving back "home" before the baby comes. I will still be in Europe though, so not that far away. (even if we can't be the Brit Pack anymore, we can still be Eurotrash together). I feel shy about telling what country I come from, not to the people I know here, but you never know who's reading this. After all, even paranoid people can have enemies! :shock:
Stormchild:
That business about "Oh, of course she loved you" just burns my --bleep-- . It's emotional cowardice, or even worse, laziness, from people who don't want to face reality because courage or work or both might be involved.
Wow! I didn't even think to see it that way, I just thought it was to weird for people to comprehend... But you're probably right, they don't want to see it, because it is painful and maybe it stirs up feelings in themselves that they are not ready to confront? Apparently most people who grew up in dysfunctional families feel such a strong need to be loyal to their parents that they don't even realise that anything was wrong! I don't get angry when people say this though, just frustrated that they don't understand, that they can't see that it's a painful realisation that needs to be taken seriously. I don't think anyone would say that their mother didn't love them if they hadn't given it alot of thought and were 100% sure of it. What really gets me mad though is when you read in magazines that "every womans best friend should be her mother". That makes me want to rip someones head off! :evil:
Longtire:Hmmm.. maybe I WAS a cat before. That explains why I like to lie in the sun and stretch a lot!
Yes! I love it too! Sadly there is not much sun here in the U.K. at the moment... but I do sleep a lot and stretch a lot. Now, if only I could be as independent towards my mother as a cat would be... :D
Isn't it infuriating when you realize that you have spent sooo much time taking care of someone else's feelings and needs when they don't give a sh## about yours? After four years of being with me, my exNbf said that he thought that in a relationship you shouldn't have to make an effort of any kind (if you made an effort there was something wrong with the relationship) :!: Sounds as if your wife kind of has the same idea... Oh, but it is totally o.k. to let the non N person slave away for years trying to fix the relationship! And not even bother telling them that they think it's pointless!
We'll be here when you get back.
It's these simple things that just make my eyes fill upwith tears. If I were talking to you right now, I wouldn't be able to speak without crying.
((((Longtire))))
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Congratulations! Although I have already said that in a pm!
Just a quick word of warning to the pregnant people. If you suffer from heartburen towards the end DO NOT EAT HOT CROSS BUNS!! I just had 3 (well I have an excuse!) and I am in so much pain I could cry!!
Also, Sleepyhead, I have read a lot of your posts and I really feel for you. You seem to be coping so well. Much better than a lot of people would have - so take strength in that. It is hard to express empathy in type without sounding like a sanctimonious idiot, but I mean well!! Take care everyone!
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Sleepyhead, post away, I still feel like that; “Oh no! Three Portias showing at the top! Quick somebody else post!” Silly eh? And we can’t help the time difference! I feel kinda privileged that you told us the good news, the board’s a strange wonderful place isn’t it? I’m glad you’re here.
Cadbury. Put those hot cross buns down! :D Three at once?? Stodge-city! :wink:
Anyone over the water: do you have hot cross buns? For Easter?
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Sleepyhead,
my exNbf said that he thought that in a relationship you shouldn't have to make an effort of any kind
You should enter that on the thread for most N comments. Sort of like "love means never having to say your sorry."
Congrats on the baby. I agree to keep it to yourself for now. I think when you hit the 3 month mark its probably OK (and maybe starting to get obvious) to shout it from the rooftops. I learned the hard way by telling everyone right away the first time I got pregnant. I ended up miscarrying and then had to tell everyone that. The second time I waited and it was much better.
Anyone over the water: do you have hot cross buns? For Easter?
Are those the things will small bits of citrus in them and a criss-cross of frosting on top? If so, yes we do see them at Easter time, but I'm not fond of the citrus so don't enjoy them. I think too much of anything will probably do you in when you're farther along in your pregnancy. But it only takes a small amount of chili to do that. Take it from one who had several sleepless nights (I was a slow learner) as a result.
Good luck to all you moms-to-be. You have so much to look forward to. Enjoy every moment because before you know it they're off to college.
:D :D :D or maybe that should be :cry: :cry: :cry:
Brigid
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Dear Sleepyhead,
Congratulations on the news! You and your fiance will be such loving and understanding parents.
(Your ex's comment about not having to make any effort in a relationship rang a bell in my memory...it was my ex saying to me that 'we are so close, we can say ANYTHING to each other.' (And now I can see where that comment was coming from!)
Sleepyhead,take it easy....because you're worth it!
Sincerely,
Lara.
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sleepyhead
Great news! Congratulations!
From the posts I have been reading it seems like there are alot of pregnant ladies here. I wonder exactly how many? Maybe we should have a section devoted to our Moms to be. :wink:
Glad to hear that this board has helped put that skip back into your step.
Best wishes.
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Hi Sleepy,
You wrote,
At the moment my name is like a rash all over the board and I'm trying very hard to tell myself that that is o.k..
Here, let me tell you, "That is OK." Your posts are wonderful; all bubbly and full of excitement. Please keep them coming.
Congratulations on the wee little sleepyhead! In a few months you are really going to be a sleepyhead, if your little one is anything like our baby mudpuppy was.
mudpup
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Sleepyhead, I understand about feeling like I post too much sometimes. I remind myself, that I don't post when I'm asleep (sleep-posting?) so I have to make up for lost time when I'm awake. :) I like to read other peoples posts too, they also have something to say that I never would have thought of, as well as saying something that I just "get" right away. And Portia, I have had that multi-posting before, but there are times when I'm so full of "stuff" that I'l post 2 or 3 times in a row before anyone else has a chance to read and respond. I say post away and anyone who is offended can read other threads. Except for an occasional troll, the people here are exceptionally considerate and conscientious(sp?).
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Hi everyone! I'm back and determined to keep posting shamelessly (or at least try) :oops: Thanks everyone for the congratulations! It feels good to be able to talk about to someone other than my fiancé.
I guess I wonder more than most people what my baby will look like, since I've never :!: seen any baby pictures of myself... We just have one photo from when I'm about one, then nothing until I'm about four. I asked my mother about it once when I was about ten and she said that they were on slides and that my dad had them. So I asked my dad about it on my next visit (they divorced when I was three), but he just laughed and said that my mother had them. :? I didn't know what to think, so gave it up as a lost cause for many years. But on my graduation my mother all of a sudden had a photo from when I was one!? Were did she get that? I doubt that she got it from my father since she hasn't spoken to him in years. Then I asked her again last year, and she said I couldn't see the slides b/c she didn't have a projector (she had one the first time I asked, and now she's thrown it out, note: it was not broken). I guess she "forgot" that "my father has them"! :evil: Anyway, when we go back home, I'm just gonna take all the slides and have them converted to photos. :D
Cadbury:
Congratulations! Although I have already said that in a pm!
Thanks! I must have logged out right before you posted (I'm not even in sync with the people in my own timezone :roll: ) My first pm! As far as your concern over the hot cross buns, no need to worry, so far the only thing I crave is fruit and veg. My baby will probably be the healthiest baby ever! :D
It is hard to express empathy in type without sounding like a sanctimonious idiot
Well, you must be doing very well , b/c you don't sound like any kind of idiot to me! Quite the opposite actually! 8)
Portia:I feel kinda privileged that you told us the good news, the board’s a strange wonderful place isn’t it?
It sure is! And I feel priviliged and very, very lucky to have found it!
Brigid:Sort of like "love means never having to say your sorry."
Ooooh, yes! And that one is even on greeting cards!? :evil:
miaxo: Yes, tyhere are a lot of pregnant ladies here, maybe b/c we see a need to sort through this s##t before we become parents, so that we can finally break the cycle! :D
Mudpup: Here, let me tell you, "That is OK." Your posts are wonderful; all bubbly and full of excitement. Please keep them coming.
:oops: :oops: You're making me blush! Don't stop! :D
Longtire:I remind myself, that I don't post when I'm asleep (sleep-posting?) so I have to make up for lost time when I'm awake.
Well, considering the time difference, I can post when you are asleep, and vice versa, that way we can cover a lot more time! :D [/quote]
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Wow Sleepy,
The baby picture thing I don't get. :?
Maybe someone who understands N better than me could explain it.
A control issue with you or your dad? A desire to hide from her failure of a marriage? Trying to set you against your father?
These people are so freakin' weird it makes your head spin sometimes. :roll:
mudpuppy
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I don't get the baby picture thing either.
But it does bring to mind a bizare incident I had years ago with my ex MIL. One of the rare times we stopped by her house she handed over Ex N's baby book to me. She was clearing out her attic and didn't want it and gave it to me to take home. Anyway, outside of a few comments here and there the thing wasn't even filled out. As I turned to the last page I read an entry journaled by ex MIL that read, "After returning home from a family vacation "X N" received the beating of his life for dumping milk in the refrig." Apparently, X N ran into the refrig to take a sip of milk before the family departed for a week long vacation. He mustn't have capped the milk or something b/c it leaked in the refrig and the smell was atroscious. At the time of the beating, X N was only two years old. Who in their right mind would have beaten a two year old and then document it in a baby book??? Especially since all the other slots were empty for such things as baby's first word....baby's favorite food...etc.
To top it all off ex MIL described the beating like it was normal. It was not a run of the mill spanking either. (Beating done by X N's father)
That was one of my first warning signs that X N came from a whacked out family.
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I don't get the baby picture thing either.
There are no pictures of me under 18 months. Lots of my two brothers as babies, including Christening pictures, but none of me. Earliest one I have is not a portrait, just an accidental picture of other people, and I am in the frame.
I have always thought this is because I was not wanted. Mum says that she thought she could not get pregnant while still breast feeding my older brother (who is only 18 months older than me). I suspect there may be a darker subtext involving coercion, with me the end result. This is not the only such story in the family. My maternal grandfather is rumoured to have used the same tactic (two children after a gap of six or seven years) with my grandmother to force her to play the game.
With one baby mum could have escaped what was already an unhappy relationship. With me, she was stuck. Doesn't explain the lack of pictures, except if you remember the purpose of N pictures; to show everyone how happy the family is. No point in documenting an unfortunate episode. Ie me.
Also, throughout my daughter's childhood, there has been not one single comment from either my mum or dad about my daughter having anything in common with me - you know, the usual, 'you used to do that' comments. Not a single one. I might as well have been adopted at 8 years old for any acknowledgement that I was theirs.
There seems to be a fundamental denial of the reality that I was there, and that I had an identity. And in fact, I had none, and still don't. Eventually I became my brother's sister, and was tolerated as such, with comments about how close and inseparable we were. But 'I' did not exist.
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October, I am sorry about your baby pix (or lack there of). I have very few baby pictures of me....just a few individual ones, some of which we are not even sure which kid it is. But happily, it's because there were 8 siblings above me, and time for "special photo sessions" was rare, and money was even rarer. I know I existed, however, as there are several pictures of the entire brood, and tons of really funny stories. Now you birth order folks can have at me me, right?
Not trying to make light of any pain, I hope you know. Just mindless dribble (youngest of nine :shock:)
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October, a more serious response (sorry)
You certainly "exist" here and this "place" is no "place", really, and your presence is felt and noticed. That's something, isn't it? I'm sad your mom was so stupid (that's what it is). You're pretty cool, though, and your own daughter will not lack!
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October, a more serious response (sorry)
You certainly "exist" here and this "place" is no "place", really, and your presence is felt and noticed. That's something, isn't it? I'm sad your mom was so stupid (that's what it is). You're pretty cool, though, and your own daughter will not lack!
Yes. Lots of pictures of my daughter as a bouncing baby. Blackmail material for years to come. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
I am not sure whether I am here or not. But something/someone is. I suppose. :?
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October
I enjoy reading your posts. I can feel your individual personality coming through them. Like Mum said, you do exist here.
Shame on your Mother!
Mia
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October,
I am not sure whether I am here or not. But something/someone is. I suppose.
If you're not here then someone else is using your handle to write some very wonderful posts. I always look for your's because I'll know they will either be poignant, very funny or usually both.
Yes. Lots of pictures of my daughter as a bouncing baby. Blackmail material for years to come.
My daughter already is planning to destroy the video I have of her tearing through the living room in just her shower cap at age three.
She doesn't know there are copies safely hidden away. :twisted:
mudpup
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Yes. Lots of pictures of my daughter as a bouncing baby. Blackmail material for years to come.
My daughter already is planning to destroy the video I have of her tearing through the living room in just her shower cap at age three.
She doesn't know there are copies safely hidden away. :twisted:
mudpup
Thanks. Hiding away day today, but thanks.
Love the thought of the video show in years to come!!!!!
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I feel like October in the way that I was not supposed to exist. I don't mean that they didn't want a baby (I am seven years younger than my sister, so there's little risk of "accidentally" getting pregnant), but perhaps they simply didn't want me. Maybe there aren't even any pictures of me, and that is why she won't let me see the slides? Because, seriously, she's had thirtytwo years to either get the slides converted to photos or at least show them to me once. But I actually believe that it was just "too much of a hassle" for her to set the projector up, and that my baby pictures were nowhere near important enough to her to keep the projector (why would you throw out a working projector when you have slides that you need it to see???). For a long time I actually thought that I was adopted or "stolen", until I was old enough to recognise my physical resemblance to both my parents. Oh, well, when I next get home, I'm not going to ask, I'm just going to take the slides and then I'll know if I was even worth wasting film on!
Not in the best of moods today as you can probably tell. I've been reading "Trapped in the Mirror" again, and all my rage is starting to surface. It is funny, I thought I had already gone through the "anger phase" since I started rebelling against my mother in my teens and have rebelled ever since. This was before I knew that rebellion is just another form of enmeshment! I suppose that it is not until now that I can see what she really did, and that she must have been aware of it on some level, so now I can get really angry. And I am furious :evil: :evil: :evil:
One example: When I was thirteen my hair started getting really greasy, so I started washing it every day. My mother noticed this and immediately started teasing/bullying me: "Why are you washing your hair every day? I bet you're in looooveee! Sleepyhead's in looovee, Sleepyhead's in looovee!" God, I wish you could hear the tone of her voice! Anyway, I stopped washing my hair every day, because I was going to get bullied in school anyway, and I preferred to be (overtly)bullied in just the one place, thank you verymuch! It is not until now, almost twenty years later that I asked myself: "How come she noticed that I was washing my hair every day, but didn't notice how greasy and stringy it was?" She must have noticed! Why would she do that!? Maybe she was jealous? After all, she always went on about my blond hair (neither my parents nor my sister are blond), but as a child I wasn't allowed to have long hair like my sister had. We lived in a huge house in a nice neighbourhood, but I got to wear hand-me-downs and cheap supermarket clothes. Now I'm even getting paranoid about my glasses! I was so nearsighted that I couldn't see what the frames looked like on me, so my mother would chose. I always put her awful choices down to bad taste, but maybe it was on purpose? I guess I will never know...
Anyway, I can see clearly for the first time, that everything was truly about her, every single thing was to further her own agenda. She hardly ever paid any attention to me except to criticise, forced me to play piano for years after I told her I didn't like it (I guess it was "posh"), but refused to let me dance ballet (she said it was unnatural). The way she behaved at PTA meetings was just to draw attention to herself, she didn't care about the embarrassment and extra bullying it caused me. She didn't even notice that I was bullied all the way through school. Everything was about her getting attention and possibly praise. I remember in kindergarten, I was perhaps three or four, the parents were there for some reason (first week?). The teacher asked if we knew how children were made, all children wre of course embarrassed, but my mother quickly says: "Sleepy knows! Tell them Sleepy! Come on, you know how babies are made, tell them!" Me, of course, going quiet and shaking my head furiously, too embarrassed to look at anyone. Lately I've noticed that she is even in competition with toddlers. When my niece turned one, one of her birthday presents was one of those boxes where you are supposed to put the right shape in the right hole. My mother "played" with her granddaughter in the following fashion: Niece would pick a piece up and try to put it in a hole. Mother would immediately grab the piece from here and say "no, it doesn't go there, it goes here!" and put it i the right hole. She would then beam with pride of her accomplishemnt and the satisfaction of being smarter than a one year old! :shock: Meanwhile, my attempts to explain that the whole point of the toy is to learn through your own experience and your errors fell on deaf ears.
Hmmm.... I'm starting to get something that happened in my last bout of therapy. My therapist told me that I should think of change as in the way a child learns something new, learning little by little, making mistakes and try again and again until I got it. I didn't understand what she meant. I had no memories of that sort of learning. I've alwys felt that I have to be brilliant at something the first time I try it. Oh, well, I've got to stop venting this now (for a while at least), otherwise I'll keep writing all day and noone will have the patience to read my post.
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Sleepyhead,
Oh, well, I've got to stop venting this now (for a while at least), otherwise I'll keep writing all day and noone will have the patience to read my post.
Sounds like you're having a breakthrough to me so write and vent all you want. You are certainly not trying my patience and are helping me to get to some of my own buried pain when reading your deepest thoughts and hurts. How do mothers do this to their children? I will never understand it.
Keep digging Sleepy, you're getting there. :) :)
Brigid
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My God October and Sleepyhead, I’ve just read your posts and I’m almost fuming, for both of you, and for me. But I’ll keep it short. And clean.
October
There are no pictures of me under 18 months. Lots of my two brothers as babies, including Christening pictures, but none of me.
Can you see the question in the bubble over my head? It’s one of those really practical questions that no-one likes to ask. So instead I’ll just say, this isn’t right. At least I didn’t have any siblings so very few photos is okay. But if there were ones of brothers and none of me, ouch, that knife twists. :evil:
Also, throughout my daughter's childhood, there has been not one single comment from either my mum or dad about my daughter having anything in common with me - you know, the usual, 'you used to do that' comments.
Telling isn’t it? Do you know what was happening when you were a baby? Were your parents struggling to live with each other? Have you ever asked your Dad say, if your daughter is like you were as a child? Tried to get him talking about it? (I guess that might not exactly be easy.) Do you feel there are things you don’t know – I do, and very slowly I’m piecing some of the past together. I wonder.
Sleepyhead
I thought I had already gone through the "anger phase"
it cycles, like a pencil drawing of a twister, starting at the widest part. Shock-anger-denial-acceptance-sadness-shock-anger…etc I think that’s the route? I think I’ve accepted and grieved and way-hey, another shock hits me and I’m angry again. But it gets easier each time, the shock is less, the anger doesn’t last so long, until, I guess there’s more sadness and acceptance than anything else. I don’t know. But I know I do keep re-cycling though those emotions. It’s almost funny observing it happen in me.
When I was thirteen my hair started getting really greasy, so I started washing it every day.
my greasy hair at 12 was like I’d poured fries/chip-fat over it! But I wasn’t ‘allowed’ to wash it more than once a week (that was so stupid and cruel). I used to hear jokes made about my hair at school.
My mother noticed this and immediately started teasing/bullying me: "Why are you washing your hair every day? I bet you're in looooveee! Sleepyhead's in looovee, Sleepyhead's in looovee!" God, I wish you could hear the tone of her voice!
Would you believe I can hear it? I can hear it. I’m angry for you.
Maybe she was jealous?
Ab-so-lute-ly. Yes, for sure. And she still is. Because she’ll always be older than you. Same with me. (No, I’m not jealous of you!) My mother is jealous of me, of me simply being younger. Nothing I can do about it. :?
She would then beam with pride of her accomplishemnt and the satisfaction of being smarter than a one year old!
Older by about one year. I do sympathise. It makes me sick. Mine does this, the flourish having done something really simple. It’s not nice to see a 2 year old in an adult body. It’s unnatural and somehow creepy.
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Lately I've noticed that she is even in competition with toddlers. When my niece turned one, one of her birthday presents was one of those boxes where you are supposed to put the right shape in the right hole. My mother "played" with her granddaughter in the following fashion: Niece would pick a piece up and try to put it in a hole. Mother would immediately grab the piece from here and say "no, it doesn't go there, it goes here!" and put it i the right hole. She would then beam with pride of her accomplishemnt and the satisfaction of being smarter than a one year old! :shock: Meanwhile, my attempts to explain that the whole point of the toy is to learn through your own experience and your errors fell on deaf ears.
This is so familiar. My mum does this all the time. My daughter got a Boggle game (word puzzle) the other day, but mum wouldn't play with her (didn't want to risk not winning!). So daughter played with her grandad, and mum kept coming over to her, taking the pen out of her hand, writing a word down, with a really smug look on her face, and then giving the pen back.
She doesn't get what games are for at all. To her it is about scoring points, and as you say, even over children.
Ns have to be perfect every time, and win every time. If not, they won't play at all. They prefer to watch smugly from the sidelines, content that if they did happen to join in, they would be sure to win.
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Can you see the question in the bubble over my head? It’s one of those really practical questions that no-one likes to ask.
Do you mean the question 'was I adopted?' No. Because children who are adopted are wanted. Worked that one out long ago.
Too similar in looks to my dad to be anyone else's. Not sure I am related to my mum, though. :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Phew! I'm glad you said what I was thinking and
Too similar in looks to my dad to be anyone else's. Not sure I am related to my mum, though
isn't that the oddest thing? I know you're joking but...I still have to check the logic for my maternal line being biological...
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I know you're joking but...I still have to check the logic for my maternal line being biological...
Who was joking?????? :lol: :lol: :lol:
Perhaps we are changelings. Fairy children placed in the cot by the elves, and the human children stolen away. 8)
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Hi Portia, October - no, you would both be "lingchanges". Human babies put into cradles in place of the monster spawn, and left to be raised by monster parents.
Gotta get that polarity right.
Hugs to you both
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October,
Perhaps we are changelings. Fairy children placed in the cot by the elves, and the human children stolen away.
I can't believe you said that. I was thinking that exact same thing when I was reading this thread and often thought I was a changeling in my home.
I always wondered why I was so different from my parents and brother in the way I felt about things, the way I reacted to things and how I expected people to treat one another.
Thanks for saying that.
Brigid
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Stormchild:
Hi Portia, October - no, you would both be "lingchanges". Human babies put into cradles in place of the monster spawn, and left to be raised by monster parents.
Yeah, I can relate to that. There is probably some magic involved to make us look like the monster parents?
Brigid:
Sounds like you're having a breakthrough to me so write and vent all you want. You are certainly not trying my patience and are helping me to get to some of my own buried pain when reading your deepest thoughts and hurts.
Thanks, I am still worried about taking too much space, taking people's time, but i guess if they don't want to read it, they don't have to, right? Knowing that I might be able to help someone in some small way makes it easier though. :) Plus, this is my "job" at the moment, even my f says so when I feel guilty about not doing enough housework. He says that he benefits from it as well, not just from me feeling better, but from me being able to help him better with his problems (we can both be "people-pleasers"). Anyway, better stop talking about my f, otherwise the troll that was here the other week will come back and say that I'm boasting :wink: .
Portia: Our mothers must be related somehow... Well I do have relatives that emigrated to America (as it was known then) a few hundred years ago... Or maybe there is a special, secret school for Ns somewhere, where they go to learn how to best freak us out and how to mess with our minds as much as possible :idea: . I still don't get the hair thing though, on the one hand I'm not allowed to wash it, on the other hand she is sooo proud of having a blond daughter, almost as if it a her private accomplishment. (Yes, I waited until an egg carrying the blond gene had matured, and then I made sure that it selected a sperm that also carried it. Wasn't that clever of me?!) :roll: And she really freaked out when I dyed my hair dark, I can tell ya'. (I'm really getting into my americanisms here, I pick up accents even in writing :) ). I really feel for you with the hair thing, at least I was allowed to wash it every other day. What comments did you get? I was once asked (very sarcastically of course) if I used a special comb to get my hair so "stripey". Oh, god, I just realised, due to her job, my mother usually showers twice a day! And I wasn't allowed once a day!!!Grrrrrrr!
Glad to hear you can hear her voice, that you know how bad it was, I was afraid that writing didn't really convey it, and you would think I was whining about nothing (I know, I should know better by now, but unlearning is a slow process).
It’s not nice to see a 2 year old in an adult body. It’s unnatural and somehow creepy.
Mmhmm... It sure is. I've seen my mother whine/scream in a high voice, without words, fists and eyes squeezed closed, stamping the floor with one foot! This is pretty scary when you yourself are a child but would never behave that way.
October: Sorry to hear you had the same experience with the pictures. Very un-motherly, don't you think!? I know what you mean with the game thing. My mother would always brag about how good she was at chess, and would always want to play with my stepfather, whom she knew she would beat. However, she always refused to play with me. I wanted so much to learn and to share that with her, but I guess she wanted to keep her position as the chess-player of the family, afraid that I might grow up to beat her. As a child she would let me beat her at games, but always make it really obvious, I guess never playing for real meant never having to risk losing. :roll:
At risk of beating Longtire's record for longest post (actually I think there is one under "unanswered posts" that is longer, but I sure don't want to make it that long :shock: ), I want to share a memory that has been haunting me for years, it hurt me really bad and did a lot to make me the person I am today.
I am eleven, and we are at my grandparent's house. Being a total readaholic (escapism anyone?), I have found a book that I'm reading. To fully get the story (not for me to brag), you should now that I learnt to read, by myself, when I was four and started reading books when I was five. At eleven I was reading around ten books a week (very healthy behaviour, I'm sure), both adult and children's books, whatever takes my fancy. This particular book happens to be a book written for teenagers. My mother walks past and out of the blue (we hadn't talked for hours, no falling out or anything like that), says, in a very angry and hostile voice: "Why are you reading that shit! When I was your age I was reading the classics!" And keeps walking. I am left, stunned and hurt, my reading was the one thing I really loved, and the one thing I had always felt proud of. And she had always bragged about it/encouraged it in the past. She made me feel that my accomplishments were worth nothing. That whatever I did was never good enough. :cry: This led me to believe (and not in a hidden belief either, but up front and unquestionable), that if I was not a genius, I was worth nothing. And that is a feeling that I have been wrestling all my life.
Two comments, things that have struck me later in life. One: My mother grew up in the middle of nowhere, in a family that was even bigger than mum's. I serously doubt that there was any way for her to have come into contact with any "classics" apart from the bible, and she is very strongly anti-religion (her parents were very religious), so I doubt that is what she meant. Two: These days she talks about Marian Keyes as if she's Shakespeare, don't get me wrong, I like Marian Keyes (and Shakespeare), but she is no closer to being one of the "classics" than the book I was reading that day.
Hope you don't think I'm bragging about the reading thing, :oops: for me it was really no more than a survival mechanism, I had to find a world where i felt accepted, where I felt I belonged. I have been saying for years that I didn't grow up in any particular geographical location, but rather that I grew up in books. They were my only home and my closest friends. :cry:
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My mother walks past and out of the blue (we hadn't talked for hours, no falling out or anything like that), says, in a very angry and hostile voice: "Why are you reading that shit! When I was your age I was reading the classics!" And keeps walking. I am left, stunned and hurt, my reading was the one thing I really loved, and the one thing I had always felt proud of. And she had always bragged about it/encouraged it in the past. She made me feel that my accomplishments were worth nothing. That whatever I did was never good enough. :cry: This led me to believe (and not in a hidden belief either, but up front and unquestionable), that if I was not a genius, I was worth nothing. And that is a feeling that I have been wrestling all my life.
Did you ever see the Disney classic, "Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs"? (yes that's how it's spelled in the movie) Your mom is the evil queen. She said what would destroy you because she was bitter and envious of your innocence and youth. Period. There were no classics. She is full of crap. It was all an impulsive wish to damage an innocent girl, as I imagine she was damaged earlier. You know, the witch didn't come out too well in that story.
bunny
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bunny,
Funny you should mention Snow White, Sleepyhead's name has always reminded me of Sleepy the dwarf but I never wanted to say that for fear of offending her.
Anyway Sleepy you sound more like Snow White than a dwarf. :wink: :D :wink:
Sleepy,
Did your mom have a mirror she spent an inordinant amount of time in front of? :wink:
mudpup
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Mudpup:
Did your mom have a mirror she spent an inordinant amount of time in front of?
Yes, and I alwas wondered why she was talking to an inanimate object! :shock:
Actually, no. She was so convinced of her own greatness and beauty that she didn't need no stinkin' mirror to tell her that! By the way, she never listens to what anyone says anyway, so why would she need a mirror's opinion? :wink: :roll:
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Hiya Sleepyhead, as far as I can tell my ancestors are English but I reckon there’s some Viking in there, but there’s Viking in many so…yes, from and in the UK!
And she really freaked out when I dyed my hair dark
Good :D As soon as I left home I pierced my ears and dyed my mid-brown hair very blonde – yay! I think kids at school thought I never washed my hair. That story about her crowing over you, doing a nyah-nyah thing about you being in love coz you’re washing your hair –that’s not a small thing. It’s a mother deliberately trying to make her daughter embarrassed and basically mocking you. Bullying. Horrible. I know you’re not making light of it, but then again, have you felt the full force of it? It’s nasty and destructive. Would you do that to any child, let alone your own? That’s a good test: think ‘would I ever do that? Would I ever say that?’ and re-think just how bad it was. It was bad. I’m sorry. :(
This led me to believe (and not in a hidden belief either, but up front and unquestionable), that if I was not a genius, I was worth nothing. And that is a feeling that I have been wrestling all my life.
Your mother is such a sham. I don’t have your trouble, almost the opposite, led to believe I was pretty dumb but ‘bad’ with it. Have you had your genius level checked? :D Okay, IQ is only one measure of our brains, and a pretty limited one at that (anything designed for military use has to be limited?). If you haven’t, here are some tests (not just IQ, that would be boring wouldn’t it!) , including more trustworthy timed tests. Fun if you take them seriously! http://www.healthyplace.com/site/tests/psychological.asp#intelligence
Take care.
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No point in documenting an unfortunate episode. Ie me.
I'm so sorry for the hurt that you and others who feel so unwanted and unloved have expressed. I feel such sadness to think of it. :( And angry!!! :x
It makes me want to go over there and shake your mothers and say:
"Wake up !!! At least love your own child!!!"
Unfortunately, that would, as my H puts it, blow right through because both the barn doors are wide open".
Hey Mothers who don't love your children.....the barn doors are wide open and the wind is blowing right through!!!! And what a stench is coming with it!!!
Anyway, to Portia: I did some of those tests and I am pleased to announce, regardless of what some A's may have said to me, in the past, I do.........have an IQ!!!! 8)
GFN
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Sleepyhead, thanks! I've just come back from local bookstore. Went and found 'Trapped in the Mirror' to read, because you mentioned it here. Otherwise I wouldn't have known about it. Way 8) because... I'm in the States, you're across the pond, is this board neat or what?
Anyway, there's a coffee shop in the bookstore, so I sat down to read a bit, but only got thru the intro chapter, not into the deep stuff yet. Came on home for that. Thanks again. I'm really glad that troll flushed you out of the forest and into the light here.
hugs
storm
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Sleepy,
Anyway, better stop talking about my f, otherwise the troll that was here the other week will come back and say that I'm boasting .
Who cares what a troll thinks? They live under bridges cause nobody can stand to be around them. :x
You can talk about your f all you want. There's some pretty feisty people her anyway, (bunny, in particular, can be a real beast. :lol:) so I don't think the trolls enjoy it too much. They just lurk under their bridges. :roll:
Hope you don't think I'm bragging about the reading thing,
Go ahead and brag. Teaching yourself to read at four is quite a feat. :wink:
mudpuppy
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Sleepyhead: You write beautifully, and your early reading had loads to do with it, I'm sure. I, too, ache for your childhood...and adolescence is hard enough even with an emotionally safe home! Your mother was jealous of her child. That is unnatural, not ballet!!! My second husband was jealous of my children. Thos people have simply never grown up (Ns!!!) We are not married any longer.
I have a friend, who is pretty N, and pretty messed up, who graduated high school at 15, was an engineer and then an MD. A real brain. Her mother was a trip, and now she is. She used to read non stop and she recalls her mom walking by her, smacking her in the head as she went by and saying: "get your head out of that blasted book!"
When my friend was diagnosed with luekemia last year, her mother told her that her friends (like me) were helping her out now, but they would get sick of her soon enough and she would be on her own. What a crappy thing to say, especially from a mother. Wrong, just wrong.
Her mother told her that coming to see her in the hospital had put her "life on hold", so my friend needed to pony up some money to help her parents pay their property taxes (like that's related...they are retired). Her stories are like yours, but although she is aware she comes from such dysfunction, she is still not able to recognize anything wrong with her, or at least not enough to find out what it is ("therapy never works for me... they don't know what they are doing".)
This woman is also my "yoga" friend (don't know if you saw that on a thread last week) and having been gone a year for a bone marrow transplant, it's kind of hard to put my boundaries with her in place. (she is "well" now).
But I do, and things are better. Told her I didn't want to go somewhere with her tonight and she accepted no for an answer. Progress.
Her mom, though, and your mom, forget it. Just enjoy your life.....sounds like a good one.
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Portia: Thanks for telling me the hair thing is not small. It's so easy to fall into that old trap isn't it? "Well, it wasn't that bad, I should just let it go...Quit whining...." It was bad, and quite freaky and scary as well, seeing my mother behave like that.
I don’t have your trouble, almost the opposite, led to believe I was pretty dumb but ‘bad’ with it.
Well you seem very intelligent here! I always enjoy your posts, and often I will have answered a post, then you answer the same one, and I think "That is so much smarter than what I said!" Anyway, yeah, I had my IQ tested and it was quite high :oops: , sorry, just feels a bit weird talking about what I'm good at. But it doesn't really matter, even if my IQ was over 200 and I had won a Nobel prize for something or other, it would still never feel enough. As a kid I was always good in school, always the top of my class, but I never received any praise. Just criticism when I was not perfect, and I was always told I should study more :( . So when I hit my teens I had stopped enjoying doing well, I didn't study and my grades dropped a bit, dropped even further in high school, because I just never studied. My mother had killed the joy of learning. But I got some of it back at university though :) , when I could study completely "useless" subjects, just for my own pleasure! Still, it's tough for me; part of me want to do really well to please my mother, part of me hates being defined but what I accomplish and so refuses to do anything. :?
GFN: Welcome back! I agree with you: shame on unloving mothers! (By the way what does GFN stand for? If you want to tell that is. In my head it reads like "Good For Now", which sounds kind of positive, like you, and like a confirmation that all is well.)
Stormchild: Yeah and you probably didn't have to wait four weeks for it... :wink: But have you looked at the reading list? It has loads of good books on it!
Mudpuppy: Yes, I like the way that trolls are dealt with on this board, that is what finally made me feel that this is a safe place!
Go ahead and brag.
Thanks, but I still find it very hard... :oops: Every time I want to say something that is good about myself I feel as if I'm my mother, bragging endlessly, often about things that aren't even true. :(
mum: Yes, I read about your "yoga friend" (or should that be yoga "friend"?). It was kind of an eye-opener toread that she said that you were being childish (or something like that), just b/c you didn't want to do what she wanted to do. When I didn't want to do what my mother told me, I was "lazy", and to this day there is a myth in my family that I'm lazy (but ask any of my old bosses, and they will tell you that's not the case).
Glad to hear that you like my writing, although I think that what I write here is always so messy, since it's so emotional, full of paretheses and subclauses, difficult to follow. Or maybe it just feels like that because that's what it's like in my head. Messy that is.
Anyway, I didn't post yesterday, busy and tired, so it felt so great to return to the board and see that I wasn't at the bottom of the page! My sister phoned me on Thursday night and I ended up telling her about the N stuff. I've been meaning to e-mail her about it, but it's a bit scary you know. She has also known that our mother (and father) were weird, ever since she was a kid. (What clever kids we were! :wink: ) She did try to tell me that she thought mother cared for me though, just trouble showing it, but I know she means well. She seemed interested in the N stuff though, thought it fitted pretty well, so I mailed her some. But now I have a question, since I want to keep this place to myself (well not to myself, that would be pretty boring, but away from her if you know what I mean), so are there any other really good sites out there? You know, or can guess, which ones I don't like... :roll: So do you have any tips? I would much appreciate it!
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Hi Sleepyhead and everyone:
By the way what does GFN stand for? If you want to tell that is.
It stands for: Guest For Now
In my head it reads like "Good For Now", which sounds kind of positive, like you, and like a confirmation that all is well.
Well thankyou so very much for saying such a nice thing Sleepyhead. I really appreciate it.
I think of you as a positive person too and I feel very embarassed :oops: because in my haste to rant about the hurt caused by feeling unloved by one's mother, I forgot to say:
CONGRATULATIONS!
And all the best to you, your fiance and little-one-on-the-way!!!
That is wonderful news and I am very happy for you!! :D :D
GFN
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Sleepy,
Every time I want to say something that is good about myself I feel as if I'm my mother, bragging endlessly, often about things that aren't even true.
I know this is easy to say but you aren't your mother. Have you told us some accomplishment that wasn't true? Have you told us something to present yourself as better than others or better than you think you are? I didn't think so.
I slip into the same thinking without even knowing it. I apologize too much out of habit, not even because I think I have done something wrong. I do it unthinkingly. I think its because subconciously I don't want to sound like an N mindlessly and endlessly boasting. GFN kindly pointed out to me I was apologizing a lot awhile back and she was right, I hadn't even realized it.
So go ahead, as they say, its not bragging if you can do it. :wink:
so are there any other really good sites out there?
The only other boards I have found are either very inactive or dominated by weirdo losers. There may be some good ones I have just missed. Maybe someone else has found one.
mudpuppy
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GFN kindly pointed out to me I was apologizing a lot awhile back and she was right, I hadn't even realized it.
Hi Mudpuppy:
I thought I was pointing out that you appologize sincerely and that that is a good thing. That N's never appologize because they never do anything wrong and therefore I see you as not having that N behaviour of not ever appologizing. I must have said all that wrong. Now I am sorry for not being clearer. Truly.
I apologize too much out of habit, not even because I think I have done something wrong. I do it unthinkingly. I think its because subconciously I don't want to sound like an N mindlessly and endlessly boasting.
You don't sound like that to me and I doubt to a lot of people here. I think I do that too sometimes. Maybe it has something to do with dealing with so many who do behave like N's and who do as Patz wrote: (hope it's ok to copy this here Patz. It just hits the nail for me):
Ns will use any excuse to project on to you so you can be the "guilty" one. This way they can get out of any responsibility for their part of the relationship.
So when they do so, we feel guilty and so appologize. This happens over and over until it becomes a habit?
Maybe breaking the habit has more to do with really looking at all of that closer?
I sure am thinking about this today because I know I've been projected upon, big time, and this is helping me to realize that I have taken more than my responsibility for my part of the relationship. Thanks again Patz.
GFN
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GFN,
I thought I was pointing out that you appologize sincerely and that that is a good thing.
As I recall you thought I was saying 'sorry' an inordinant amount. And that I was possibly unsure of my own thoughts. It was one of your 'challenging' posts. It would be too hard to find it at this point.
But in any event, for goodness sake don't apologize for it. You were right on the money. You recognized a pattern I get into and pointed it out to me. Those, for me, are the most helpful and appreciated posts of all. (((( )))))s are nice, but a little objective truth is better. :wink: Different people need and appreciate different things. I said it in some other thread; if someone had come along ten years ago and had the guts to tell me, 'your being a total sap' I would have been saved a lot of grief and money.
Thanks for telling me what a sap I am! :lol: :wink: :lol:
I wrote,
I think its because subconciously I don't want to sound like an N mindlessly and endlessly boasting.
You wrote,
You don't sound like that to me and I doubt to a lot of people here.
I'm afraid I wasn't too clear on this one. I don't think I sound like an N. But I think I subconciously launch preemptive strikes by apologizing to prevent anyone from perceiving me as N like.
Now I am sorry for not being clearer. Truly
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You've gotta stop saying your sorry. :wink: Your posts are always thoughtful and you always have the grace to put your suggestions in the form of questions, which is a very gentle technique.
Thanks.
mudpup
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Mudpuppy:
Is this what we are referring to?
I wrote:
I think you are tentative about what you say, and I have read your occasional appologies to others here. I've even seen you write things indicating you feel stupid....which makes me wonder if you're trying to say you feel unworthy sometimes too.
I doubt Brigid is giving you a complex, even in a sisterly way. I bet she was pointing out how strong you seem, in many ways, and what a great big brother you make!!!
From pg 3 of the thread "Voiceless Newbie Scared and Talking too much"
And you later responded:
When I apologize here it is usually because I tell a bad joke or often because I have said something that on reflection I think I shouldn't have said. I do have a tendency to say things that are insensitive sometimes, not intentionally but they're still insensitive.
Thats where the stupid thing comes from as well. I don't mean dumb as in a low IQ, I mean not thinking before speaking, or emotionally oblivious to someone else's position.
In this thread, you wrote:
As I recall you thought I was saying 'sorry' an inordinant amount.
Mudpuppy, I wasn't thinking that at all. I was trying to point out that I do think you appologize sincerely but I didn't voice all the other thoughts I was having such as:
...That N's never appologize because they never do anything wrong and therefore I see you as not having that N behaviour of not ever appologizing...
And I wish I had.
Anyway.....no appologies required by either party, ok?? :D
GFN
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GFN, you go with those quotes!!!! :D
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GFN,
Is this what we are referring to?
Yep, thats it, and that's more work than I was willing to do to dig it up. :D
Anyway.....no appologies required by either party, ok??
Spiffy! :wink:
However I stand by what I said. I appreciate posts like the one you dug up, and profit from them. I just want to make sure you don't think I was offended in any way. I want to make sure you know you can speak your mind, without any needless sugar coating. I hope I can do the same for you.
God bless you GFN, like many others here, you're 8) .
What a healthy feeling place this board is. There are only three places as healthy feeling for me, my home, a few friend's homes and outdoors. Every place else is infested to some extent with Ns or some other malformed creature from a Bram Stoker novel. :evil:
mudpuppy
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GFN, thanks for the congrats, don't worry about them being late, it's appreciated anytime! :D
GFN & Mudpuppy: It is so good to see two people being so careful with each other's feelings, working so hard at making sure they understand and are being understood. I keep being reminded of what a great place this is. :)
Anyway, I had surgery on my hand today, so I'll be brief (for a change). Do anyone know of any good info-sites (not necessarily message boards), I don't want to give Dr. Grossman's to my sister since that might lead her here, and I'm a big, yellow, fluffy chicken. :roll:
Another question: There was a discussion a while ago about people using "you" and "I", and what that signified. My mother tends to refer to herself in the third person. She used to call herself "mummy" when she talked to me, no matter how many times I told her that you only do this to small children (she was doing it when I was 25! :shock: ) Since my sister had her kids she refers to herself as "grandma", sometimes even when the kids aren't there! Anyway, has anone else experienced something like this?
(Hey, I'm getting pretty good at typing with my left hand!)
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Another question: There was a discussion a while ago about people using "you" and "I", and what that signified. My mother tends to refer to herself in the third person. She used to call herself "mummy" when she talked to me, no matter how many times I told her that you only do this to small children (she was doing it when I was 25! :shock: ) Since my sister had her kids she refers to herself as "grandma", sometimes even when the kids aren't there! Anyway, has anone else experienced something like this?
(Hey, I'm getting pretty good at typing with my left hand!)
Hi Sleepyhead
Sorry to learn of your surgery, glad you have gone thru it now and can begin to heal -- (((Sleepyhead)))
Oddly enough I have some "good" third person memories. And of course bad ones too, but let's do a good one first. My dad's mother loved me. Really loved me. And I stayed with her when my sibling was born, and every night when she tucked me in, she'd kiss me on the forehead and the last thing I heard was, "Nana loves you." Do you know, I can still hear her, and see the bedside lamp on the table in the little room I slept in.
One of the recurring bad ones: After Ileft 'home', when my Nmom would call, if she got voicemail she'd almost always say, "this is your motherrrrrrrr..." the rest of the message was usually uninformative, since the purpose was to manipulate me to call her. Do you know, it was more than 40 years before I realized I cannot remember her naming herself to me as anything other than 'your motherrrrrr'. Never Mom, mommy, mama, etc.
I got other good 3rd person stuff from my Edad (dad, pop, the Olde Buz-zard - second syllable rhymes with lard - yes, he wanted to be called this, he got a kick out of it, but then again I'm not telling you what his tease nicknames for me were..! We came out about even on this, and yes, thank God, I loved him). But never from my Nmom.
Well, now that I've sprayed self-disclosure of God knows what all over this post, what does the third person mode of address mean? :? Can you point me to the thread (so I can die of embarrassment and take down everything I just put up here)? :shock: :shock: :D
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Ns will use any excuse to project on to you so you can be the "guilty" one. This way they can get out of any responsibility for their part of the relationship
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In a recent email X N projected onto me his inadequacies as a parent. He told me that I was a terrible parent to our son and have done nothing but ignore him. This from the man who wanted son to be aborted, was so disappointed when I didn't miscarry that he flew into a rage, left the marriage b/c he didn't want to deal with another child, and who has been completely uninvolved in son's schooling and activities. I simply wrote back to him, "this is a text book example of projection." Not that it will do any good with a N and I'm sure he will be writing back to tell me that I am the one projecting.
Geez!!!
Mia
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Well, now that I've sprayed self-disclosure of God knows what all over this post, what does the third person mode of address mean? Can you point me to the thread (so I can die of embarrassment and take down everything I just put up here)?
They never actually mentioned it, which is why I brought it up here. Maybe it means nothing. I'm glad you had good experiences with it, but hopefully these people would sometimes refer to themselves as "I"?
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In a recent email X N projected onto me his inadequacies as a parent.... I simply wrote back to him, "this is a text book example of projection." Not that it will do any good with a N and I'm sure he will be writing back to tell me that I am the one projecting.
YESSSSSS!!!!!!! :D :D :D 8) 8) 8) 8)
Mia, YOU ROCK!!!!!!!!! 8) 8) 8) 8)
Let the poor dolt spew his venom. Who was it? Patz? Mud? Bunny? someone said - that's what we get antivenin from.
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Well, now that I've sprayed self-disclosure of God knows what all over this post, what does the third person mode of address mean? Can you point me to the thread (so I can die of embarrassment and take down everything I just put up here)?
They never actually mentioned it, which is why I brought it up here. Maybe it means nothing. I'm glad you had good experiences with it, but hopefully these people would sometimes refer to themselves as "I"?
Definitely, for sure. Yep. The good 3rd person stuff was tease-talk or affection-talk, or 'hi this is so and so'.
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Hi Sleepyhead, thanks for your kind words.
My mother had killed the joy of learning. But I got some of it back at university though , when I could study completely "useless" subjects, just for my own pleasure! Still, it's tough for me; part of me want to do really well to please my mother, part of me hates being defined but what I accomplish and so refuses to do anything.
I don’t have an average IQ either but I only found that out very recently. I thought I was pretty dumb because people didn’t understand me. I don’t think being ‘clever’ is necessarily a good thing if not balanced with emotional understanding, compassion, the ability to empathise (high IQ people with very low emotional understanding are those most likely to be cruel and manipulating of others). Also clever people do not get rich! I think that’s true anyway – if you look at wealthy powerful people, they aren’t all that wise it seems. Not that being wealthy is that important, it’s the power over other people that stinks. How did I just get there? Oh yeah, how we view ourselves and get a warped view of our own abilities from our parents. I was so zoned out during childhood and continued at uni where I studied one useless subject – useless in terms of career, great in terms of practising logical thought. Nothing I could do now would please my mother, she’d be too envious if she cared at all. I have just myself to please really and that seems so little. Boo-hoo. :D Sorry. I’m refusing to do anything right now, except be here, cook and clean for the man who lives here (why do I do that? I don’t depend on him and yet some of my attitudes belong to my mother’s generation), think a lot and wonder what it’s all about. The more I think, the sadder it gets. I’m tired of being angry and that’s a relief. But anyway! Who asked me about my day? :roll:
Stormchild :D - self disclosure! Here’s some: I’m still not sure why, when I stayed with my grandparents every weekend as a small kid, why I slept with my Nan in a double bed and granddad slept in another room. Maybe I had nightmares and needed company? I have no idea. I remember so little it’s a pain. Or maybe not. Bring on the disclosure! It won’t hurt. It’s liberating I think.
Sleepy, I’m impressed by your left hand typing! Some N info sites:
http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/six.html
one of my favourites although not exactly ‘scientific’ but loads of food for thought
http://www.toad.net/~arcturus/dd/narc.htm
probably more scientific
http://www.mentalhealth.com/
(scroll down to Personality Disorders for NPD)
http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/p960235.html
article
http://www.psychotherapy.com.au/august00/featart1.html
http://www.ippnj.org/mcwilliams1.html
http://www.rickross.com/reference/brainwashing/brainwashing11.html
dealing with manipulative people in general
http://www.mtoomey.com/violating_liberating.html
‘good’ anger vs ‘bad’ anger
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Hi there Portia! Thanks for the tips, it feels so good to be able to show my sister info, rather than her just cruising the internet and coming across those not-so-helpful sites. Not that I think she can't judge for herself, but since I'm the one who introduced her to the concept of NPD, she didn't get to discover it herself and might be more likely to "get lost". God, even I can't really work out what I am trying to say, but I guess I just feel responsible? Actually I feel a bit guilty about telling her, isn't that weird? :? It's not that she thought our mother was sane or anything, but I guess I don't want to tell her about my crappy experience of childhood since she is older than me and feels very responsible for my happiness and feels a bit guilty about leaving home when I was eleven. As if it was up to her to be my parent! Obviously I don't agree with her there, but it just spirals into this endless spiral of guilt! :shock: :roll: Our mother taught us well how to shoulder her responsibilities.
But anyway! Who asked me about my day?
Listen girl: I like you very much, and I'm always interested in hearing what your day was like, whether it was crappy or good! :) You are my friend (at least from where I'm standing), and friends like to hear about their friends' days, ok?
I totally agree with you about intelligence not being worth anything in and of itself. If you can use it to help yourself and others, then that's good, if not, what is the point? To win money on Jeopardy? To lord it over others like an N? I think this is why I've rebelled so much against the praise of intelligence and ambition that my mother is so obsessed with. I don't care if I ever become rich and "successful", as long as I am happy and surrounded by people that I love and who love me. Not that this is any easier than becoming rich. :wink:
Any way, about your Nan, I can think of one explanation, but hopefully that is just my sick, twisted mind working. At least it would mean that your Nan was very concerned with your welfare. But it's probably just one of those weird things that we do and think are completely normal until someone tells us that it's weird. Hey, for most of my life I thought it was completely normal to interrupt people, I didn't realize that people could get offended by it. :roll: Oh, well, I know better now. Sorry for rambling on, but I don't have a job at the moment, don't know anyone here very well (except my f, of course, but he has a job), and pretty much don't have a life right now. Pathetic, huh? Plus, my hand is much better today (it really was just tiny surgery), so I'm back to boring you all to tears! :shock: :roll: :shock:
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Sleepy, you have TWO lives right now! :D Correction, not ‘have’ – you ARE two lives. That’s more than enough, that’s wonderful.
she didn't get to discover it herself and might be more likely to "get lost". God, even I can't really work out what I am trying to say, but I guess I just feel responsible? Actually I feel a bit guilty about telling her, isn't that weird? It's not that she thought our mother was sane or anything, but I guess I don't want to tell her about my crappy experience of childhood since she is older than me and feels very responsible for my happiness and feels a bit guilty about leaving home when I was eleven. As if it was up to her to be my parent! Obviously I don't agree with her there, but it just spirals into this endless spiral of guilt
How about you try telling her some of this, be honest about your feelings of guilt, responsibility and also about how you saw her as caring for you and how you want to thank her? Talking is good. Otherwise you could both end up needlessly worrying about each other through misunderstanding….
I'm always interested in hearing what your day was like
:D thanks sleepy!
You’re never boring Sleepy, and I’m glad you’re back to using both hands. I won't be able to keep up though!
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Oh, well, my name is already all over the top of the board, so I might as well post on my own thread again, I am getting to be completely shameless... Portia, I have tried to talk to my sister about these things, but you knoe it's hard to et rid of these stupid feelings after so many years of believing them. Anyway I e-mailed her yesterday and hasn't heard back from her yet, and I'm getting a bit paranoid. What if she can't see the N thing? What if she thinks I'm the crazy one? What if she hates me now? :cry: :oops: In my rational mind I now that this is probably not true... But I just feel so scared and stupid, like I probably imagined the whole N thing, that our mother is well-meaning, just misunderstood... That I'm the bad one... Blaming her for everything when it's really my own fault... Having a bad day I guess.
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Portia
Thanks for the wealth of information.
The more I can learn about N the better off I am. Information is my weapon against X N.
Thanks again.
Mia
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Mia, hope it helps, treat it all critically though!
Sleepy, you’re okay, this is normal thinking alright?
What if she can't see the N thing? What if she thinks I'm the crazy one? What if she hates me now?
She won’t hate you. If she thinks you’re crazy, you can blame the hormones! :D She might not see the N thing exactly as you do. Phone her up. Say, “I was worried you might think I’m nuts! It’s the hormones” (that gives her an opportunity to say, “well actually I was a bit worried…”). She may not see it your way, this is perfectly possible.
That doesn’t mean that you’re ‘wrong’ or she’s ‘right’. No two people ever see an event the same way, even in a family, especially in families, where people have different roles assigned to them. Please make contact with her and dispel today’s demons. And tell the board, coz people here do understand. It's okay if she disagrees. If she does, listen!
In my rational mind I now that this is probably not true... But I just feel so scared and stupid, like I probably imagined the whole N thing, that our mother is well-meaning, just misunderstood...
This is normal and usual too. Denial of overwhelming thoughts! It’s okay. But I’ve read your posts, as has everyone else, and we see it that you were emotionally abused. The N diagnosis is a side issue – the fact that your mother treated you as she did is abusive. Please understand that first! take care, P
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Wow Portia, thanks for the super links.
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...high IQ people with very low emotional understanding are those most likely to be cruel and manipulating of others)
Hi all:
Gee. I keep learning stuff that is so obvious I feel stupid. Portia! You're opening my eyes wide these days!! Thanks!
Sleepyhead:
...the fact that your mother treated you as she did is abusive. Please understand that first!
Ditto what Portia said.
:idea: You will not be doing that/repeating that when baby arrives!!!
You will be a great mom and you will do your best to show your child how loved and valued he/she is!!!
Please.....think good warm, loving thoughts for your baby and take lot's of time to relax and ponder how beautiful your child will be and the joy you will experience, once he/she arrives, and all the good things that come with being a mom and that the future of your new little family will hold.
I'm serious.
Hormones are one thing but aiming to achieve positive, happy, feelings by thinking good stuff can't hurt!!! :D
If any of this exploring/remembering etc. is upsetting for you, maybe it would be better to focus on it later? Just a suggestion because I want you to take care of you and baby to grow in as happy a place as possible. :wink:
Take care, (((((((((Sleepyhead)))))))))).
GFN
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Hi all and thanks Portia and GFN. I feel better today. I couldn't phone my sister yasterday, since she was at work, and I only have her home number. By the time she would have gotten home I had calmed down and started thinking rationally again. I'm going to give her some more time to reply, she is quite busy (work and two small children). I realized that I was getting paranoid b/c I expected her to react like an N, which is ridiculous, since she's not one.
Anyway, you have a good point GFN
If any of this exploring/remembering etc. is upsetting for you, maybe it would be better to focus on it later?
I thought of this as well, but then I think that I want to sort as much of this out as possible before the baby comes, b/c I want to be able to be a good parent. And when the baby is here I know I won't have much time to deal with the N stuff. However, the last couple of days I have been thinking that I really need to do other stuff as well, so I will make a real effort. It is really sunny today, so I think I will go down to the sea (it is only a couple of minutes away and I love it, so I really should go there everyday). I will keep reading and posting, but I will try not to let it take so much of my time.
Portia, I'm really embarrassed! :oops: A while back on this thread I forgot that you were in the u.k., and talked as if you were american. :oops: :shock: :roll: I think on this one I must blame both the hormones and my being blond! Plus the fact that every time I see your name I get this picture of Portia de Rossi from Ally McBeal in my head... :) Anyway, sorry! (Not that it's being bad to be American, just bad of me to forget this stuff). :D
P.S. The "halcyon" site is my favourite too, that's the one I already sent to my sister, I think she might prefer some of the more "intellectual" sites though.D.S.
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Sleepy
so I think I will go down to the sea
:D go! :D go now! :D I love the sea!
I wish about half of me was American sometimes. Don't be embarrassed, I like the idea 8) I've never tasted soft pretzels *wistful*
GFN is right, take it easy, let the hormones do their thing. And GFN, those IQ ideas come from my reading, they're not original thoughts, I'm not that bright (thank goodness?) :wink:
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Good morning all:
Hey Sleepy:
Great idea going down to the sea! Oh that sounds marvelous!! Take a breath of air there for me, will ya and soak up some of that sun too! That is truly wonderful that you can walk there in a couple minutes! Enjoy!! 8) 8) Truly enjoy today!!!
I want to sort as much of this out as possible before the baby comes, b/c I want to be able to be a good parent.
Sleepy, I don't want to sound like a know it all but the fact is there is no quick fix for all that happened to us as children and it's effects. It might take a long time to sort through and come to terms with.
You will be a wonderful parent, a very good mother... regardless.
How do I know that?
Because you want to so much and when people want something as much as that......they do all they can to achieve it.
And that's what I see for you.....doing all you can to be a good mother and you will be a great one! Believe this about yourself!!!
So please.....try not to get too upset while carrying your baby because it's important to strive for a positive emotional state in you .....which does send positive vibes to your baby and can have an effect on both of your health and well-being. 8)
Maybe.....read some parenting books, talk to other parents you admire, search for helpful info on the net, learn about child development and the best ways to help children strive and survive in this world, ways to enhance their emotional stability, nutrition, stuff about play, discipline, etc etc.
The more information you gather, the more you will find ways to be that good parent that you so want to be. It's not necessary to sort out all of your past right now.
It might even be best to leave it for a bit and focus on what you are going to do....rather than what has already happened.
I hope I haven't offended you. I do believe parenting is a skill that can be learned. And you'll have time to work on you too, along the way, which will help you to be the best you are able.
So enjoy the sea today and stop worrying, ok?
GFN
PS: Hey Portia....I think you're quite bright but not in that N-ish way at all.
Thanks for sharing what you've learned from reading. :D
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Portia: Yes! I went! It was great! :D
GFN: Yes, I know it's not so easy to sort myself out, I've already had three bouts of therapy (aged 18, 23 and 30), two bouts of antidepressants, and I still find so many new things to change and work out... I guess it never truly ends! But having recently discovered the N thing, I don't think I'll be able to just ignore it for now, however, I feel ready now to let it take a smaller part in my life.
We're quite lucky in being among the last of our friends to have children, so we have had plenty of time to watch the others and figure out what seems to be a good way of parenting (and what is not). Hopefully this has helped us. I'm sooo glad we didn't have children when my f first suggested it five years ago.
I talked to my sister tonight, and the reason she hasn't mailed me yet is because she hasn't finished the e-mail yet! We must be more alike than I thought! :D :shock:
Anyway, my f and I had some really good news the other day. He resigned from his job a few days ago, he really wasn't happy there, plus since I'm pregnant we want to move back home anyway. He had to give three months notice, so we expected to be here, business as usual, for another three months. Yesterday his boss called him to a meeting where he was told that it was company policy, since he hadn't worked there very long, that he be put on "gardening leave". So now he effctively has three months payed holiday! :D :shock: :D This will help me not to spend all day on the computer! :wink: :roll: We have to stay in the U.K. for almost two months (notice on the flat, etc.), so now we will spend two months exploring the countryside and all the sights! (Anyone in the U.K. want a visit? Just give me a shout. :wink: ) Just in time for spring as well... So, if I don't post everyday anymore, it is simply for good reasons, but I will keep in touch, just get away from the slight obsession and try to look at things more from a distance, a change in perspective is always helpful.
Talk to you all soon, hope you are all doing well (I've been so busy today that I haven't had time to read every new post :shock: :roll: :wink: ). Take care and go out in the sunshine as often as possible!
((((Everyone)))) :D :D :D