Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Meh on April 10, 2012, 10:38:32 PM
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Is there a Nar communication style?
Mainly, here to vent.
My mother will ask me the same questions over and over and over again about very concrete things in the world that I have no power over so no matter how many times she asks me the information, its the same answer...but it doesn't stop her from saying it. She asks me questions and apparently she has no intention of listening to the answer. It makes me feel like she is trying to drive me insane. It's practically GIBBERISH. It makes it virtually impossible to really converse.
To me it feels sort of sabotaging that she chooses to speak to me in a way that is very difficult to respond to even though she is capable of other modes of speech.
Sometimes the answer is why ask why?
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Is there a Nar communication style?
Mainly, here to vent.
My mother will ask me the same questions over and over and over again about very concrete things in the world that I have no power over so no matter how many times she asks me the information, its the same answer...but it doesn't stop her from saying it. She asks me questions and apparently she has no intention of listening to the answer. It makes me feel like she is trying to drive me insane. It's practically GIBBERISH. It makes it virtually impossible to really converse.
To me it feels sort of sabotaging that she chooses to speak to me in a way that is very difficult to respond to even though she is capable of other modes of speech.
Sometimes the answer is why ask why?
Hi, Starlight.
Yes, I think there is. Another example that I've encountered is when an N asked me, repeatedly, to do something SHE wanted. I had already told her NO the first time, the second time, etc. and yet, she would continue REPEATING the identical question until I would finally lose my patience! What part of the word "NO" does she NOT understand?!?!?!? :? :P I couldn't help but wonder if the main reason she kept doing that was because she was hoping that my "NO" would MAGICALLY change into a "YES" for HER convenience!! It's AGGRAVATING when they REFUSE to respect what you have just said!
Bones
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Is there a Nar communication style?
Not knowing your mom... but having known a few Ns... my way of thinking of this, is that "communication" requires mutual, sequential talking & HEARING (not just pretending to listen - but really caring). And an Ns direct experience of reality only has room for, only includes, him or herself. Not other people... no matter who the other people biologically or relationally ARE. They go through the motions of pretending to converse.
It can be maddening. When it's a parent (or a child) - it can be terribly painful. The "trick" of the whole false interaction is that for whatever sick reason they have and the variety of ways they've discovered to play their trick... it amounts to the fact that they are sooooooo alone in their delusional world that they hardly even experience normal emotions... therefore, they interact with other people... and exhibit all these bizarre behaviors to provoke those feelings we all know so well... and they absolutely are trying to FEEL, themselves through stimulating that emotion. So when you feel targeted, picked on, purposely ignored after giving in to pleading for a meeting or conversation... they are getting what they want - or think they want. They're generating those familiar feelings of anger, frustration, invisibility and even sometimes despair so they can figure out what the feelings are... and sorta feel, by remote control. (I can't remember the word for that right now).
They don't even know they're doing this. Totally unaware. Even when your conversation is like a broken record: when the N repeats exactly the same phrases, words, and thoughts and you can spew forth the conversation verbatim before the words come out of their mouth... even if you do that to them... they might agree with you - but still have no consciousness that they've been saying exactly the same thing for years. This is their illness. And we absolutely can not, aren't capable of fixing them or getting through to them. (This has been true in my experience with Nmom, two different kind of N-ex husbands, and an Nboss or two.) If anything, I think we put ourselves in jeopardy and keep ourselves "stuck"... even trying to understand them.
So, I guess my answer is YES - there is a Nar communication style - but I still hesitate to call it communication.
But, vent away! My attempt to explain this is only my theory and one size doesn't necessarily fit all. And sometimes I find the only way I can get past the insanity is to vent. Lately, I've had plenty to vent about because it seems as though there's a pandemic of insanity to deal with, if I allow myself to read newspapers, magazines and watch TV.
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Is there a Nar communication style?
Hi Star. I definitely think there is, and it's something I've thought about quite a bit. As Phoenix suggests, CO-mmunication is not a good word for the process. It's more a one sided vampiric event with the N baiting an-other into providing them with attention and supply. The N knows the formalities of interaction but isn't able/willing to follow through with the substance.
An example from my FOO which seems similar to your experience: My father with initiate a mo-nversation by asking a couple of inane questions which he's asked a dozen times before. His attention span for the reply is a few milliseconds before the topic is flipped back to himself. So nothing about me ever registers. I am a perpetual stranger to him, but am expected to treat him as an intimate. So the relationship becomes totally one sided.
One of my ways of dealing with it is to keep them at arms length. As long as I don't expect them to function as more than strangers, I'm not going to be disappointed. I can seek more fulfilling interactions elsewhere.
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Something totally different that I've been thinking about the last couple of days is about personality types according to the Myers/Briggs model. Recently took the Myers Briggs personality testing and found out that according to this. (I'm not sure if I really answered honestly or not because I feel like I'm answering the personality test from a place of anger! But it came out that I have an INTJ personality type and females in this group are the rarest of all the groups. The INTJ are explained as being not very emotionally expressive and even disdainful of small talk.
It's all to in-depth to me since I'm not a psychology student. The question comes to my mind though if certain personality types are more likely to become Narcissistic or to develop certain types of personality disorder. Or maybe it doesnt matter. I'm sort of thinking maybe Introvertedness is a result of having Narcissistic parents but really it probably isn't because there are extroverts here on this board I think. Yet maybe HSP extroverts? Nah maybe not.
I have this deep down sad question that always says "who could I have been or who would I have been had things been different"
Also I wonder about the idea of the people who are (HSP) highly sensitive people. How Narcissism impacts these people compared to not HSP's. I really don't have the energy to properly study it. Seems to me like people who are effected by Narcissism come across as being highly sensitive (HSP).
And another comment. In the past I've had therapists/doctors say to me that anxiety and depression often go together as if they are both just part of a brain chemical imbalance. For the first time though I think I noticed a very clear sensation of waking up with anxiety (stress) because it hurts my stomach right as I wake up and then an ensuing type of response that is like depression but I don't call it that word.
Maybe it's simply too much stress = a type of physical/emotional paralysis of sorts. Sort of an emotional threshold point that is too much for the nervous system. Basically people who are "depressed" are sick just like having a flu. I don't think its caused by a chemistry defect thing in the brain. I think it is simple stress/distress. Isn't this very simple and how did this get sort of turned around into a congenital defect of the brain chemistry.
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Is there a Nar communication style?
As long as I don't expect them to function as more than strangers, I'm not going to be disappointed. I can seek more fulfilling interactions elsewhere.
:(
It's sad to me. I still feel like a little kid that can't fully accept this.
You're right communication is some kind of convergence. It has the co- in there. Co-operate, co-op, commune. Community.
I would say that is how it is, the inane questions, like maybe 5 words worth. Maybe it's all they can remember from prior conversations due to the attention span problem. And yes I have at times said to my mother that she seems like she has ADD.
People who are good conversationalists IMO almost have this ability to create a psychic space that is spacious. Like the room actually feels like it contains more air particles or something, there is something expansive and dimensional. An open communication process compared to a closed communication habit.
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Is there a Nar communication style?
Lately, I've had plenty to vent about because it seems as though there's a pandemic of insanity to deal with, if I allow myself to read newspapers, magazines and watch TV.
:lol: Hum, yeah current events can make anybody want to pull their hair out. That also is a toe in, foot in, leg in kind of experience.
In the news sensational things blow over and then something else takes it's place again.
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This sounds sort of silly. Some people believe in the afterlife and divine, god, heaven, purpose, a reason for life etc, white light, near death experience type stuff where all their loved ones will "meet them on the other side to help them cross over". So are the Narcissists supposed to be there to help us cross over---- :o Will they meet us on the other side....
I don't really believe in these things, I tend to think it's childish thinking and that people are just animals like the rest of the mammals. I don't think there is an after life but I wonder for the people that really do believe these things did they never have a Narcissist in their life? To follow the idea through about the afterlife and reconnecting with "loved ones". Then what happens is when we get to heaven we never see the Nar person ever again?? I know it's silly but having a Nar parent probably contributes to my sense that there is no god. When I think of people who would meet me on the other side...I don't see my family....how could I feel so different about my family compared to other people. It's a different world view--even a different after-life view.
I know it's ridiculous and strange to think about. I just couldn't help but to write it out.
A guy that I had a class with years ago was the closest and only relative to go to his cousins hospital bed side after a car accident.The cousin passed away and the guy said that right when his cousin passed away he could see spirits in the room of people from the other side. I believe he did see this. I try to be open minded, I don't know if he was having a hallucination or if he did see spirits. I don't believe in an afterlife but I don't rule it out 100%. It makes me wonder though.People have these thoughts maybe as a comfort. Yet it wouldn't be a comfort for the nar people to be there or other relatives so does that cause my mind to be more realistic and just say feh....no heaven....no light....and logically then no meaning.
I'm sure hard core religious people would say that nar people are whole on the other side, they don't have a PD. that the PD only manifests in this material world. Tired goodnight.
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Maybe it's simply too much stress = a type of physical/emotional paralysis of sorts. Sort of an emotional threshold point that is too much for the nervous system. Basically people who are "depressed" are sick just like having a flu. I don't think its caused by a chemistry defect thing in the brain. I think it is simple stress/distress. Isn't this very simple and how did this get sort of turned around into a congenital defect of the brain chemistry.
Interesting that you brought this up. I just read something last week, a series of studies I think, that seemed to "suggest" the same thing at the conclusion. Where it overlaps for me, is that even by restricting calories and being physically active... I seem to add more pounds than lose them. For awhile, I just said, OK I'm 55... this is just natural aging. EXCEPT - that I never had a tendency to gain weight. Sort of like one of those babies that are never chubby & roly-poly... I could stuff my face and never, ever gain an inch or a pound - not even through pregnancy. And I never worked out or was involved in organized sports any more than I was required to be.
I've been interested for awhile in the mind-body connection and experienced first-hand the benefits to my nervous system from tai chi. But I'd never had any interest in diets or their theories. Never applied to me. Once I started reading, I got frustrated pretty quickly - because there's a lot of contradictory ideas, folk myths, quasi-science and even nutritional docs and neuroscientists seemed to cancel every promising idea out. Well, being a long time reader of Prevention I picked up a few things to look at - and even there, I kept seeing different systems and it started me thinking that there are different sets of physical problems; like different metabolism or physical "types". So, I broke down and bought the book on the Hormone Diet -- along with another one on Chinese Medicine. I've using herbs, and learning how... all the way back to Twiggy's time frame... it was just always in my environment. The doctor who wrote the book, kinda confirmed my idea that we are different "types", physically - and it's linked to the effect of these hormones on the brain.
Lupita posted something yesterday about how serotonin and dopamine are linked to whether someone is a pessimist or optimist and there wasn't anything one could do to change this, because it was genetic. The effects of living with N in a primary caregiver is practically speaking, just as deep and intertwined in our cells and brains. But in both situations, there is some science and there are doctors with some experience - using herbs to tweak our hormonal levels. These hormonal levels DO affect the functioning of the brain - and in turn, that level of functioning affects the physical body. This self-perpetuating cycle of existence CAN BE caused by life-long stress: i.e., having to live with a primary caregiver who's PD or N or just plain mentally ill and mean.
Even here - a bunch of us know that if we're flooded with a big anxiety attack or overwhelming helplessness - sometimes, just going for a walk will help lift it. The walk, the sunshine (vitamin D) and fresh air is a positive antidote to temper those old emotion-patterns. Lupita likes to dance; she feels more alive when she's dancing - it's that same chemical stimulus - response at work. But we don't really BELIEVE it's that simple. We can't really convince ourselves; we don't know how it works. And the feelings only change temporarily - according to our perception. But over time, I think there are small gradual (imperceptible) progressions that can become more permanent.
I'm not sure I believe all this, anyway. But, I am trying some things to see what happens. I simply got serious about taking my multivitamin everyday - and added a supplement for thyroid support. Next up, Omega 3s... because according to this system and knowing my own history... I have some inflammation issues that stress my immune system. And then there are a few more - working from biggest problem to the slightest. The book helps one self-identify the issues and can be supported with blood tests, too. But the Docs' idea is that each of us will need a different amount of time to bring those hormones back into balance - you won't take these supplements forever - and the process is slow and gradual, and not everyone needs everything. She walks one through the "trial & error" of seeing what works for you... without putting yourself even further out of whack. And of course, there is an exercise/activity component.
So, star... once Western medicine decided that the mind/emotions and body were separate things... they "forgot" the basic understanding that our emotions can affect our body... and vice versa. I think like you - that lifelong stress isn't the same thing as a brain defect or PD. And I suspect - I'm still learning what works for me - that what we need is simply a gentle shove in the right direction to get those hormone levels back in balance. My weight is still bouncing around - lose 2.5 lbs one day, gain it all back the next - but what I've noticed is that emotionally I FEEL better. Didn't really expect that. I feel like I have more energy, I want to do things that are more active, etc.
I'm still playing around with this... it seemed way too simple; the old "here, take this pill and magically all will be well". I'm still skeptical about that. But if I can start being more physically active, without pooping out right after starting... well, that's another microstep to the ultimate goal. And I can live with a side effect that makes me feel emotionally a bit clearer, calmer, more balanced at the same time, too!
(Disclaimer: one could view this really cynically as just another form of placebo effect. Having a really cynical side to me... helps me kinda keep those expectations in check. She's been showing up a lot lately (ironically) even as I start to feel "better".)
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This sounds sort of silly. Some people believe in the afterlife and divine, god, heaven, purpose, a reason for life etc, white light, near death experience type stuff where all their loved ones will "meet them on the other side to help them cross over". So are the Narcissists supposed to be there to help us cross over---- :o Will they meet us on the other side....
I don't really believe in these things, I tend to think it's childish thinking and that people are just animals like the rest of the mammals. I don't think there is an after life but I wonder for the people that really do believe these things did they never have a Narcissist in their life? To follow the idea through about the afterlife and reconnecting with "loved ones". Then what happens is when we get to heaven we never see the Nar person ever again?? I know it's silly but having a Nar parent probably contributes to my sense that there is no god. When I think of people who would meet me on the other side...I don't see my family....how could I feel so different about my family compared to other people. It's a different world view--even a different after-life view.
I know it's ridiculous and strange to think about. I just couldn't help but to write it out.
I don't think it's silly to think about at all. Eternity with the relatives sure doesn't sound like "heaven" to me... :? This may be a benefit of the N family experience. It gets us thinking about these issues instead of just accepting the institutional answers. Personally I don't believe there is any spiritual weight behind the isolated nuclear family organization, unless for whatever reasons the individuals can make something more out of it. Otherwise it's just "matter" and biology.
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Hmmm. Afterlife. OK, since no one really knows for sure, I'm gonna decide that my "real, ideal, mom" will show up to claim me!!
Maybe I really was switched at birth, you know? My best friend was born the same week, same hospital as me... and maybe both our lives would've been different.
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. it amounts to the fact that they are sooooooo alone in their delusional world that they hardly even experience normal emotions... therefore, they interact with other people... and exhibit all these bizarre behaviors to provoke those feelings we all know so well... and they absolutely are trying to FEEL, themselves through stimulating that emotion. So when you feel targeted, picked on, purposely ignored after giving in to pleading for a meeting or conversation... they are getting what they want - or think they want. They're generating those familiar feelings of anger, frustration, invisibility and even sometimes despair so they can figure out what the feelings are... and sorta feel, by remote control.
God, P.R. I can't thank you enough for the above. How can something so sick be so comforting? But I do find it oddly comforting. I wonder. . . Maybe those of use who are continuously scapegoated, nit-picked, prodded, poked, harassed are actually some of the most emotionally intelligent (or at least the most human) in our FOOs?
I feel so wound-up, hopeless, angry and shamed after a recent visit to my NM's house. The whole time I was there, NM would give exasperated sighs when I spoke or cut me off/position her body away when I tried to speak to her--all these passive aggressive cues. Then finally--to my total dismay and feelings of failure--I exploded, at which point it felt like I was feeling/expressing the anger she had been trying to express herself.
Anyway, what you said gives me hope. I tend to feel really guilty whenever I feel/express strong emotions around my family, who themselves act like emotionless zombies. They act like they feel nothing and walk around parroting everything my NM says. It's Dawn of the Freaking Dead around there, like NM has sucked out everyone's soul.
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Also on the subject of N-communication, I noticed anytime my NM talks about feelings she switches from first person to second person. Like, talking about a teething baby or a sick toddler she'll say: "You just feel so bad for them." (This, instead of saying "I feel so bad for him/her"). It could be a figure of speech or it could be her poker 'tell.' Almost like she's acknowledging that she can't feel the emotions herself, but she sort of knows what other people ("you") feel in similar situations.
Also, does the N in anyone else's life like to tell other people what they think or feel? My NM does this all the time! And it makes me crazy! She's always, always wrong when she tries to tell me what I'm feeling. I'm assuming that's because it's a projection of what she's thinking. For instance, she's just told me: "You have a problem with me because you expect me to be a perfect, model person." Seems to me that she's the one who thinks she's perfect/feels she's perfect/created some cold, false, bulletproof facade so other people will value her.
Maaan. . . I hate N-communication. I always feel like I'm interrupting people who are talking to themselves. Get the same sensation with my Dad and sister that I do with NM. Like everyone just repeats the same sound bites all the time, tells the same grandiose stories. It's so scripted/unspontaneous, I feel like there ought to be a laugh track and an on-air sign.
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It's so scripted/unspontaneous, I feel like there ought to be a laugh track and an on-air sign.
And after the show is over, it feels like a huge waste of time, huh? No one to one, shared space of "being together"... no chance to be the one who is cared about, respected enough to be listened to, or even acknowledged... the "audience" is just another necessary prop to the script.
I do recognize my Nm in the use of the second person voice... and for sure, she STILL tries to tell me (and everyone else) what they do and SHOULD feel. Just like Twoapenny's confrontation with her mom... mine was related to this particular projection... sort of her feeling out what she was supposed to feel, when my Dad took a turn for the worse. Her direct words were: "I know you feel you should..." and I cut her off and screamed into the phone that she had absolutely NO IDEA how I felt, I wasn't going to tell her, and it's not possible for one person to know, see or otherwise "feel" another person's feelings.
Then I hung up and had to sit for a while, until I stopped shaking.
It's OK to walk out of plays and movies, when you know how it's going to end and you're really not into the production, at all.
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It's OK to walk out of plays and movies, when you know how it's going to end and you're really not into the production, at all.
I love this. And, yes, it's probably much healthier to walk out than it is to stand up and throw popcorn at the scream, all whilest shouting, "AAAGGGH!! These actors are so stilted!!! This plot is so shallow, cliche, cruel and predictable!!!" (To my shame, horror and feelings of failure, this is sort of how I ended my last visit with FOO.)
It enrages me that your NM tried to tell you how you felt over your father's health. As if the news alone wasn't painful enough to deal with without her interjecting.
That's what I hate about Ns--I always get the feeling that my NM kicks me hardest when I'm down, physically hurt or emotionally grieving--but what you've said helps me to have more compassion for them. I guess what's painful or terrifying for us is painful and terrifying for them too because it draws their attention to the humanity they're missing.
Kay x
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Also on the subject of N-communication, I noticed anytime my NM talks about feelings she switches from first person to second person. Like, talking about a teething baby or a sick toddler she'll say: "You just feel so bad for them." (This, instead of saying "I feel so bad for him/her"). It could be a figure of speech or it could be her poker 'tell.' Almost like she's acknowledging that she can't feel the emotions herself, but she sort of knows what other people ("you") feel in similar situations.
Growing up as a kid my father always talked to me this way in the second person like you point out above.
For a long time I thought it was correct speaking/correct english to talk like this. Then I noticed one time when I was speaking in second person like this one of my co-workers seemed to dislike it and I sort of switched to first person.
I always thought of speaking in second person in terms of --I don't know almost like the person is making a general statement rather than a personal statement or something.
It's sort of confusing though when a person uses second person and really means first person.
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So I read an article that makes a line between normal or standard social Narcissism or Healthy Narcissism compared to pathological Narcissism.
So of course there is a part of me that says why am I the target of the so called Narcissism in my family...and it even makes me wonder what they do is "healthy Narcissism"
But it leads me on to something else. Somewhere on this board somebody mentioned a while ago that there is a cooresponding personality disorder that gets triggered by the Narcissism. Is that like an inferiority issue or what is that PD called?
Because it seems that maybe people who didn't grow up as targets of their parents personality disorders are less reactive to "healthy Narcissism/social Narcissism" whatever that is. If a person has a web of NAR issues in their FOO then it makes them more susceptible to Nar people later in life like it triggers something??
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Also, does the N in anyone else's life like to tell other people what they think or feel?
I bet that if you try to correct the N when the N is telling you what you think or feel--that you get a vacant sort of response or I don't know what kind of response you get. But N's are not open to clarifying to make sure both people are really on the same page as far as communication and understanding goes. At least that is what I have noticed. There is no openess to understanding in the communication process. I think probably healthier communication happens when both people are seeking to understand each other a little better.
Sometimes I think the Nar- person does get it like in my mothers's case but the lack of clarifing or openness towards the other is sort of like an insolent brat-ishness. Kind of like: "I"M NOT GOING TO LISTEN TO YOU!"
I mean in telling another person what they should think or feel it is sort of saying the same thing "I'M NOT GOING TO LISTEN TO YOU!"
What I notice is that my Nar-mother never ever says she is sorry.
If I ever am direct in saying what I think the truth of the situation is--the Nar people say that I'm trying to use guilt on them and they get very angry and mean.
The only good thing about my relationships with my relatives getting so bad is that there really is no more pretense of caring or pretense that I am a family member. Growing up as a kid and teenager I always intuitively felt but didn't understand these things, I felt invisible and insignificant and rejected but my mother demanded that the facade was kept up. I guess it was the facade to the rest of the family that she was really acting like a parent when she wasn't. The "everything is okay facade".
IT really was a lie. So I look back and I talk to my inner teenager and I say: "Yeah, you were right all along"
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I get the bouncing screen thing at the bottom of my box so I'm making lots of entries here.
So if one is the target of Narcissism by their FOO. Does that mean that one does not develop a healthy Narcissism.
I mean I have thought: "Well if Narcissism works well for them, maybe I should try to be more Narcissistic."
To me this just means like being more aggressively selfish or something. Like being less socially polite-like trying to be more manipulative and dishonest.
It strikes me that the few times I have actually been dishonest to my mother it stands out in my mind as a very purposeful decision. I have rarely been dishonest to her. When I have told her personal things she tells her husband and the rest of the family...she then comes back to me and tells me that she has told everybody and she laughs like it's a joke. So she has also discouraged me from confiding in her--and I think that is pretty weird between a mother and daughter.
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Hey Star - are you thinking of the pathological caretaking personality? The one that "needs to be needed"... by an N - because that's the ONLY interaction/attention allowed in that relationship? This is part & parcel of the co-dependent style of relating. (you don't really strike me as the co-dependent type*...)
Or are you thinking about the FOO scapegoat role?
A couple more styles of so-called "coping" with that kind of emotional abuse come to mind, too... but these are the closest to what it sounds like (to me) that you're trying to the right "word" for...
* and I guess there is a lot of variation in co-dependence... because I think self-sabotage is one way some folks react to Ns -- living "down to" what they've always been told - and felt about themselves - that FOO relationship. This seems like co-dependence to me, because it's one way we pretzel ourselves into being something we're really not -- so that we can belong. That's the generalized "we" there... professor-crap-speak again.
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me again.
You mentioned something about Healthy Narcissism and I forgot I want to explore that a little more. I've wondered for a looong time, what the difference was, where the line is... precisely because of the guilty, it's kinda "bad" to "be like them" feeling you mentioned. But since I've also kinda branched out into social science in my reading this also applies there, too. There's Dr G's thread about Facebook and the online personas that people develop for themselves. There's my getting out and into 3-D social situations and my experiences (good/bad) with that.
I'm kinda thinking now, that HealthyN = self-respect, self-care, and that dreaded fuzzy word: self-esteem.
I know I struggled with working on all of those, precisely because I had suffered the direct emotional effects of being in a relationship with Nparents who didn't have a healthy sense of N. And I'm sure I overdid it (healthyN) and went to the other extreme sometimes, while trying to figure out for myself where that "line" was between healthy/unhealthy. Here's my current working idea of how to figure out where that line is: healthyN has boundaries. Interpersonal boundaries are absolutely essential to having any kind of CO-munication or relationship... because there has to be a distinct "me" and a distinct, separate "you".
So, to develop that first definition a little more:
HealthyN = self-respect, self-care, and that dreaded fuzzy word: self-esteem UNTIL it ceases to recognize that other people are allowed to have this also and that the relationship between the two people isn't competitive - one better than the other or healthier than the other - even when they disagree in thoughts, emotions or beliefs. There is an unspoken understanding - maybe it's even an empathetic understanding - that it's perfectly OK to disagree, believe different things and that one doesn't reject the other person (or try to coerce them to be the "same")... there is mutual respect, mutual care - they could be best friends! - and mutual esteem. the PD-level N's can't participate at that level - it's so threatening to their self-image they simply can't allow this. Even when the pretend they are.
The way this relates to social science for me, is in watching politics - local, state, national and global. But that's way off topic here.
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Ahhh, as weird as it sounds, it's always reassuring to come here and KNOW there are folks experiencing what I am experiencing. I get so worn out from hearing the same questions repeated over and over...
my NH is always waiting for the "yes" instead of the "no". If I tell him the answer is STILL "no", he gets angry and wants to know why I can't communicate with HIM. Knowing this board is here makes things a little less nuts for me. No one else could possibly understand these things without having an N in their lives.
NMOMs are the worst for sure, when you are the scape goat anyway, I used to think it would be great to be the golden child until I realized my siblings were as out of touch with themselves as she was. They seem to be repeating her in some way with themselves and their children. My NM would also use what I confided in her to devalue me to anyone she could get to listen to her...it was heart breaking for me and had to confuse my siblings.
Does anyone else answer their N's questions, only to have them say you didn't tell them about whatever the conversation involved. My NH holds the same conversations with me over and over. The subject usually involves him SEEMING interested in the kids or me and it doesn't involve HIM.
Does your N make a big deal out of promising you something and talk it to death and NEVER do it?
These are the things that bother me the most. He pretends or doesn't remember anything about it if I mention the fact that we have had this conversations on MANY occasions. Then...I need to pay for bringing THAT up.
Both my NM (did) and NH (does) tell me how I feel too. The worst of it is when they tell other people in my life that I feel the way they "think", or more like pretend I feel. So many times I have heard from other people how "I" feel according to them because of what my N has told them, my N sure does spend an abundant amount of time convincing others of non-truths. So you know it's not an accident. He doesn't spend much time telling the truth, that's for sure. I find my NH talking to himself way too much too, like he's convincing himself of the lies he tells himself. He has managed to come between me and our children so often they don't believe what he tells them anymore. At one time they did and it was like he threw us into HELL...it took some time to straiten it out. Thankfully his story kept changing as to what he "really" meant, after a while it went to he couldn't remember. Then, The almighty....never happened.
I didn't get a chance to read all of the post here, I will when I have more time. Thanks for letting me vent! AND, thanks for understanding. <3
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Hey Star - are you thinking of the pathological caretaking personality? The one that "needs to be needed"... by an N - because that's the ONLY interaction/attention allowed in that relationship? This is part & parcel of the codependent style of relating. (you don't really strike me as the codependent type*...)
Hum, actually I don't know, but thank you for the possible suggestions of what it could be. It was mentioned by somebody on the board at one point that Nar people do attract or trigger other PD people but it wasn't stated. Or that Nar parents tend to raise Nar children or an alternative type and it could be like what you are saying above the pathological caretaking personality "needs to be needed".
Certainly I was thinking something self-depricating and sort of an "I'm not worthy" personality.
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What is a person who doesnt have healthy Narcissism? Is that "over sensitive"?
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I'm sorry I couldn't remember that piece of info you were looking for. I'm sure you're right tho - there is a sort of "plug & play" personality for Ns. I think I just remembered my own version of it. :oops:
As to your other question - I still don't feel like I have a good enough grasp of what HealthyN is. Getting there - getting clearer - but not to where I feel like I could guide someone else. Maybe that's the case for most people - it's a day to day thing - better some days; not so good on others.
But as for the "over-sensitive" moniker? That's usually just a nasty name-calling putdown to someone who DARES have real human feelings... from someone who wouldn't know what a real feeling was, if it smacked them in the face. People with healthy N have plenty of feelings - about themselves, and also about and for others. That kind of thing infuriates Ns... or requires a putdown, so that the N can feel better about him or herself. It's the only way they can.
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Thats okay P. 8)
So if a person trys to be Narcissistic is that the same as growing up a "healthy Narcissist"?
Narcissism is somthing that *we*/ or one is not aware of though right?
What does a Narcissist brain look like? What are Narcissists doing to other's brains?
How is Narcissism any different than plain old dominance and competition?
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So if a person trys to be Narcissistic is that the same as growing up a "healthy Narcissist"?
Probably NOT. Not totally sure what you mean here, but if we swap in "self-interest" for "Narcissist"... it makes a little more sense to me.
I think the term you're looking for is "healthy Narcissism"... not "narcissist". "Healthy Narcissism" is just one trait or personality characteristic of a self (and I didn't get this until I changed the word to "self-interest"). Not sure there are any healthy Narcissists. Technically speaking, if one qualifies for the PD label, one is by default, not healthy. Other people might have a different definition. That's OK by me... this works for me, right now... and there might very well be something better out there.
Narcissism is somthing that *we*/ or one is not aware of though right?
If you mean, about ourselves - that might be one way to tell someone with healthyN apart from the malevolent kind; N's - in my experience - have almost NO self-awareness in the area of how they impact others - and you point it out to them, at your own risk. Coming out of my self-fog, I discovered I was overly-obsessively- concerned with how I impacted others... and I didn't accept the premise that it was OK for me to look out for myself, nurture myself, take care of myself, have a self-interest to protect. Once I did, like a teenager in a growth spurt, I was kind awkward and gawky - LOL! Flailed around a lot and went too far to the other extreme for my own comfort a couple of times, requiring apologies... and lord knows I bemoaned the difficulty of finding my "comfort zone", here, a lot! That wasn't real dignified in someone who was about 50, but it was important for me to figure it out. It DOES settle down to what's normal for yourself... and because "normal" is a range and not a specific mark on a target... it also varies from day to day, life stage to life stage. I suppose one might consider that the "normal" learning process - trial & error - of developing healthy N... and it doesn't really matter what age one learns this, tho' it's like learning a language - probably much easier at younger age.
What does a Narcissist brain look like? What are Narcissists doing to other's brains?
HMMM. I don't think anyone's studied this exact set of questions. As to the latter question (again, my thoughts are) that growing up w/N in a parent - while the brain is developing, influences certain kinds of brain-neurotransmitter connections... what we usually call mental/emotional "habits" - those habitual thoughts that generate the same old feelings... and even affect one's behavior. It is possible to change those habits - it's a lotta work. That's one reason I decided to celebrate even the micro-successes I could think up... it was the only way to keep myself going up the change-curve and not give up in exhaustion & frustration, until I could see myself at a plateau of change. That plateau was built of things of like: not smoking each & every time hubs did (pavlovian chameleon type things)... brushing my teeth twice a day until it felt weird to NOT brush before going to bed... to shake up and re-create my self-care and self-soothing strategies... and to loosen the "set in stone" nature of those brain connections that a person can't directly "edit" or repair or "put right".
How is Narcissism any different than plain old dominance and competition?
See the self-awareness observation, in the second question. Also, I think normal folks have some limits and boundaries regarding dominance and competition. Taking turns, not "needing" to dominate all the time... not needing to always "win" in order to have fun, feel good about oneself, etc. Letting other make "the rules" and switching roles constructively... all of which recognizes that "other people" are equally significant and real human beings - not simply objects to prop up an Nself. A non-N's self-respect and self-care and emotional state doesn't completely depend on the approval, respect and adulation of other people. The non-N isn't completely self-sufficient, either - they still have needs for emotional and social interaction with other people. But how the non-N thinks/sees/feels about him or herself doesn't hinge completely on their "outer" image - how others see/feel/thinks about him or her. (THAT was circular... there has to be an easier way to say that.)
Of course - these are just my thoughts & observations & experiences and not a definitive, expert opinion. Sometimes, the expert opinions don't give enough credit to people's actual experiences, but then actual experiences are one-off, subjective anecdotes and aren't one size fits all. Both are important in their own way. The next person along, can expand on my ideas, I'm sure. In the meantime, I hope this helps.
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What is a person who doesnt have healthy Narcissism? Is that "over sensitive"?
There is an issue related to sensitivity. In order to survive in the N environment, we may have had to be overly sensitive to the needs of the N's. So we develop an acute sensitivity to needs of others in general. And then we may not develop the "healthy narcissism" to understand that their excessive needs aren't our problem.
I believe I've suffered much from this dynamic. The FOO learned how to play on my sensitivity to their needs. In effect, I made their problems my problems. But in later years I'm recognizing it's healthy to get somewhat "narcissistic" and learn to put them out of my head. Physically they are a long way away, but I'm still working on the internal process.
I've also wondered a lot about the narcissistic brain. With the new scanning technology some interesting studies could be done. After many years of FOO observation, I'm sure there are some distinct patterns to Nish mental processing. For instance, my father automatically opposes nearly any input from another person. And he does it so fast it seems to an unconscious reflex. It's as if he's actually wired to make other voiceless.
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There is an issue related to sensitivity. In order to survive in the N environment, we may have had to be overly sensitive to the needs of the N's. So we develop an acute sensitivity to needs of others in general. And then we may not develop the "healthy narcissism" to understand that their excessive needs aren't our problem.
VERY good point, SL - and well put, too.
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Also on the subject of N-communication, I noticed anytime my NM talks about feelings she switches from first person to second person. Like, talking about a teething baby or a sick toddler she'll say: "You just feel so bad for them." (This, instead of saying "I feel so bad for him/her"). It could be a figure of speech or it could be her poker 'tell.' Almost like she's acknowledging that she can't feel the emotions herself, but she sort of knows what other people ("you") feel in similar situations.
I never though of this, but this is exactly what NM does.
Also, Salsa, our conversations are the same all the time. She insists I like things I don't like. She never listens to what I say or overrides what I say with her own beliefs and ideas. So talking to NM is pointless and I try to avoid it as much as possible. I love this thread! Very helpful!
Beth
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Maybe the static communication flow is part of the power/control issue.
It sort of makes sense.
If they have a lack of interest, need for control, don't acknowledge the OTHER....the conversation would be very flat.
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Yes - definitely flat! Also - I went back and lookd over the posts. NM definitely "assigns" me emotions. She tells me how I "should" feel in every situation and completely ignores how I do feel. Is that what you were describing?
NM: "You must be so excited to do that."
ME: "No, I don't like doing that."
NM: "Oh, bout you must. It's so fun. It will be so great."