Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Emotional_Cripple on November 18, 2004, 10:28:38 AM
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I have been struggling with an issue concerning NPD. My father is definitely a narcissist and undoubtedly has caused me great emotional harm. However, the literature I have read indicates that narcissist’s traits are all designed to protect their weak egos. In other words, they have become this way because of faulty parenting. Therefore, they know no other way to act and behave. Thus should not be blamed for their actions. It is akin to blaming someone who is depressed for being sad. So my question is, should we pity them for their “disease” or should we hate them for what they have done to us.
I know that some out here may claim that all I am doing is absorbing his hurtful feelings as this is the way I have been programmed. However, this is a very important issue in recovery. We need to know whom to blame before we can start to heal. If it is that he has been injured and this is all he knows, then I can live with it, accept it, adjust and move on. However, if he is aware of his actions and chooses to be this way, then I have no problem hating him for what he has done.
Clearly this is a major step in recovery. It is the jumping off point so to speak. Your insight into this issue would be greatly appreciated.
Emotional_Cripple
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In other words, they have become this way because of faulty parenting. Therefore, they know no other way to act and behave. Thus should not be blamed for their actions.
The Ns in our lives know better. Heck, everyone knows how a loving family should be. Afterall, they've all seen those shows on television, Little House on the Praire, The Waltons, Father Knows Best, The Cosbys, etc. They've seen other (not on tv) examples of normal loving families. Ns aren't stupid either. Actually, narcissists are pretty smart and devious. So you really can't say that the Ns dont know how to act and behave. They choose not to behave in a loving way. They choose not to have empathy, nor do they seek therapy to become better parents. They know it is wrong to beat their children, or to let them be molested, and do nothing. Narcissists own their actions, and know right from wrong.
You don't have to hate or pity a narcissist, if you don't want to, just get the hell away from them. Personally, I rather hate my Nmom.
Moonflower (too lazy to sign in)
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Hi EC,
should we pity them for their “disease” or should we hate them for what they have done to us
I can fully relate to these mixed feelings of hate and pity towards a parent. But as you are at the beginning of the process, do not go too fast... For now you may have :
-validated your knowledge about the disorder (here on the board, through a therapist?, through books..).
-due to this validation, fully felt/acknowledged your new feelings towards the abuse. You may feel a mixture of anger “should we hate them” and love/underlying guilt “should we pity” (and other feelings that you expressed n your pevious post). You expressed this ambivalence in a right manner.
We need to know whom to blame before we can start to heal.”
Now that you have felt this terribly painful ambivalence, you may feel the need to get rid of it. I think understanding (which is different from fully accepting them) the roots of your father’s behavior is part of the healing process.
But you may try to do it in a detached manner, i.e. wait a while so that these feelings may erode a bit, so that you may see the picture less in black and white...Again, keep in mind that you have just discovered about the disorder and that it may take some time for you to find “comfortable” feelings/attitudes towards him and towards yourself.
So to answer your question, maybe the best way to draw the line b/w his responsibility and the predetermination of his behavior is by patiently investigating (carefully/in a detached way) about him, his background, i.e. by directly asking him questions and asking questions to your Mum and other members of your family.
But you may first feel the need to see a therapist to assit you in achieving this “detached state”. IMHO, I would not start a “direct investigation/confrontation” right now, it may be too painful, as you may not feel prepared enough.
BTW
-what other books beside NPD books have you read so far?
-how would you feel about seeing a therapist to assist you in dealing with these overwhelming emotions?
-ResilientLady
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Hi EC, I find it tempting to look for concrete, factual reasons for other peoples' behaviour. It would be so easy to say right/wrong black/white but what's in peoples' heads doesn't seem to be that simple.
So rather than say yes or no, can I ask, which answer would you prefer and why? That your dad is ill, or that he's behaved wickedly?
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You've brought up an interesting subject, EC. I know I flip flop all the time on how I feel about my Nmother. Like Seeker said, it is possible to carry both feelings at once, in my case anger and pity. I finding that the more I learn about NPD, the less anger I feel. Which is not to say that I feel inclined to justify what NM has done, but I feel much more detached from it than I would have thought possible. My problem was that before learning that NM actually has a personality disorder, I believed that I was the total screw-up that she made me out to be. Now I can see that although that is her perception, her perception is distorted. Not just about me, but about many other things. So I'm NOT what she perceives. I'm fine and I don't need her to agree with that to accept myself anymore. Very liberating. Good luck on your journey!
Singer
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EC, Great topic.
I think the N is responsible for his actions. Yeah, he has a mental illness. Yeah, he's cognitively distorted. Yeah, he is limited in his capacity for awareness.
Still.
Any adult has to be held accountable for their behavior. If he's not mentally retarded, he's responsible for abuse he perpetrated. Period.
Will he ever take responsibility? No.
So it usually boils down to how to strategize dealing with this difficult, abusive individual, and with your own feelings at the same time.
bunny
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I get a lot out of what you say, Bunny. Cut, dried and to the point. Fits in with where I am at this afternoon: ANGRY!!
For the first few weeks of our breakup, I had a meltdown -- cried more than I have ever in my life -- and felt sadness and pity. After a few more weeks, some participation in this board, a few counseling sessions I now realize the magnitude of my predicament and how fully my ex-N-fiance impacted my life.
Right now my obsessive mind is reeling with...what a jerk...what a jerk...what a jerk.
Sorry for the rant.
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I would venture to say in your case, your achievements are/were a threat to your father and in his mind had to be eliminated. Sort of the male version of Snow White. How scary for him that you are still alive in the forest.
Awesome metaphor, Seeker. The "child-like, innocent" part of his father (EC =symbol of this), of whom the father is deeply ashamed, is still alive in the forest. --my interpretation
bunny
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Like others have said, very good topic. It's the golden question. Illness or will? Maybe a bit of both. Maybe pathology (i.e. diagnosed NPD) helps shape/influence will and intent. And if the quality of a person's will & intent is coming out of a pathological mindset, then what can we say about it? :?
I don't think N's are non sick people with just an evil will (or they wouldn't be diagnosed N's). I think their will & intent is born out of their illness. In some cases they might be so far gone & self absorbed that they are not able to see the hurt they are causing others (psychopathic N's can't), and in other cases they may be very aware that what they are doing will be very hurtful to someone. When they are aware, I think it is in the nature of their disorder not to care in terms of their getting what they need being more important than the hurt they know they are causing someone else is.
At any rate, I think one can hate the disorder, the behaviors and personality of the individual displaying it, and yet still pity that person with it...
Of course, pitying, like forgiveness, does not mean allowing that person in our lives to continue to wreak havoc. One might feel pity, and still wish for zero contact with N person.
Some people will be at a phase where they just out & out hate the N's they have come across in their lives, and my feeling is that there is no judgement either way. You feel how you feel at any given time when someone has done horrible things to you. Sometimes one might be at a particular stage where they need to vent out and work through anger.
In the end, each comes into their own conclusions that may or may not change over time, and are hopefully left with someting that feels right for them.
But like Seeker says, I think ambivalence will be there until like Resilient Lady mentions, you can sort out for your individual case what you feel is the driving force behind the behavior of the particular N in your life.
Best,
BT
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Self-educating, investigating on Nparents is the way to find peace. And not get stuck in anger and/or pity.
As Singer beautifully explained:
the more I learn about NPD, the less anger I feel. Which is not to say that I feel inclined to justify what NM has done, but I feel much more detached from it than I would have thought possible.
As Seeker wrote yesterday about GENEALOGY to Dr Grossman (in “bump, bump, bump” post):
it was really valuable also because it explained so much about who my parents are and why they have the attitudes they do
And as BT finally wisely sumarized :
one can hate the disorder [..], and yet still pity that person with it.
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oops!! :oops:
Forgot to log in.. that was ResilientLady :wink:
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oops!! :oops:
Forgot to log in.. that was ResilientLady :wink:[/quote] this time i know the login worked!!! :lol: :lol:
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What an assortment of replies. Thank you all very much for enlightening me.
First, a quick answer to ResilientLady as to which books I have read, in no particular order:
Toxic Parents
Children of the Self-Absorbed
Why is it Always About You
Lots of material here and I am still trying to absorb, analyze, and implement. Obviously, I am overwhelmed at this point. It is like I have finally discovered a magic pill and am still waiting for it to take effect. I am also anxious to begin living MY life again. Though I guess I haven't really been living my own life for decades and am not quite sure what that feels like.
Back to the original question. I feel a great deal of anger from several posters and sense that their views are that these people know what they are doing and don't care. They are adults and should know better. I am not sure that just because you pass the age of 18 you should be considered an adult. In fact, many argue that these people are just children in adult bodies. I see a great deal of this in my father.
The directions that I personally have found helpful are the ones proposing understanding. Like Singer said, the more you understand the less the anger. I think this is enlightening. Understanding should bring a detachment. Not necessarily a physical or mental detachment from the person. But instead along the lines of hate the disease but pity the individual.
My conclusion to this dilemna is to neither hate nor pity. Instead I believe that I will just be ambivalent. He is as he is and that is too bad for him. I can not sacrifice my life, and that includes my feelings, for someone who has no feelings for others. This liberates me but I know it will take time to fully implement. I am a very empathetic individual and can feel the suffering of total strangers. There have been times when I have been brought to tears by just seeing someone who is suffering even though I have absolutely no attachment to whatsoever. Therefore, to turn this off where my father is concerned will be very difficult. But I think it can be done. Where there is a will, there is a way. The ultimate conclusion is that I will not use my emotional capital in a relationship in which there is no reciprocity. Though I will not hate him, I will not pity him either. It works for me at this point in time. I hope I can make it last.
Emotional_Cripple (EC)
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Back to the original question. I feel a great deal of anger from several posters and sense that their views are that these people know what they are doing and don't care. They are adults and should know better. I am not sure that just because you pass the age of 18 you should be considered an adult. In fact, many argue that these people are just children in adult bodies. I see a great deal of this in my father.
These people certainly have adult parts to them, otherwise they'd never be able to function in the adult world. They manage to control themselves around certain people. So I see them as immature, childish, but they can be adults when they choose to. They make choices all the time. There are some Ns who are very, very severe and their choicemaking may be more limited. But that doesn't exempt them from responsible child-rearing. I'm not angry about it but I have strong feelings of protectiveness toward children at the mercy of adults. I guess I identify with children.
People have many feelings about their parents, including hatred and pity, and these emotions may last two seconds or they may be persistent. I think any feelings toward parents are okay. It's more about how to act on them. An N parent acts impulsively. A more aware person does have the capacity to reflect, detach, and think before acting.
bunny
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I think THE HARDEST thing in my relationship with my NM is the ambivalence you've all described. Call it what you want: love/hate, approach/avoidance, pity/ acceptance. The bottom line is that my feelings are never on a steady course. One day she gores me and I can't stand being in her presence another minute, and the next day she's sick (again), weighing 100 pounds, looking like a refugee under her blanket, and my heart goes out to her. Since the most natural thing in the world is for behavior to follow feelings, sometimes I feel like a Jekyll and Hyde.
lThe one thing I've noticed after 3+ years of therapy, reading, etc. is that my feelings don't vacillate as wildly or for as long. The path still has ups and downs, but not as extreme anymore.
Hang in ther everybody.
Stillstanding
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Hi EC,
Thx for letting me know about the books you have read... I read books not only about N b/c I wanted to have a bigger picture about psychic disorders/behaviors. Here is how I proceeded:
-First, like you did, I read a few books about Narcissism and N parents:
I have read two of these books: Toxic Parents (which I found excellent, though it did not convince me about the state of my parents), and Why is it Always About You, which did not teach me much, I was a bit disappointed by it. The other book about Nparents’ impact on their children I read is : Trapped in the Mirror, which I found by far the very best book about the subject. I had also started (before) learning about N by reading stuff on Sam Vaknin web site, which I found a good source too.
-Then I read books about abuse, to get a broader perspective :
1. The Verbally Abusive Relationship: How to Recognize it and How to Respond
2. The Secret of Overcoming Verbal Abuse: Getting Off the Emotional Roller Coaster
3. In Sheep's Clothing: Understanding and Dealing With Manipulative People
4. Controlling People: How to Recognize, Understand and Deal with People Who Try to Control You
Basically they define very precisely what is abuse (emotional and verbal abuse, v. Physical abuse), and they give very good tips about how to handle abusive situations/behaviors.
N°1 is a classic, that spells exatly what is abuse. N°2 is maybe the best to handle difficult abusive situations, it is written by A.Ellis, one of the Behavioral Psychology approach. N°3 is very good to detect “covert” abuse (v. overt abuse, which is easier to detect). N°4 is by the same author as N°1, and is also pretty good.
These books teach you how to respond adequaletely to abusive situations. They helped me alot, b/c once I knew how to detect these abusive behaviors and how to respond to them, I had less fear, therefore less anger b/c I knew I could respond and not only react. Now I even happen to laugh inside (sometimes!!) when I notice these behaviors.
-Then to strengthen my “defense strategies” I bought a few books about boundaries. They were also very helpful b/c I felt reassured about my individuality, and not only in a confrontational context. I bought two books by the same author : Boundaries Where You End and I Begin, and Where to Draw the Line: How to Set Healthy Boundaries Every Day. I foound the first one a bit disappointing but the second was pretty helpful.
-Then I bought books about three other personality disorders: BPD (often related to NPD), and passive-aggressivity, and codependence (which is what those living close to N may suffer from)
1.Women Who Love Too Much ;
2. Stop Walking on Eggshells.
3. Living with the passive-aggressive man
4. Codependent no more
I found N°1 excellent (mostly about P/A, codependents, a little bit about N), not only did it explain my past relationships, but it also helped me understand the dynamics of my parents as a couple. N°3 is also pretty good. I found N°2 very disappointing. N°4 is a classic and is really good too.
-Finally, as to “feel better” after after having all these books, I focused on developping a more healthy self, through the books :
1. Ending the Struggle Against Yourself
2. When Misery Is Company: Ending Self-Sabotage and Misery Addiction
I found both of them really good to help me regain a whole/more integrated/more genuine self. Very soothing after the “roller-coaster” I had experienced through the reading of other books.
I had also bought a few other books about ending being a victim which were not helpful to me, I would focus on my pain, and get either more depressed or more angry, w/o any “solution” in sight... One exception: Stalking the soul. But I would not recommend it for a beginning.
You may keep in mind that some of these books may have a real deep impact on your psyche (therfore be careful :shock: about what to read and when to read it). This is why I read them in the order I wrote the list: start with the “tough” ones and end with the soothing ones...
These basic things I happened not to “naturally” learn years ago, I could discover them through books... (even though I am aware that book learning will never replace life learning). It works for some people, it does not for others. :)
For my part, these books helped me understand. And not get stuck in fear/anger projections... It may be difficult at the beginning to really distinguish b/w setting healthy boundaries towards N (assertiveness) and (un?)controlled anger (aggressivity). But (again) I think it is a matter of time... :wink: and understanding boundaries (one's and others').
PS I was wondering, did you think about seeing a therapist (if I may ask again) or maybe that is too early?
Take care,
-RL
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Hi EC,
Thx for letting me know about the books you have read... I read books not only about N b/c I wanted to have a bigger picture about psychic disorders/behaviors. Here is how I proceeded:
-First, like you did, I read a few books about Narcissism and N parents:
I have read two of these books: Toxic Parents (which I found excellent, though it did not convince me about the state of my parents), and Why is it Always About You, which did not teach me much, I was a bit disappointed by it. The other book about Nparents’ impact on their children I read is : Trapped in the Mirror, which I found by far the very best book about the subject. I had also started (before) learning about N by reading stuff on Sam Vaknin web site, which I found a good source too.
-Then I read books about abuse, to get a broader perspective :
1. The Verbally Abusive Relationship: How to Recognize it and How to Respond
2. The Secret of Overcoming Verbal Abuse: Getting Off the Emotional Roller Coaster
3. In Sheep's Clothing: Understanding and Dealing With Manipulative People
4. Controlling People: How to Recognize, Understand and Deal with People Who Try to Control You
Basically they define very precisely what is abuse (emotional and verbal abuse, v. Physical abuse), and they give very good tips about how to handle abusive situations/behaviors.
N°1 is a classic, that spells exatly what is abuse. N°2 is maybe the best to handle difficult abusive situations, it is written by A.Ellis, one of the Behavioral Psychology approach. N°3 is very good to detect “covert” abuse (v. overt abuse, which is easier to detect). N°4 is by the same author as N°1, and is also pretty good.
These books teach you how to respond adequaletely to abusive situations. They helped me alot, b/c once I knew how to detect these abusive behaviors and how to respond to them, I had less fear, therefore less anger b/c I knew I could respond and not only react. Now I even happen to laugh inside (sometimes!!) when I notice these behaviors.
-Then to strengthen my “defense strategies” I bought a few books about boundaries. They were also very helpful b/c I felt reassured about my individuality, and not only in a confrontational context. I bought two books by the same author : Boundaries Where You End and I Begin, and Where to Draw the Line: How to Set Healthy Boundaries Every Day. I foound the first one a bit disappointing but the second was pretty helpful.
-Then I bought books about three other personality disorders: BPD (often related to NPD), and passive-aggressivity, and codependence (which is what those living close to N may suffer from)
1.Women Who Love Too Much ;
2. Stop Walking on Eggshells.
3. Living with the passive-aggressive man
4. Codependent no more
I found N°1 excellent (mostly about P/A, codependents, a little bit about N), not only did it explain my past relationships, but it also helped me understand the dynamics of my parents as a couple. N°3 is also pretty good. I found N°2 very disappointing. N°4 is a classic and is really good too.
-Finally, as to “feel better” after after having all these books, I focused on developping a more healthy self, through the books :
1. Ending the Struggle Against Yourself
2. When Misery Is Company: Ending Self-Sabotage and Misery Addiction
I found both of them really good to help me regain a whole/more integrated/more genuine self. Very soothing after the “roller-coaster” I had experienced through the reading of other books.
I had also bought a few other books about ending being a victim which were not helpful to me, I would focus on my pain, and get either more depressed or more angry, w/o any “solution” in sight... One exception: Stalking the soul. But I would not recommend it for a beginning.
You may keep in mind that some of these books may have a real deep impact on your psyche (therfore be careful :shock: about what to read and when to read it). This is why I read them in the order I wrote the list: start with the “tough” ones and end with the soothing ones...
These basic things I happened not to “naturally” learn years ago, I could discover them through books... (even though I am aware that book learning will never replace life learning). It works for some people, it does not for others. :)
For my part, these books helped me understand. And not get stuck in fear/anger projections... It may be difficult at the beginning to really distinguish b/w setting healthy boundaries towards N (assertiveness) and (un?)controlled anger (aggressivity). But (again) I think it is a matter of time... :wink: and understanding boundaries (one's and others').
PS I was wondering, did you think about seeing a therapist (if I may ask again) or maybe that is too early?
Take care,
-RL
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:oops: WHHOOOPPS.... I thought the post was not long enough :mrgreen: , I needed to post it twice :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
Sorry for that.
Does anyone know how to delete a post or that is not possible?? :oops:
-RL
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Hi EC.
I, like Bunny, think Seeker's metaphor is "awesome." So, Seeker, if you are still around, thanks for that. Btw, I am sorry to see you go.
I don't think pity vs hatred...I think *what do I have to do to preserve my mental sanity around them?* I have noticed that pity is really a kind of disinterest. Hatred tends to have a boomerang effect. At this point, I think about what it is that I want. As long as I engage them with emotion, I feel I will always live under their shadow. So I make a personal effort to be compassionate yet unemotional in their presence and if they say something ugly or uncalled for, I laugh it off. My mother hates to be laughed at even though she loves taking the piss out of others.
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As has been said many times already, great topic. There are so many awesome posts here.
A huge point already made is that we need to do what works for us. Yes, I need to work on me and on what works for me. I can't change anyone else and I want to be in a comfortable, healthy state, so I must do/think what ever gets me toward that goal.
Some people might confuse this with selfishness. Some have been taught/programmed to think that it is selfish to do for self. It's not. It's survival and preservation. It's necessary in order to be of use to anyone else, so really, it isn't selfish at all. If we stay in an angry, confused, ignorant state, we are useless in regard to enjoying our life, or enhancing anyone else's, imo.
What feels best for me is pity/empathy above anger or hate. Understanding above confusion.
Knowledge instead of ignorance.
Kindness over unkindness.
Even if it makes me seem tolerant. Even if it is easier to feel anger and confusion and to act unkindly and not bother to learn or gain knowledge. What works for me is to try my best to overcome those urges to do what is easy and aim toward behaving the way I would like to be treated, even if it is more work and harder to achieve, than behaving in what seems the easiest way.
I might not do it all of the time because I know I will never be perfect and so sometimes, yes, ambivalence will come into play, anger will erupt, confusion will take over, but if I keep trying, I know I will get better and better at dealing with n-behaviour, and I will become more and more knowledgable, and it will get easier and easier to have pity, empathy, tolerance and to act kindly, in the face of the nastiness that guiles me and disrupts my healthy state. In this way, I will eventually learn to NOT LET the nastiness guile me and disrupt my healthy state. Then I will be able to sigh......awwwwwww....success!