Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => What Helps? => Topic started by: Anonymous on January 19, 2004, 08:57:33 AM
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http://www.angelfire.com/zine2/narcissism/narcissism_caution_internet.html
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I beleive that there is almost always a reason for choosing and staying in an abusive relationship. Healthy people are not attracted to abusive individuals nor do they stay long. However that does NOT mean that it is the "victim's" fault that he/she is abused or that he/she deserves it...
I think the author has some points, but generalizes to much and does not accept that grown-ups are responsible for their choices...
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in many relationships.
Once you have children and are committed to providing the best environment for them: they love their fathers, who love them too ( even when messed up psychologically )
if you marry a successful narcissist there are inevitable financial and social implications to leaving your relationship.
Even if it is an abusive and destructive relationship for you it is naive to think that it is a simple choice.
It never is.
That's why I reccomend the Lundy Bancroft book: he is one exceptional professional and writer who can present all sides of this complicated picture.
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I think it is NEVER helpful to pathologize victims of abuse in any way....that is turning what really happens about-face.
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I see what you mean write, but I do beleive that those who are not personality disordered, and stay in relationships, also contribute to the children being abused, for example...
Silence, is in my book, agreeing :(
I beleive that staying in an abusive relationship in part has pathological roots and in part is because of "the Stockholm syndrome"...
These are not EASY choices but they are choices nevertheless... That does not mean judging those who stay, just accepting that it is in fact a Choice made...
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PS Of course I am talking only about adults (children are helpless in the face of abuse)!
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before I had children I would definitely have thought this- however they are NOT abused or showing any signs of neglect or abuse, but thriving and happy.
They don't particularly care whether Dad and Mom are happy! They don't even look at us in the context of separate adults yet, they are just happy in their little world and definitely do not want me to break it up.
Maybe they are more protected from the n-ism than in other families, we don't argue in front of them and we both listen carefully and respect- they definitely have their 'voice'.
My N partner is able to see them as separate, and to be a good father in many ways.
It's me who he doesn't see as separate, and to a lesser extent people who work for him.
the Stockholm Syndrome may apply to some abused women, but for me it's just a question of trying to make a good life for children; most good parents have to make sacrifices for the sake of their children.
If it was the other way and I had to sacrifice my marriage to save or protect my children- I'd do that too.
With a big big sigh, like now!
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I was not overtly abused by my dysfunctional parents - but I did inherit many faulty ways of relating and ended up choosing disordered partners when I grew up...
I beleive chances are small that children grow up to become emotionally healthy when something as serious as personality disorders are involved...
Children are very acute and do as we do, not as we say...
:cry:
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No family is perfect though, is it.
Many perfectly happy people grew up in strange set-ups, with alcoholic parents, mentally ill parents, sick parents, poverty...life is damned hard for most of the world's population.
We are lucky when our children get nutrition, warm safe home, books and learning, medicine, toys, holidays AND love.
But even the children who don't get all these things are not all permanently damaged in the way that a child whose self is denied or rejected from early days is, and sometimes I feel the more NORMAL and non-abusive from the outside that family appeared to others and to that child maybe the harder it is to understand or accept they were abused.
I believe that what affects children most is the level of honesty and genuine feeling around them, for ( extreme ) example, a drug-user could be a better parent by providing the child with genuine affection and letting them be themself, than say a christian environment where a child is told what to believe ( even if they don't believe it ) or a household where everything looks perfect but actually the mother resents and dislikes her children and gets at them in small imperceptable ways.
It is the denial of the child's real self, and the forcing on a developing mind of another's reality- effectively not allowing someone to develop their own reality- that does the harm to many people whose posts I have been reading.
that they can say to their parents angrily: these are my boundaries! or this is important to me! and STILL NOT BE HEARD, be dismissed, laughed at, even as middle-aged adults who have spent years educating themselves and often their families -inside their buried-child-self is unheard and disappointed each time it is ignored.
It is the fact that they grow up unable to trust their own feelings or even to know when they are in agony, for all the times someone has told them the opposite or insisted they should not feel and certainly not express those feelings.
I could go on about this at length, for injustices are often done by social workers who perceive children living in poor, smoky, cramped conditions to uneducated parents as obviously neglected even where they are loved and happy where a child like me- who could see what was done to me? It was as invisible as I subsequently became.
And my kids sure ain't that!
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Many relevant points, write, and I agree that many factors come into play...
But having a personality disordered parent (not in healing) DOES mean that the family environment & lack of true self in the parent will undoubtedly injure the child more than in a "normal" population.
Some kids are "sturdier" and will survive it, while more sensitive ones will sometimes become severely disturbed themselves...
Rationalizations may help against the shame/guilt the non-disordered parent feel, but I do not beleive it is in the childrens' best interest... :cry:
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oh well I'll put them up for adoption then...
This is not helpful, it's like telling someone who gets lost- oh, you never should have gone that way!
The fact is they are here, he is their Dad and always will be, they love him and he them and it's about finding the best way to manage that for us all.
Identifying the narcissism is a big help, but the issues are the same if the problem was schizophrenia or alcoholism or cancer. No one chooses those things either.
This is my last word on the topic because I feel rather baited here and wonder just who is yanking my chain...
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I'm sorry that you feel baited and cannot accept a difference in opinion without feeling "yanked". Perhaps the strong affect in you suggests something?
I stand by what I think and I've been thru a lot myself and I know I cannot undo certain things. But one thing is for sure, as an adult, I AM FULLY responsible for the Choices I make in my life.
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"oh well I'll put them up for adoption then... "
Very black and white thinking... :cry:
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edit
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Thanks Portia :)
But we also have to learn how to deal with differences of opinion and not throw the baby out with the bath water.
Healthy conflict is part of life & I am not going to be silenced, as long as I express myself repsectfully!
Hugs!
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I am sorry I upset you Portia, I know this is a very healing community. And it works- I have learned much here and been able to express my pain to other people who understand it. I am empowered. but I wouldn't like the process of finding my voice detract from anyone else's.
Better expressed, my point is that the children nevertheless are here, they are being parented by two damaged people. We never understood this before, we never planned life to be like this. But we are doing our best. And our kids are loving, healthy, happy, intelligent, humorous, sociable, adaptable...people who know them like them very much. We like them very much. This is one-sided because I am speaking for my partner...but I am certain he feels the same, in fact it is because I know he does that our marriage still exists.
I felt baited as any parent does when they are criticised- yes, that is a knee-jerk reaction....but believe me I am a conscientious parent and went away and examined what people said, and discussed it with my therapist.
It's strange, but so much of my anger and frustration has evaporated since I learned about narcissism, and was able to stand back and see the whole picture, not just the version through my experience. I have a higher level of acceptance and insight now.
I understand now that trying to make my husband change his narcissism is abusive of me...if simultaneously I can't accept who he is and if he cannot respect my basic relationship tenets in spite of the narcissism...I need to make different life-choices.
I don't know if my marriage is doomed but my family definitely isn't: there is much love and laughter here and we can work through things, whether we all stay living together or not.
My husband does trust me, especially where the children are concerned, and he is still coming to terms with the narcissism himself. Maybe he will come to a point that he will do some therapy. But there is a mutuality which will be the foundation for whatever we decide, and that is our love for our children.
My therapist pointed out that there are degrees of narcissism, that the narcissist is still an individual with a mix of qualities. One of my husband's qualities is undoubtedly he is a good father, even when it pains him because of his narcissism. I asked the therapist if I am in denial saying this, she said, are you? She thinks that the children would show signs of being damaged, and she agreed that no family situation is perfect, the damage comes from ignoring things or not being honest etc. We discussed what qualities make a good parent and how families deal with trauma.
My children are not old enough to discuss personality disorder, or their parent's relationship problems, but I did ask my son is he happy. He was very clear: yes.
Finally I don't post this to justify myself, but as closure for a part of my healing process. The next stage is to see how we can live with the narcissism and I intend to research that fully, to see what can be done to help us all.
And that is where the thread started really, because much of the internet advice about how I as N-partner should treat my narcissistic husband is inaccurate and unhelpful and would turn me from being a warm, open, caring & growing human being into a harsh, dishonest, projected angry false self...and doesn't that sound familiar?
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Thank you for your final post here write. It is full of fascinating insights. Good luck with your research. I hope you find what you need.
Thank you Argusina for facilitating the conclusion of this ‘stage’.
I have learnt from both of you. P
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It can be difficult to tell the difference between someone who was seriously affected by a narcissitic family and someone who actually has Narcissistic Personality Disorder (where I've been told "disorder" implies that it is so deeply a part of their makeup that they can never recover).
As close as I have been on the inside of narcissistic families I still can not determine for sure whether the NPD label applies or not - even in the face of extreme abuse and drug addictions.
Even if one parent truly has NPD if the other one provides protection, a voice and attention to their children they could be as "normal" as most families. If there are "normal" families I haven't seen many.
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Thank you all - I learned a lot! Read everything with great consideration. I think healthy conflict is totally okay and can even be invigorating :)
Hugs to all
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'Write', would you please e-mail me privately? Susannah4Yah@Yahoo.com
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The fact remains that the children will continue to have contact with the NPD parent regardless of the marital status of the parents. The non-NPD parent must make a decisions as to the wisdom of staying in the relationship and having the ability to moderate daily life for the kids, or to break the relationship and not be able to moderate the interaction with the NPD parent.
Tough choice.